Yes I do think I need to be more assertive when I pick her up and not to just let her refuse to come.
I have a few ideas of what to do today and things to say which will be respectful as always but less defeatist.
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Advice What can I do???
- Thread starter DB2021
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I have a few ideas of what to do today and things to say which will be respectful as always but less defeatist.
I don't think there is a big rush to write something personally, and it needs to be considered when the emotion has died down. Yes it's good to write something you don't send and get it off your chest. I've done that many times. But don't send them! Apart from anything else, it gives her power over you to know she has wound you up and upset you.
If sending anything ever, you need to think
a) What do I want to achieve from this?
b) Would putting something in writing, have some leverage and/or help build a case for me, if needed.
Hi Ash,
Yes I see that now I guess I was just very angry and upset last night so just wrote what I felt but I would never have sent it without asking advice first.
I’m in no rush to send anything and the social worker who was involved called me earlier and offered to arrange a call between us so I may take that up and rather than sending something just say it but then again not sure that’s the best idea either.
I do feel like I should send something at some point even if brief just to show that what has happened isn’t okay and it’s not what’s best for our daughter.
How and what I write though is another story as clearly above I’m way off how things should be written.
And I do think having sent something does give me some leverage in showing I’m communicating with ex and trying to solve things without the need for court etc.
Sometimes it is better to say nothing, and just try a few strategies in the background. But also be subtle in any communications. This is an ex relationship, there is a child in the middle, and unfortunately you and your ex have different needs in life. So it can never be just friendly. It can be civilised, polite or amicable - but you can't trust completely. That is the nature of separation and divorce. People have their own lives and agendas.
I will still have a think about something you could send, but maybe wait to see what happens today. You do still have a court order - is she following it? Why is it 12 today? Is that because she wanted to go back and your ex has suggested 12 today? And how long for?
I think what's happening with your daughter is quite complex. It may not be always that your ex is telling your daughter to be bad with you, but that your daughter is scared of upsetting Mum and has learned that to please Mum she has to reject Dad, and if she's happy with Dad she will get hurt - Mummy will stop being nice (and may even get rid of something she loves, like her pets). It's manipulation of a child and there is a saying about "don't negotiate with terrorists". Because they are terrorists.
It's very sad that your daughter is being put into this loyalty bind by your ex's behaviour. And it does sound complicated. A better court order, more defined, would be good - but also there is the behaviour causing upset and pressure to your child. The only thing I can say there (having been there) is the more time you can spend with your child, the more she will develop confidence and resilience, learned from you and by having a normal experience with you, without threats to get rid of something she loves. And she will begin to learn some critical thinking of her own and some strategegies of her own. And the less opportunity the ex has to manipulate her so she has more time away from a negative situation. This is where 50/50 orders can help.
I will still have a think about something you could send, but maybe wait to see what happens today. You do still have a court order - is she following it? Why is it 12 today? Is that because she wanted to go back and your ex has suggested 12 today? And how long for?
I think what's happening with your daughter is quite complex. It may not be always that your ex is telling your daughter to be bad with you, but that your daughter is scared of upsetting Mum and has learned that to please Mum she has to reject Dad, and if she's happy with Dad she will get hurt - Mummy will stop being nice (and may even get rid of something she loves, like her pets). It's manipulation of a child and there is a saying about "don't negotiate with terrorists". Because they are terrorists.
It's very sad that your daughter is being put into this loyalty bind by your ex's behaviour. And it does sound complicated. A better court order, more defined, would be good - but also there is the behaviour causing upset and pressure to your child. The only thing I can say there (having been there) is the more time you can spend with your child, the more she will develop confidence and resilience, learned from you and by having a normal experience with you, without threats to get rid of something she loves. And she will begin to learn some critical thinking of her own and some strategegies of her own. And the less opportunity the ex has to manipulate her so she has more time away from a negative situation. This is where 50/50 orders can help.
We posted at the same time. I'll think about a possible email, but yes speak to this social worker. Make a conscious effort not to be emotional and state to the social worker that everything was going very well and your daughter was happy, but then started getting quite a few Facetime calls from Mum and you overheard Mum saying she had got rid of daughter's rabbits and daughter became very upset, and also Mum was guilt tripping daughter - maybe she couldn't help herself but she was saying things like "the house is really quiet without you".
The social worker may speak to your ex. However be prepared for the fact your ex may have asked the social worker to call you to say "overnights aren't working and it needs more time blah blah". If that happens, stay calm and say you disagree, they were going very well but Mum's facetime calls caused disruption and upset.
The social worker may speak to your ex. However be prepared for the fact your ex may have asked the social worker to call you to say "overnights aren't working and it needs more time blah blah". If that happens, stay calm and say you disagree, they were going very well but Mum's facetime calls caused disruption and upset.
Yeah maybe saying nothing might be the best route but I’m just conscious of the fact ex uses I don’t communicate with her about things so don’t want to give her that anymore of that makes sense.
But whatever I send if I do I agree should be delicate and not argumentative.
It wasn’t ex that called social worker she had emailed yesterday asking how things were going so I explained what had happened and she called this morning.
I said pretty much want you said that it had been going very well until the FaceTime calls and that the things ex said weren’t helpful or appropriate. So she offered to arrange a mediation call with us and to have a think over the weekend about it.
Little one asked if I could pick her up at 12 and I should have her until Sunday if she does come today I’ll soon find out. See is she following it is a difficult one because yes she doesn’t actually stop me coming to get her it’s the things she’s saying to her that are causing the issues which is making little one not want to come so in that sense no.
It is very complicated but little one has shown by how things went the first 4 days that she is comfortable and happy away from mum and with me and if it hadn’t been for the FaceTime calls she would still be with me I’m sure of it. When I left my sisters she was so happy in the bath with her cousin and within 10minites of the call she wanted to go home.
To be honest, that is obvious to most people. Why wouldn't she be? It's normal. Kids are happy with whoever they are allowed to see. They are simply children. They are happy whichever parent they are with. They may miss one if they've been away longer than a week possibly but not always. They accept they will see the other parent again soon. And that is what I would have said. You will see Mummy again soon but for now we are having time together to have fun and then you'll have time with Mummy to have fun. I am sure Mummy misses you, just like I miss you when you're away but we know we will see you again soon, and it's not something little girls need to worry about - it's for adults to sort out.
By the way - how did your ex get the facetime calls? Presumably your daughter is too young to have her own phone. Did the ex call your phone and ask to speak to her? You don't have to answer. And can reply with a text. Busy right now but she's doing fine.
If you want to send something - it's tricky - to avoid making things worse, and also if someone is deliberately manipulating there are no words - but maybe something subtly diplomatic like this (but I have been there and found it better to say nothing but keep dealing with the child). Because you're having to play along with someone who is causing disruption. Telling them off won't do any good - they'll just accuse you of being hostile. Spelling out what the issue is won't do any good because they already know what they're doing. I'm not sure this is a situation for Biff messages. There doesn't actually need to be any communication providing the order is followed.
So you could play along a bit maybe to keep things evidenced.
"xxxxx was happy and settled with me this week, but became upset after your last Facetime call. I'm wondering if you realise that by saying the house is quiet without her, it makes her feel guilty and worry about you and obviously she was very upset when you said you'd got rid of her rabbits - even though you then said you were only joking. So of course she then wasn't happy and settled any more.
In future, rather than bring her to you, I will explain to her, that these are adult things and not for her to worry about and Mummy and I will sort things and she will see you soon. She should be allowed to enjoy time with both of us, without feeling guilty. I understand that you miss her when she's away - I do too, but be reassured that just because she is happy with me, doesn't mean she doesn't want to see you soon as well. She loves both of us equally."
What do you think? I have done such things myself, avoiding having to return to court in the hope I could actually appeal to some humanity but if there is an agenda, it is pointless.
So you could play along a bit maybe to keep things evidenced.
"xxxxx was happy and settled with me this week, but became upset after your last Facetime call. I'm wondering if you realise that by saying the house is quiet without her, it makes her feel guilty and worry about you and obviously she was very upset when you said you'd got rid of her rabbits - even though you then said you were only joking. So of course she then wasn't happy and settled any more.
In future, rather than bring her to you, I will explain to her, that these are adult things and not for her to worry about and Mummy and I will sort things and she will see you soon. She should be allowed to enjoy time with both of us, without feeling guilty. I understand that you miss her when she's away - I do too, but be reassured that just because she is happy with me, doesn't mean she doesn't want to see you soon as well. She loves both of us equally."
What do you think? I have done such things myself, avoiding having to return to court in the hope I could actually appeal to some humanity but if there is an agenda, it is pointless.
I wouldn't send anything just yet though. Get your daughter with you first, don't rock the boat. Focus on keeping her out of the conflict. Then see how you feel after Saturday. You've told the social worker what happened. Make a diary note of what happened. I honestly think this is more a situation for action rather than communication. As in - dealing with things on the ground when you're daughter is there rather than attempting to deal with your ex about it. She knows what she's done.
As suspected little one refused to come I tried the things said but it just doesn’t work she was just hostile and wouldn’t come ex offered no encouragement and just said “are you going with dad or not” and when she said no she said in the house then. And I just end up standing there for ages with little one angry at me and telling me she isn’t coming with me.
Little one had earned her first treat from the star chart and we were supposed to be going to get it today but even that didn’t help she just wasn’t interested.
The sad part is I won’t get the chance to have her again now for probably another 2 weeks when she’s back at school so I have no way of working with her this is what happens it goes well for a while then I don’t get time with her for weeks it’s just a vicious circle and it’s breaking me now.
It is very very very common for exes to disrupt school summer holiday periods. They can't stand it somehow - child being away having happy holidays without them.
Don't send that suggested email above yet, this needs a bit more thinking about. Your ex is back to how she was a while back.
Don't send that suggested email above yet, this needs a bit more thinking about. Your ex is back to how she was a while back.
She's given you a bit with the fake being reasonable and then manipulated your daughter again and you're back to square one.
As Ash said, this needs some careful planning so hold fire at the moment.
It may require a better more robust court order as this cycle will never stop.
As Ash said, this needs some careful planning so hold fire at the moment.
It may require a better more robust court order as this cycle will never stop.
It’s being done deliberately one because she can’t bear the thought of her having fun with me and away from her and also because her grandad is coming tonight and she views her family well above me and mine so she will ruin it so my little one doesn’t come so they can have the time at hers.
Yes she is and as I was warned about she played me like a fool to get me to withdraw my application and I fell for it.
I won’t send anything until I’ve taken your advice as how I feel at the minute I’d play right into her hands.
I’m just so tired of being broken and in pain I have strength but it’s slowly being eaten away.
Of course it all started March 2022 when she stopped all contact because I asked her to discuss moving my time with little one to me having her on my own.
So court was started straight after that.
Got CAO in November 2022 which gave me every Wednesday/Thursday after school until 6 and then half the holidays.
Sister supported this for the first 3 months of the order to help ease things for little one given she had never been allowed to be with me on her own before.
It went well for 10 weeks then when it was to turn to unsupervised she out of nowhere became very angry and hostile towards me this went on for 8 weeks and I spent no time with her.
I eventually got her to come and again for 6 weeks she was perfectly happy but again it changed and the hostility and anger returned and she refused to come for another 6 weeks.
I managed to get school pick ups half way thought this year and again it started so well little one was happy and came no issues but again only lasted about 5 weeks and then things got really bad the hostility and anger was off the scale telling me she wished I was dead and I wasn’t her daddy anymore.
Then a cpl of weeks before school hols she was still so angry at me but eventually she snapped out of it and started to come.
My first week of summer hols little one came happily for first 3 days then again overnight turned hostile towards me and ex slipped up by saying to her “your not going to soft play tomorrow now” despite the fact she knew she was supposed to be with me - ex knew she had messed up her face said it all.
Little one didn’t come on the Wednesday after ex’s week but did come the Thursday and that’s when I started the star chart which little one was so engaged with and she even said she wanted to stay at mine that night but I said I needed to speak to mammy first as overnights are not in the court order.
We agreed to try this Monday for overnights which went amazing and she stayed the first 3 nights. Ex asked to FaceTime her on the Wednesday which I agreed to given it was the first time she had been away from her for such a period so I thought being amicable and compassionate was the best way to be sadly I was very wrong.
Ex made statements of “I’ve got rid of your rabbits” but then told her she was joking. Little one still stayed that night.
Yesterday little one wanted to stay at my sisters again with her cousin and when I left she was so happy playing in bath but ex FaceTimed her again and this time made statements “the house is so quiet without you” etc and within 10mins of that call she wanted to go home which I stupidly did.
Hostility was there when I dropped her off as in front of mum she claimed she hadn’t been happy with me at all whilst she stayed over.
And today as above hostile and angry and refused to come.
There has been numerous breaches since the order was made but ex doesn’t do anything that I can prove it’s only done verbally not in any text or email.
The drastic changes in her behaviour towards me is what worries me the most as she can go from the happiest little girl with me to treating me like I’m nothing to her and this happens literally overnight most of the time.
Hope that makes sense.
So court was started straight after that.
Got CAO in November 2022 which gave me every Wednesday/Thursday after school until 6 and then half the holidays.
Sister supported this for the first 3 months of the order to help ease things for little one given she had never been allowed to be with me on her own before.
It went well for 10 weeks then when it was to turn to unsupervised she out of nowhere became very angry and hostile towards me this went on for 8 weeks and I spent no time with her.
I eventually got her to come and again for 6 weeks she was perfectly happy but again it changed and the hostility and anger returned and she refused to come for another 6 weeks.
I managed to get school pick ups half way thought this year and again it started so well little one was happy and came no issues but again only lasted about 5 weeks and then things got really bad the hostility and anger was off the scale telling me she wished I was dead and I wasn’t her daddy anymore.
Then a cpl of weeks before school hols she was still so angry at me but eventually she snapped out of it and started to come.
My first week of summer hols little one came happily for first 3 days then again overnight turned hostile towards me and ex slipped up by saying to her “your not going to soft play tomorrow now” despite the fact she knew she was supposed to be with me - ex knew she had messed up her face said it all.
Little one didn’t come on the Wednesday after ex’s week but did come the Thursday and that’s when I started the star chart which little one was so engaged with and she even said she wanted to stay at mine that night but I said I needed to speak to mammy first as overnights are not in the court order.
We agreed to try this Monday for overnights which went amazing and she stayed the first 3 nights. Ex asked to FaceTime her on the Wednesday which I agreed to given it was the first time she had been away from her for such a period so I thought being amicable and compassionate was the best way to be sadly I was very wrong.
Ex made statements of “I’ve got rid of your rabbits” but then told her she was joking. Little one still stayed that night.
Yesterday little one wanted to stay at my sisters again with her cousin and when I left she was so happy playing in bath but ex FaceTimed her again and this time made statements “the house is so quiet without you” etc and within 10mins of that call she wanted to go home which I stupidly did.
Hostility was there when I dropped her off as in front of mum she claimed she hadn’t been happy with me at all whilst she stayed over.
And today as above hostile and angry and refused to come.
There has been numerous breaches since the order was made but ex doesn’t do anything that I can prove it’s only done verbally not in any text or email.
The drastic changes in her behaviour towards me is what worries me the most as she can go from the happiest little girl with me to treating me like I’m nothing to her and this happens literally overnight most of the time.
Hope that makes sense.
OK so since Nov 22 there's a pattern of stop/start time with you and your daughter.
You may not have written evidence but if you haven't already you can write a diary or timeline (notes or spreadsheet on your phone) to show the disruption.
So it could be as simple as:
Weds 6th May (made up the date but sure you get the gist) : due to collect daughter. Daughter refused with no encouragement from mum.
Thurs 7th emailed mum to try and come to arrangement about seeing daughter. Mum ignored.
Weds 10th July:
Was due to collect daughter but refused again. Mum didn't encourage.
Thurs 24th Aug:
Had daughter 3 nights. All well until daughter face time mum and daughter became distressed.
You can use this as a type of evidence to show when your daughter refused to come and any comms with mum about trying to resolve matters.
What do others think about DB reapplying to court to enforce? Too soon?
You may not have written evidence but if you haven't already you can write a diary or timeline (notes or spreadsheet on your phone) to show the disruption.
So it could be as simple as:
Weds 6th May (made up the date but sure you get the gist) : due to collect daughter. Daughter refused with no encouragement from mum.
Thurs 7th emailed mum to try and come to arrangement about seeing daughter. Mum ignored.
Weds 10th July:
Was due to collect daughter but refused again. Mum didn't encourage.
Thurs 24th Aug:
Had daughter 3 nights. All well until daughter face time mum and daughter became distressed.
You can use this as a type of evidence to show when your daughter refused to come and any comms with mum about trying to resolve matters.
What do others think about DB reapplying to court to enforce? Too soon?
I do have a timeline I have been writing it on my phone since the beginning just like you’ve written,
I haven’t for a while though so I will be updating this today to show the last couple of months.
This is why I want to send an email to ex to show I’m trying to sort it with her even though I know it won’t change anything at least I’ve done it.
If it continues the way it is I’m sure within 12 months I’ll have no relationship with my daughter as I believe this is my exs goal.
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