Very vulnerable and feel afraid. False allegations against me.

[Ash]

I can see all your points mountain goat. Her solicitor has been agreeing child arrangements and if you can get to see the kids regularly that is good and maybe you're wary of rocking the boat with that. Since then though, this NMO application has gone in. Now there are a couple of things there. If these arrangements for you to see the kids regularly go ahead, then it kind of undermines a lot of her allegations - if she thought you were an issue then why let the kids be with you? On the other hand I think that's what the NMO is about - to have an excuse to stop you seeing the kids - didn't she accuse you of saying inappropriate things to them? So timing is definitely important. I assume she has refused mediation? Because without a mediation sign off (ie if mediation doesn't go ahead) then you can't submit a C100 anyway. See what happens this week-end. ie if you get to see the kids, or if her NMO is a reason she has opted for to prevent that happening.

What I don't understand fully is if I contest the orders or if they are granted to her, you all say I will have zero contact with the children. Why is that?
Is this a legal thing or because she could choose not to let me see them?

The system is quite strange. Unless the Mother agrees for you to see them then the court won't order it while investigations are going on. It's all very wrong - it's like being presumed guilty until the allegations are dismissed.

So I can see the softly softly approach of getting the child arrangements going via the solicitors is a start. Maybe see what happens in the next week - if you do get to see the kids regularly. But if you haven't had a MIAM (first mediation appointment) then have one. You go to that on your own and explain the situation to the mediator. They then invite the ex to mediation (If you agree to that). If the ex declines mediation then the mediator gives you a sign off form. That lasts for four months and that is what is needed to submit a C100 for Child Arrangements. So to have that ready could be useful - so you can apply when you need to without having to wait for that - as it lasts four months. Sorry I can't remember if you've already had one/tried mediation.

On the other hand, if you;re going softly softly, your ex's solicitors may realise you are thinking of applying to court, if you invite her to mediation so they may pre-emptively retaliate again - as they have just done with this NMO - although I'm not sure there are many other things they can throw at you now. But there is an option to go to the MIAM and just ask to be signed off (ie not invite the ex to mediation) and then they wouldn't know, and to be honest, in this situation, I think that would be the best thing to do. Mediation wouldn't be seen as suitable anyway because she is claiming abuse and can use that to say she is exempt from mediation. So if you tell the mediator, it's not suitable for mediation as she's accused you of abuse and just ask to be signed off, then you are prepared to submit a C100 quickly as and when needed.

The other thing to realise is that this is about money and legal aid. There is no legal aid for family court, unless there is abuse. Solicitors for ex's, sadly, encourage them to exaggerate minor normal things to be abusive behaviour - as then they can get free lawyers for all the court cases. It's all wrong but it's the way the system is.

But apologies if you think your solicitor is doing a good job with the negotiatons over regular time with the children and I hope that is what now happens. Whatever her solicitor agreed to, actions speak louder than words and they have now put this NMO application in.

 

[MountainGoat]

Thankyou Ash for your ongoing help. It is much appreciated.

Yes, she refused mediation and because it was me who organised it (even though we'd both mentioned it) she got peed off about it as she wasnt the one "in control" and I had been the one to sort it instead of her. I had my mediation and have just applied for the certificate. £60 for a certificate - daylight robbery!
She was probably advised by her solicitor not to do mediation as she didnt have to due to DV.
However all this sorting out things for the children could have been dealt with a lot quicker and without any nasty misunderstandings if we had mediated. She was not thinking about putting the children first and I've made a good note of that.

I also have her solicitors notes and text messages where she agrees that I should have regular access to the children so am keeping hold of all of that as this would contradict everthing else that she is saying.

you are totally right....she even accused me of hurting the kids. I wouldnt let someone anywhere near my kids if that is was the other way round. She got told by the police there was zero evidence of this. Yet she herself has been reported for harming the kids so why they dont look into that I have no idea!

 

[MountainGoat]

Hi guys,

Just a quick question....So I need to go and appear in court next week to answer the Non occupation and Non Molestation order. Basically to just answer if I accept or not. There won't be any look into evidence or anything at this stage I believe.
Do I need my solicitor with me or should I do this alone? Just wondering if I can save money or if they need to be there.
Thanks.

 

[mva]

At my non mol 1st hearing they discussed contact and I got supervised contact. You might need a barrister for this. But it is an expensive 20 minutes. If you do contest the non mol then they will set a fact finding 2 or 3 days in a couple of months time.

 

[MountainGoat]

Thankyou. I will take my solicitor with me in case then.

Sorry for the list of questions..... Her dad (who knows nearly nothing as she never told him much) is believing all sorts of things against me.
It is peeing me off as he is not aware o f the real situation. Can I message him and set the record straight.

 

[mva]

Thankyou. I will take my solicitor with me in case then.

Sorry for the list of questions..... Her dad (who knows nearly nothing as she never told him much) is believing all sorts of things against me.
It is peeing me off as he is not aware o f the real situation. Can I message him and set the record straight.

I wouldn’t any correspondence can be used against you down the line. Coercive & controlling behaviour could include contacting exes family members. Not worth the risk.

 

[MountainGoat]

I wouldn’t any correspondence can be used against you down the line. Coercive & controlling behaviour could include contacting exes family members. Not worth the risk.

Thanks. I guess I needed to hear that. I'll try and keep my annoyance inside then. i can't stand when people who have no clue of an actual situation chip in with their views and that is exactly what he does. Fustrating to the max!
But going to focus on seeing the kids. Planning on taking them out this weekend.

 

[Ash]

Let us know if things go ahead with the kids this week-end. While it seems instinctive to want to contest something, if you're falsely accused, it can be counterintuitive. It's the law rather than real life. Did you get any further legal advice about an undertaking?

 

[Peanut 21]

Don't contact her dad. It's tempting to set the record straight but no matter how old your ex is, her dad will be sticking up for her.
He is simply just being her dad. I'm sure you'd be the same with your kids
Hopefully in time he'll see what's going on and may tell his daughter to be reasonable.

 

[Ash]

A little bit of information here about the difference between an undertaking and an nmo. This is from a domestic abuse charity (and there is a similar piece from a chambers that is taking the woman's view as well).

They see an undertaking as a much lesser thing than an nmo. In other words, an undertaking is better for you and an nmo is better for your ex. If you breach an nmo you can be imprisoned. An undertaking is harder to enforce. And quicker to resolve so things can move onto child arrangements.

There've been a few stories where Dads with nmo's have been contacted by their ex, asking them to go round saying they want to talk about getting back together. Dad goes round and is immediately arrested for breaching the nmo. It's a trap basically. I worry slightly for you as I know you didn't want the marriage to end.

I can't give legal advice on what to do and I can understand why a Dad would want to clear there name and go through the whole process and be exonerated of the allegations. However a fact find often doesn't exonerate you. Often there is not enough evidence on either side and the Judge just decides on the balance of probabilities - ie the Judge decides who he thinks is telling the truth or in some cases he may just be a bit biased or warm to one party or the other (IMO). Fact findings often go horribly wrong - and if they find against you then the chances are you won't get a child arrangements order for anything more than indirect contact only and be required to do a domestic abuse perpetrators course of some kind. This can be gruelling for some Dads who have done nothing wrong. Not only are they expected to do a perpetrators course, but they are expected to admit to something they haven't done.

It can go on for a couple of years sometimes, and meanwhile not seeing your children (if represented you might be lucky and get to see them in a contact centre for a couple of hours a fortnight).

Birmingham on here contested a fact find, although made allegations also, and at every hearing, I believe, his ex raised new allegations. And he is about five years in now.

All this is delay from seeing your children.

I think if it was me I would push for an undertaking (and you would need a lawyer or they might not accept an undertaking). It doesn't admit guilt, it's just a promise to the court not to do various things.

Either way you are not going to be allowed to contact your ex or go to the house. Although it's harder for an ex to enforce an undertaking, a breach of it will count against you in a child arrangements hearing.

Sadly, although your cctv stuff may have been innocuous, the culture of "coercive and controlling" behaviours is big these days and it could easily be classed as controlling behaviour. And you can't prove it isn't. Proving something isn't about expecting people to believe you, it's about hard evidence, and often there isn't any you can show.

If you can get a direct access barrister in time, instead of the solicitor, it would be better.

A Worrying Rise in the Use of Undertakings?

For some time now I, and several of my colleagues at NCDV, have been noticing victims and survivors of domestic abuse are being fobbed off in the civil/family courts.

www.ncdv.org.uk

Undertakings, Non Molestation Orders & Restraining Orders: What's the difference? - Stoke Newington Chambers

Needing a non molestation or restraining order and offered an undertaking? They're not all the same, so how do you get the protecton you need?

stokenewingtonchambers.co.uk

These also talk about cross undertakings and if a barrister can get you one of those, it waters down your undertaking to a degree. Bear in mind both these links are aimed at women who are victims of abuse.

 

[mva]

I would second what ash said . I contested a non- mol. My solicitor advised it at the time. It was combined with CAO, ended in 3 day fact find , which I lost. Dragged on for 2 years, cost 40K in legal fees and 20K cost and meant I only had supervised contact. I wish I had accepted an undertaking.

I wanted to clear my name . It backfired

 

[Ash]

I am really sorry about that mva. Sounds like your solicitor didn't look at the bigger picture and charged money along the way.

 

[mva]

I am really sorry about that mva. Sounds like your solicitor didn't look at the bigger picture and charged money along the way.

Partly my fault. I believed I could win the fact find as a LIP and save money. Didn’t realise how much depends on the judge opinion rather than evidence. The high legal bill was clearing up the mess of lost fact find.

 

[Ash]

Not your fault - it's an absolute minefield.

 

[MountainGoat]

Thankyou all for sharing your experiences.
To be honest with you I have very high anxiety and am absolutely panicking about being an absolute wreck in court.
I am not looking forward to it one bit and already worrying.

On a positive note I picked up the kids last night. They spent the night with me and I’m taking them out today and also to their sports training.

So basically if anyone says anything about kids not being safe with me then I have plenty of evidence that shows she lets me spend time with them. There’s even contradicting stories where she reported me for assaulting the kids one day when we were out to then letting me see them the minute this allegation got NFA.
So if you had any real concerns you wouldn’t let your kids anywhere near that person!

I would hope that my ex would realise the importance the kids see me for their well being.
Her solicitor letter recommended I pick them up from school but her non mol order says I’m not allowed near the school. Yet another mess up!

I hope that she will see that this is getting us nowhere and that we need to prioritise the kids.

You are right I didn’t want the marriage to end but only as I believe she is not thinking straight at the moment due to all the lies.
She has indeed accused me of inappropriate talking to the children which is false. They haven’t seen me all week and naturally have questions. I have not lied to them. She told them I didn’t want to come home and would be moving away, she told them to lie to me, and there is also evidence on a child’s medical record that she has hit them.

Not to forget the allegations she made didn’t go anywhere. I hope they look at that.

 

[mva]

Have you got a barrister for court?

 

[Pj66]

I hope that she will see that this is getting us nowhere and that we need to prioritise the kids.

@mountain goat, she will not see anything, she is thinking perfectly straight.

You really really need to understand that she does not want to fix anything, at all! She feels not having you in her life or the kids lives is best for her and the kids (doesnt make it true though!) If you continue to keep thinking she is going to come around, and that she has once ounce of care for your needs, wants, or wellbeing, its going to become very tough for you. You need to grieve any notion of happy families or co-parenting happily ever after with this woman.

you will be ok though, play the game, pick yourself up & dust yourself off, and the lies will come to surface eventually. Like you said, she claims you hit the kids but allows you to take them out? its all fluff and will be seen through as long as you dont react. Stop focusing on what she is doing or what see thinks, remove all emotion, treat her remarks and behaviour with a subtle form of contempt in your mind, treat it as if its childish and you can never be with someone who is so immature and irresponsible, focus on your children only, she is merely an object being obstructive to your relationship with your children. Work with your solicitor, avoid any contact or sincere, emotional communication with her, or anyone in her family.

You are right I didn’t want the marriage to end but only as I believe she is not thinking straight at the moment due to all the lies.

What you are saying here doesnt make sense but i can sense there still a lot of emotion invovled. She is thinking perfectly straight, the lies are because she is thinking perfectly straight, its not accidental it not a case of:" she isnt thinking straight so took over the house, made 100 allegations and took a non-mol on me..., but she will come around"

She knows what she is doing, it is her intention to have the house, max finacials and maximum custody, so she can move on with her life without you in it or at the very least the bare minimum. She doesnt want to be married anymore, has zero feelings and she wants the best outcome, for her and her alone. She will pretend to be nice and try and reel you in to get something now and then , get your guard down so she can pounce again to get what she wants. Dont let her do you like that. She will do this at your weakest moments for her maximum benefit. Never show her a single emotion ever again, she doesnt deserve it. your head is spinning "how" and "why", but its like a light switch, she has permanently turned it into off mode.

I know this will be a hard thing to comprehend about how can someone you cared for do this, but you need to focus your mind on the process and forget about her completely. What im saying may come across as harsh, but its the brutal honest truth and reality you need to accept, to protect yourself, your children and to get the best outcome for "you"! you can do this, dont sweat it.

 

[Ash]

Her solicitor letter recommended I pick them up from school but her non mol order says I’m not allowed near the school. Yet another mess up!

Not a mess up - dirty tactics. They pretend to look reasonable by saying you can pick them up from school, while in the background are setting up an NMO to prevent that happening. That is what it's like when an ex has a solicitor. Having said that they do take instructions from your ex as well as give advice.

That's great you've had the kids with you this week-end. mva I think he's taking his solicitor to the hearing. A barrister might be better, but the solicitor knows child arrangements are happening at least. Please don't go on your own as you might break down emotionally, and while this sounds strange, courts don't like that. They think people are faking it. They like calm, measured responses to things with a lot of logic and fact. Your lawyer could speak for you. But the solicitor would need you to decide whether you're going to contest or go for an undertaking. Maybe they could propose an undertaking but have the school pick up element removed.

 

[Ash]

And whatever you do, don't accuse her back (like say it's recorded she hit the children) or it could become a fact find - when both parties are accusing. Do you have evidence she hit the children? In writing? From a professional like a GP or social services? If so then keep that under your hat and save it for a final hearing on child arrangements. If not, then don't even mention it or it'll be classed as "mud slinging" and go against you.

 

[MountainGoat]

Thankyou for your replies. I really appreciate it.

I have literally only had a few days until the court on Monday so do not have a barrister. To tell you the truth I don’t even know what one is so will have to look it up.
My solicitor is meeting me half an hour before to see what I’ve decided I want to do.

My ex initially said she didn’t want to involve courts and when questioned about it via a family member she mentioned this is what she was advised to do. Clearly many people are advising her.
I maybe was being optimistic but was hoping she would see sense and that this just makes matters worse.

The reason I mentioned I didn’t want the marriage to end is because I think she isn’t well. And it was clear she was saying very conflicting things to want a relationship and then saying she wanted to make plans for the future….. to then be doing this. So much didn’t add up.
I truly believe and she even said it numerous times, that she didn’t want this.
The fact it then got messy as we both went into defensive mode then meant it got nasty when it should have never got that far.

Or there is the theory that she planned it all along and she just kept me hanging there sweet talking me into her little plan.
Il never know.
I did (from knowing her past health) always want the best for her until now.

There is evidence she hit the kids. I read it in the case notes for the child social services meeting. I never knew about that until then.