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Advice What can I do???
- Thread starter DB2021
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I hate to be negative but I think this matter will regress as soon as you start pick ups from home once term is over.
Sorry to say but with this level of alienation, you should be seriously considering a transfer of 'residence' to you.
It doesn't seem like you have the best social worker, closing the case might turn out to be a blessing. If there is need for involvement from social services, it will probably be a new social worker next time.
I do not think bereavement is the root cause of difficulties, your ex is plainly the main problem. This is demonstrated by the fact that she is not getting support recommended for your daughter. However, my personal experience of a child bereaved at the same age is that it has an impact. Things that helped me include:
Making flower arrangements for Grandma with child, wild flowers/weeds are fine.
Letting child light a candle in church, some are open for this any time. They can say their thoughts for a minute or two after the candle is lit. A good way of getting started is asking them if there is anything to say to gran, maybe to thank her for.
Having a special candle at home and letting the child know if they are sad or thinking of gran, we can light the candle for her and have a hug. Letting your daughter choose when to blow it out and letting her blow it out herself is powerful. Because blowing out a candle is fun, and doing it is saying things are ok now.
I think you handled the situation in the park really well. It is very hard at the beginning and there will probably be other times she says she needs/misses her mum. But she now knows you picking up from school can happen and it will be fine.
I found it really good to let my kid take photos, look for bugs, anything that got her into the moment and where she is. Just like your rescue squirrel, reasons to continue. They stay on board to do what they are doing rather than having to make a choice between mum and dad.
Mum is putting her under tight restriction, she is not allowed to say and feel positive things about you or to say and feel negative things about mum. Weirdly, I found doing the opposite by allowing my child to be positive about her mum and negative about me, was the solution. Kids know who they can trust.
Hi Chi.
Yes that is my concern but the positive I get from this is of school pick ups go well over a long period then term finishes and she regresses then I have a lot of proof that the issue is mum.
At the moment I can’t really show that not enough to warrant much anyway so I’ll just have to sit tight and see how things go. But one thing is for sure I will no longer tread on egg shells and will take it back to court as and when necessary.
The strange thing about the social worker is she’s been brilliant in a lot of ways and tbh I wouldn’t be where I am now if it wasn’t for her but anything to do with alienation etc she just has her eyes closed and won’t consider it. But I think if I need to go to court not having her involved would be the blessing you mention.
It is hard for her as she does mention her gran to me and the tree which she climbed yesterday is a stones throw from her grave which I did mention at beginning but she was still to upset so I didn’t push it.
We have been to her grave before with some flowers and things but I love the idea of a candle but I think it’s something I should raise if my daughter does as most of the time she’s good and handling it well.
I know full well my ex won’t get her support for it though as she knows she can use the bereavement as an excuse for things which is the vilest thing I’ve ever seen but we all know what some women are capable of when it comes to causing issues and the things they will do to achieve that.
Yes l told her later yesterday that from now on I’d be picking her up from school on a wed/thurs and the others days it would be mammy or her auntie grandad etc and she was fine with it so hopefully over time it will become the norm but I’m mindful of the fact my ex will still try to scupper it and make our daughter feel negative about it. Thankfully yesterday despite the really hard start it’s gave me more strength as once she calmed down she was so happy and back to her usual self with me so I know for certain now that the issue is her mum it’s just how I handle that moving forward if things get worse or school pick ups stop because of it. Obviously I’ll go back to court if I have as many times as I have to.
I know she’s not allowed to speak about me or say anything to me when I have her I’ve known the at for a long time but she has slipped up a couple of times which is natural for a 5 year old. But as I’ve always done I’ll always speak well of her mam no matter what she does to me as I know in the long run our daughter will realise what’s happening and that gives me comfort.
And that is why your ex will do everything she can to make sure school pick ups don't go well. It is not in her interests. What is in her interests is to try and make it look like the child is rejecting you, whether the Mother is present or not. Alienation is sick and a child's mind is manipulated - it's child abuse basically. Have a read on the PA thread on here. The reality is - the Mother has no qualms about mentally and emotionally harming your daughter to suit herself. She is using the child as a weapon. The difficulty is proving this, but you only have to tell a court that the child is rejecting you, when there has been a normal happy relationship - and some of the other details (what the mother said about you not being family) and the court will know it is alienation (although maybe not in those words) and know exactly what the Mother is doing. And you have the "failure of parenting" argument. If she can't make it normal for the child to come to you without issue, then if she is not alienating, it is a failure of parenting. Either way - it means a much better, tighter order needs to be in place, plus some strong recitals that say neither parent will denigrate the other parent to the child. While that can't be policed, it's a marker - in case there are issues in the future - that it was necessary to make that recital.
That is the problem. Social workers are not trained in parental alienation. There is the odd one that knows about it. If you read Karen Woodall's blog on this (PA specialist) she is pretty scathing about the unwitting harm social workers do. The main issue is that because they are not trained in PA so don't spot it, they actually become a tool for the alienating parent, to further enable alienation. Alienators manipulate all professionals involved.
Social workers are trained (according to Karen Woodall's blog) to a 1970s feminist model of social work of Mother is the most important thing. That is in direct contradiction with any concept of a Mother being an alienating parent. So social workers have tunnel vision.
They genuinely care about children but are not qualified to recognise coercive behaviours by a Mother because they have an inherent belief that Mothers know best. To be frank it's just plain sexist - the assumption that all women are good Mothers and all men are potential abusers. And that Fathers are unnecessary and a bonus minor add on.
Hi Ash,
That’s great advice and I certainly will be coming here for advice on my next application if I need it.
I know what my ex is up to and I’ve finally given myself that kick up the arse to stop worrying what she will do if I challenge things so I will have no issue doing that.
The social worker definitely seams to have that view as I’ve raised so many concerns and not one has she taken seriously just like yesterday the fact that me telling her what had been said and nothing even when ex admitted saying it on the call beggars belief really but not unexpected.
I do hope that things will improve with me getting school pick ups but I won’t let my guard down this time and I’ll come back here if it does regress and get advice on next steps.
Sometimes social workers are taking notes internally but not letting on. Just because she doesn't show disapproval of mum doesn't mean she isn't seeing the problem. They need to sit on the fence. If they look like they are on your side, it could make it harder to make a case of your behalf. Plus, if their aloof manner makes you lose composure, their job becomes easy.
Yeah that’s true but I never lose composure not in front of her or the mam anyway I know how to handle it. I keep it to myself and vent on my own or on here.
The alienation side of things that’s a fight I’ll have to take up with court though I think if it comes to that but Ash’s advice earlier about “failure in parenting” etc is a great angle and I have plenty of this to raise if needed.
Whilst the social worker has been brilliant for the most part I think her closing the case is probs the best option for me in the long run as I’m not so sure she would written anything to help me if I’d have taken it back to court already.
I’m going to see how things go now I have school pick ups and go from there. Knowing now I no longer worry about what my ex may do if I do go back to court has really boosted my strength.
I agree totally with what Ash and Chi have said about how this is clearly alienation. I am not convinced that the court would recognise the 'failure' because mum is ticking boxes as well as weaponizing the child and vandalizing your relationship through her abuse.
My gut tells me that alienation to some degree is involved in most cases that end up at contested hearings, but that it takes quite an extreme situation for the court to give a shit. My experience is that you should keep things in reserve and not throw out your best evidence/arguments early in proceedings. If nothing else, mum's behaviour should demonstrate that an order is necessary and that it needs to be prescriptive rather than 'by agreement.' If she becomes more extreme as things progress through the court, you can pull the big guns out in response. At the moment, I would focus on laying the stepping stones. If the court sees mum as a barrier, there could well be some clauses in the interim order that place an onus on her to make things work. E.g. my first order made mum responsible for some of the travel and placed other conditions on her.
Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
On the other hand if you don’t nip some of these things in the bud they can drag on and become intractable so I think it’s important to raise them so the court has the picture from the outset. Most of those arguments I mentioned would be for a final hearing stage.
The best reference for dealing with this is chapter 12 of Karen and Nick Woodalls book on parental alienation (or is it chapter 8 I’ll have to check). It is extremely good and explains how a start to preventing the alienation is getting the best defined order possible - it says much more than that and takes you step by step into achieving that and explains why the steps help achieve the goal.
It is the first step - to have a watertight defined order . Your case needs that because the current order isn’t working. And because if what’s been happening it’s a reason to propose shared care. Which would be a deterrant to the mother if she loses some power as a result of not following orders. I think Nick Woodall actually publishes that chapter online - whereas the whole book is not cheap.
It is the first step - to have a watertight defined order . Your case needs that because the current order isn’t working. And because if what’s been happening it’s a reason to propose shared care. Which would be a deterrant to the mother if she loses some power as a result of not following orders. I think Nick Woodall actually publishes that chapter online - whereas the whole book is not cheap.
It’s here although says it’s the unedited proof - he probably can’t publish the actual chapter from the book as I would think the book would be under some kind of contract. But helpful for those who can’t afford the book.
www.nickwoodall.net
Presenting your case in court
Understanding Parental Alienation: Learning to cope, helping to heal by Karen Woodall and Nick Woodall
www.nickwoodall.net
That’s the hard part is there’s not really much the court can add on to mine for travel etc as we only live 10mins from each other. But the next time there’s major issues with her coming I will go back to court.
I think my main hope is that school pick ups go well and then the holidays should be okay despite having to go back to collecting from mams but only time will tell with that.
I’ll obviously come here first and ask for advice on how to write application etc and then whatever follows that to make sure I don’t make the same mistakes this time and I get a water tight order.
That’s brilliant I will have a look for the book and I’ll pay whatever is necessary I hope it doesn’t come to having to but as I said to Resolute the next time things regress I’ll be going back to court or at first sending the letter before action.
I do hope it doesn’t come to that as I’m sure every dad on her does but I know the oath I need to take now if things don’t improve.
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