Advice What can I do???

[DB2021]

I agree totally that DB's situation is serious, and that parental alienation is an appalling form of child abuse.

The degree to which the child is alienated need not be proportionate to the attempts made to alienate them. Alienating behaviour from the ex can be beaten by managing the relationship with the child well, at which I believe DB is doing a brilliant job. He is making the child's reality inconsistent with the picture mum is trying to etch into the poor kid's mind. This is the first line of defence. If the relationship can be protected, allowed to grow, and ex be pushed back in her box, that is the quickest way of ending the abuse. If the ex's atrocious behaviours continue and impact the child, despite the first line of defence, then alienation should be addressed by the court. But now DB can show his relationship with the child is important and can work. He has reports from agencies which will show the same. PA is insidious, not properly recognised, and immensely damaging to the child, it should be stamped out when seen, by the subtlest of means possible.

It is just my experience of being demonised and ostracized for the last few years of my kid's life that brings me to this view. I do not have the expertise or reading you can bring to bear on the issue.

Hi Resolute,

Thank you for your words, sometimes I don’t feel like I’m doing a good job but deep down I know I am and that my daughter loves me the memories we have show that and it was an amazing feeling yesterday to have her come out of school happy and her usual self how things will progress moving forward only time will tell but I know that her hostility sometimes is not me directly and that her anxiety is all her mums doing which is horrible but something I am determined to stamp out and I will do whatever I have to to make sure she’s happy and has her relationship with me that she obviously wants and loves.

I know I have to be cautious as I’ve let myself get comfortable when things have gone well for a little bit but this is the last chance saloon for her mum as any more major issues then I will raise things and have her exposed as I won’t let our little girl be abused in this way and used as a tool to hurt me.

 

[DB2021]

Agree the focus is on his relationship with the child and I am not saying raise alienation with the court. In fact it's best never to mention the word - what you do is skirt round it and describe the behaviours. That chapter 8 in the book linked explains well. But the key to beat it is a very good watertight court order and actually get enough time with the child. If you don't get time with the child then the child becomes alienated. Every situation is different. But with an alienator - if you give them an inch, they take a mile. They need to be pinned down with no wriggle room. By a watertight court order. Things are on a cusp right now. But the child needs to see that the Mother doesn't control everything because the child has no control and making choices for a child, shouldn't have to happen. They just need a routine that's followed by both parents.

I’ve read nearly all that link you sent and it’s excellent advice and gives me a clear path of how to deal with things of it comes to court again.

I have a lot of work to do and confidence to build to get to how he explains to deal with things but I know I have the advice here and that’s a huge huge comfort.

I’ve come a long way these last 9 months with my own strength and determination but also support and advice here which has been invaluable.

I see myself as a great father and that’s something that I struggled with for a long time I’m not fully there yet but I will get there because my little one deserves and needs that.

 

[Ash]

You are doing all the right things and making the best of the situation as it is now. At least you known that if there are issues again, you can apply to court. If your ex has thought this through, she should realise it's better to let things go ahead as per the order now, as if you go back to court you may get a better order. The fact the order doesn't say collections from school though, may mean she suddenly changes that again. But one week at a time.

Yes that chapter was invaluable to me preparing for a final hearing.

 

[DB2021]

You are doing all the right things and making the best of the situation as it is now. At least you known that if there are issues again, you can apply to court. If your ex has thought this through, she should realise it's better to let things go ahead as per the order now, as if you go back to court you may get a better order. The fact the order doesn't say collections from school though, may mean she suddenly changes that again. But one week at a time.

Yes that chapter was invaluable to me preparing for a final hearing.

Tbh I doubt my ex has thought it through she doesn’t see beyond her own deluded selfish views but in a way that goes in my favour in the long run court wise.

Tbh I don’t see her stopping them herself she will use our daughter to get them stopped if anything but hopefully the school will counter that.

Yes that’s how I’m looking at it now taking it step by step and not getting ahead of myself.

I just hope I don’t need to use it that’s my hope as that’s the best option for our daughter.

 

[Resolute]

Agree the focus is on his relationship with the child and I am not saying raise alienation with the court. In fact it's best never to mention the word - what you do is skirt round it and describe the behaviours. That chapter 8 in the book linked explains well. But the key to beat it is a very good watertight court order and actually get enough time with the child. If you don't get time with the child then the child becomes alienated. Every situation is different. But with an alienator - if you give them an inch, they take a mile. They need to be pinned down with no wriggle room. By a watertight court order. Things are on a cusp right now. But the child needs to see that the Mother doesn't control everything because the child has no control and making choices for a child, shouldn't have to happen. They just need a routine that's followed by both parents.

Hi Ash,

I think at base we agree on almost everything. I know you will give great help and guidance on how to go about bringing things through court to the conclusion needed. Most of my successes have come from 'soft power' rather than victories on the battlefield. That is why I often focus on what can be done to wriggle through and limit the damage. I also try to state the obvious, because it is only obvious once you know - e.g. keeping your powder dry.

If I have come across as at odds with your sound advice, that was not my intention.

 

[Resolute]

my ex has said many times she wouldn’t put her in a car kicking and screaming etc and also for me I wouldn’t want her that upset and if she was told to drop her off I think that would make things worse not better.

It is your ex's responsibility to make your child ready for time with you. It is her job to let your daughter know this is nothing to kick and scream about. At present, it looks like your ex is doing all she can to ensure your daughter struggles with going to you. This was demonstrated perfectly by how easily the teacher provided reassurance and made your daughter comfortable with going to you. Your daughter presented the response her mum rewards, the teacher dealt with it.

Handover at your ex's house is allowing transfer of responsibility for her failure over to you. Your ex is threatening you with the child being upset if taken to a handover location, she is upset at the present handover location! I know you don't want your daughter to be upset, but none of this is your fault.

 

[Ash]

Hi Ash,

I think at base we agree on almost everything. I know you will give great help and guidance on how to go about bringing things through court to the conclusion needed. Most of my successes have come from 'soft power' rather than victories on the battlefield. That is why I often focus on what can be done to wriggle through and limit the damage. I also try to state the obvious, because it is only obvious once you know - e.g. keeping your powder dry.

If I have come across as at odds with your sound advice, that was not my intention.

No I get where you're coming from and I've had to do things like that. I just think you can't do that unless you actually get to spend time with the child regularly. This has been stop start. Every time it stops he thinks (and needs to think) go back to court. Then it starts again and everything relaxes again. My feeling was - if the ex is the type to try and alienate (which it seems she is) the best way to prevent that ever taking hold seriously is to have a better order with a lot more time. The fact the child is spitting and screaming is pretty severe alienation in my book. And as was seen it can disappear again in days - once the Mother stops doing it or gives permission.

The teacher helped on this occasion but I wonder if that will continue. I had a similar thing where my ex tried to stop some class and said my son didn't want to do it (it was something I was paying for). Teacher asked my son if he wanted to do it and he said yes - so he got to do it. He then got punished by his Mother for not doing what she said.

Just keep an eye on things. As Resolute says it's important to focus on the relationship and manage the behaviours - I've been there too. See how it goes. What I was saying is - if it happens twice more - your daughter not coming and screaming and spitting - I think the court needs to know about that and make a better order that gives your ex more of an incentive to follow it. Because that's all it's about - if she was scared of not following it she would follow it.

That's partly why I think it's a bit stop start. You've seen how bad your ex can be and the effect she can have. It would be nice if things go smoothly from now on. Timing wise it would be better to apply to court (if needed) when this bereavement thing isn't so recent, so that doesn't get used as an argument. But if you don't get to see your daughter for a few times I wouldn't hesitate to take it back to court. There are ways of explaining and describing things. I think even Cafcass sound better than your social worker.

 

[Ash]

It would be nice if we didn't need court orders, but we do. Standard thing is - enforce before the third breach - otherwise it becomes deemed as accepting the order is changed and then suddenly you don't have that order any more. But you can apply to vary instead,

 

[Ash]

Hi Ash,

I think at base we agree on almost everything. I know you will give great help and guidance on how to go about bringing things through court to the conclusion needed. Most of my successes have come from 'soft power' rather than victories on the battlefield. That is why I often focus on what can be done to wriggle through and limit the damage. I also try to state the obvious, because it is only obvious once you know - e.g. keeping your powder dry.

If I have come across as at odds with your sound advice, that was not my intention.

It does suggest you think I only know how to deal with court matters and not children! I'm looking at it from a legal point of view yes. He has a court order and needs to keep it in tact - as well as manage this tricky situation where his daughter is having her head messed with. If I sound like it's a battle it's because I am angry. That any parent does that to a child. Very angry - about PA. It's evil. And the only way to deal with it is to start with a very good court order. And juggle the behaviours along the way. In fact often the behaviours improve straight away once there's a watertight court order because the ex stops trying to alienate and the child feels more confident about being allowed to see you. Hopefully DB's order will be kept to.

I'm with Chi on this one - if things don't improve it may need an application for residency - but not yet. Shared care would be the first step.

 

[Resolute]

It does suggest you think I only know how to deal with court matters and not children!

No Ash! Take a compliment. I was saying that I only know the dealing with children side, of couse you know that as well. You are a dad.

 

[Ash]

I think DB is handling it very well. Sorry for chatting on your thread DB. Fingers crossed the school keeps on top of the pick ups.

 

[DB2021]

No need to be sorry Ash.

Everyone’s advice and view points are invaluable and I listen to every word so what your saying is exactly what I need to hear.

I won’t give my ex any more chances like I have previously so the the next couple of times if they happen where my daughter is screaming spitting and extremely hostile then I will be going back to court. Having everyone’s advice has boosted my strength and alleviated my worry of what my ex may do if I do the alternative is not an option as I won’t stand by anymore whilst our daughter is treated this way and allow my ex to damage our daughter to the extent where it’s not fixable.

I am going to be the constant reasonable parent and show her how things should be and how people should behave.

I can’t stand her mum but I am well aware that that’s not our daughters issue she needs her parents and I will continue to promote her mum like I always have even through the bad times.

My concern is how things will be next week given I won’t have seen her for 6 days but I will cross that bridge when I come to it. If she is off again then again it proves what is happening and gives me even more evidence for court.

The bereavement thing whilst horrible for them is 100% being used as a tool by my ex which is even more disgusting but I’m so proud of how my little one is handling it and my ex did say at the meeting this week that she’s doing very well with it so she’s already shown that argument doesn’t fit her narrative.

My ex thinks she’s clever but she slips up all the time she just doesn’t realise I spot it.

 

[Ash]

Six days is a long time between seeing your child. Due to my ex's behaviours I had it in my final order that child didn't go more than 3 or 4 days without being with me - as it gave him an escape from ex's behaviours (which he needed and was relieved by) and helped prevent them taking hold. It was always a concern during school holidays if he was away for a week or two and with his Mum every day and he would be slightly strange afterwards sometimes - even slightly hostile on arrival - but it usually wore off within a few hours and after the first night he was back to normal. He lived in an environment of constant negativity and derogation of me - which couldn't be proved. I know this because he told me what was happening at first - then clammed up - but he knew I knew.

So see how things go. I suspect you will end up having to go back to court at some point. But see how it goes. And the more you have to go back with, the better order you can go for. It's an argument for shared care. Does your current order include for progression to overnights btw? I know you said your little one isn't ready for them yet but it can actually be easier when there are overnights as they don't have the stress of changeovers in one day.

 

[Ash]

No Ash! Take a compliment. I was saying that I only know the dealing with children side, of couse you know that as well. You are a dad.

Apologies if I misunderstood. PA is a highly emotive topic for me and it took me back - almost triggering. And yes I'm angry about it. I think it needs attacking from all angles - but yes it needs a different kind of gentle parenting with the child while they are in that state but them being in that state is criminal.

I am still dealing with a degree of it now but my son is much older so easier to work with him directly - even then it's tricky as he still has loyalty to both parents and not much control over things.

 

[DB2021]

I know it is tbh I am thinking of asking for another day so I get 3 a week which would make it less time between time together. The wed/thurs is due to my work as there the days I have off the others days it’s not possible as I don’t finish till 6 which is to late for my little on with school etc.

But Sundays I finish at 4 so I think I will go for that but I know for certain my ex won’t give me that so it’s definitely something I’m probs going to have to go to court for.

What’s tour view on varying that so soon after first order?

No it doesn’t included overnights so again will most probably end up back in court due to ex’s refusal to progress things beyond what I have now. The school pick ups it shocked me she agreed tbh most probably because she knew she couldn’t say no to the professionals as it would look bad for her but the rest she will point blank will say no.

Tbh I have the same view as you it’s going back to court on way or the other is just prefer it to be because she won’t give me an extra day or overnights than fight PA

 

[Ash]

In some ways, having more time to build up more and more difficulties with the ex, will mean you have more to go back to court with as and when necessary. I didn't mean to sound doom and gloom and hopefully things will improve. An ex can turn the alienation on and off as they choose. You never know, your ex might agree to progression to overnights because she knows you're prepared to go back to court if she causes issues (the SW probably told her you were considering it before).

 

[DB2021]

In some ways, having more time to build up more and more difficulties with the ex, will mean you have more to go back to court with as and when necessary. I didn't mean to sound doom and gloom and hopefully things will improve. An ex can turn the alienation on and off as they choose. You never know, your ex might agree to progression to overnights because she knows you're prepared to go back to court if she causes issues (the SW probably told her you were considering it before).

It’s not doom and gloom it’s just a possible fact and I’d rather hear it than not as it prepares me just in case it does go that way.

I highly doubt she will but who knows I may broach the extra day first not now but in a couple of months if things continue well and gage her reaction to that as if that’s a no then overnight’s definitely will be.

I do hate the 6 days in between my time with her as it’s feels so long and I constantly worry how she will be given she’s been with mum that long without seeing me but not a lot I can do about that at present.

It’s definitely now a case of seeing how things go and going from there.

 

[Resolute]

It’s not doom and gloom it’s just a possible fact and I’d rather hear it than not as it prepares me just in case it does go that way.

I highly doubt she will but who knows I may broach the extra day first not now but in a couple of months if things continue well and gage her reaction to that as if that’s a no then overnight’s definitely will be.

I do hate the 6 days in between my time with her as it’s feels so long and I constantly worry how she will be given she’s been with mum that long without seeing me but not a lot I can do about that at present.

It’s definitely now a case of seeing how things go and going from there.

Looking back at the start of this thread shows how much progress you have made since you started. I think it is very unlikely you will get to where you need without another court order, but the progress you have made outside of court will make that easier.

The 6 days are horrible, you should not have to wait that long being so close. The trigger you mentioned for doing a C100 is likely to come within three months. Why don't you start doing what you can to have the form ready? Also, why not do another of the packages for your daughter from time to time? While things are going well.

 

[Chi22]

Yep, I would agree to thinking about giving serious consideration to completing a C100 and a C1A, describing harm to your daughter. Harm is (or can be parental alienation) as well as the usual, physical harms/neglect. So it's worth bearing that in mind.

You will be asked in that application (C100), what you want from the court. You can choose to ask for a 'global psychological assessment' of the family (you all get seen by a psychologist) which will assess her views and likely pick up on any psychological difficulties she may be experiencing.

It is also worth bearing in mind that a major threshold for a transfer of residence is that the other party is unwilling or unable to support contact with the other parent.

I'm a way, right now, you may want to read up on the articles Ash has uploaded on transfer of residence cases and to look at form C1a first, thinking about how not supporting contact/parental alienation looks in your case. I think N that may help in thinking about past B of what you may choose to say on any return to court.

 

[DB2021]

Looking back at the start of this thread shows how much progress you have made since you started. I think it is very unlikely you will get to where you need without another court order, but the progress you have made outside of court will make that easier.

The 6 days are horrible, you should not have to wait that long being so close. The trigger you mentioned for doing a C100 is likely to come within three months. Why don't you start doing what you can to have the form ready? Also, why not do another of the packages for your daughter from time to time? While things are going well.

I am very proud of how far I’ve come I’ve over that time and feel especially lucky given some of the other dads experiences.

I am of that view myself and I’m expecting to have to go back to court at some point but I am hoping it doesn’t come to that all be it a slim hope.

obviously my work patterns don’t help the situation and there’s no way to change them I’ve already been down that route but getting say the Sunday aswell would break it up meaning I’d only 2 days between seeing her but sadly I doubt that’s something she will agree to willingly.

I was thinking of doing the packages again not every time but a couple of times a month as she loved them.

That’s a good idea about maybe getting things in place ready for court rather than waiting as tbh I have no idea where to start or how to word an application.

The transfer of residency angle though that’s a very very last resort as much as I dislike my ex I don’t want to take her away from her mum like that people may think that’s stupid but I’m very much of the opinion that it need not come to that.

I will try everything first before considering applying for that hopefully if it goes back to court a judge warning her that could happen would be the shock she needs to just get on with her life and stop the attempts of ruining my relationship with our daughter.

But going down then harm route and asking for assessments is definitely something I’d look at next.