Advice What can I do???

[DB2021]

I think last time you mentioned court, the SW was actually strongly against it and saying she would say something wasn't she? So I can see you need to keep her onside but if it's time for her to close the case and things have reverted. When is your next meeting with SW? And will that be at the school?

Yes she was strongly against it and she just mentioned how she would be writing the report so in essence warning me that it wouldn’t be good for me. The next meeting is next Wednesday but not at the school it’s always done over zoom, school will be in attendance though but not necessarily her teacher which I’m hoping it is as she’s the one fully behind school collections

 

[Ash]

Well maybe don't mention court at this stage then but say matters have reverted and your child is extremely hostile and spitting, and Mum didn't encourage her to go and told her you're not family while you were there to collect her. I think it's important you tell them that because the SW might actually get that it's Mum that is the problem. Of course she might be so tunnel visioned that she doesn't because a lot of SW's don't get the nuances of PA and are ingrained in the idea that Mothers are all that is needed and Dads are a bonus.

 

[DB2021]

Well maybe don't mention court at this stage then but say matters have reverted and your child is extremely hostile and spitting, and Mum didn't encourage her to go and told her you're not family while you were there to collect her. I think it's important you tell them that because the SW might actually get that it's Mum that is the problem. Of course she might be so tunnel visioned that she doesn't because a lot of SW's don't get the nuances of PA and are ingrained in the idea that Mothers are all that is needed and Dads are a bonus.

I hadn’t planned on mentioning court if they refuse school collections but they do say no then I’m left with little choice as I see it as the only way I can take the mams influence away. I will be mentioning what was said as she will ask how things have been going so I’ll be honest that it was great but out of nowhere the hostility and aggression has come back and then what was said by mum. Tbh I doubt she will see it as she’s always dismissed me when I’ve raised concerns that my daughter may be being influenced. But my daughter is definitely mirroring her mams bitterness towards me

 

[Ash]

The thing is - what does the court order say. Whatever school and social services recommend, the court made an order that has to be followed - so your ex doesn't have to agree to school collections if the order doesn't mention them and social services can't really override a court order. If social services say it should happen, and your ex agrees, then that in effect varies the order - but without it being written down on the order. It wouldn't be enforceable but if she did ever stop them again you could apply to vary and have them reinstated saying it's been happening informally for x months.

 

[DB2021]

The thing is - what does the court order say. Whatever school and social services recommend, the court made an order that has to be followed - so your ex doesn't have to agree to school collections if the order doesn't mention them and social services can't really override a court order. If social services say it should happen, and your ex agrees, then that in effect varies the order - but without it being written down on the order. It wouldn't be enforceable but if she did ever stop them again you could apply to vary and have them reinstated saying it's been happening informally for x months.

Court order doesn’t mention school collections so I know that she’s within her rights to say no but she’s been aware the at I want them for months, I agreed when I first mentioned it to wait for a little bit given I hadn’t had any time with my little girl without her mam present but it’s been nearly 6 months now so I feel it’s time to progress to that. If she does say no can I still go back to court to vary the order and have them put in it? From the very start I wanted a progressive order so they all know I would be asking for other things over time but I know it’s not written in the order. Surely I can go back to court if my ex just refuses any more progression

 

[Ash]

Yes you can go back to court to vary but she has no requirement to agree to progression unless the court order says there'll be progression. All she's required to do is follow what's in the order (and she's not even doing that).

I think the social worker is either misguided or biased - a Cafcass officer would know an order has to be followed. Although at least the SW got the school involved.

This is the problem when SW's don't get what the ex is doing. They are trying to resolve problems without accepting what the problem is. The problem is the ex not following the order.

 

[DB2021]

Yes you can go back to court to vary but she has no requirement to agree to progression unless the court order says there'll be progression. All she's required to do is follow what's in the order (and she's not even doing that).

I think the social worker is either misguided or biased - a Cafcass officer would know an order has to be followed. Although at least the SW got the school involved.

This is the problem when SW's don't get what the ex is doing. They are trying to resolve problems without accepting what the problem is. The problem is the ex not following the order.

Ahhh good I was worried for a bit then. Yes I accept she doesn’t have to agree to it so expecting it to be a no. But it has to happen as having to go there to collect her is giving my ex time to scupper my time with her. And I definitely think what you said the other day about her picking and choosing when to allow her to come is her way of trying to mask what she’s really up to.

That’s exactly what it is I’ve raised my concerns so many times but because the SW sees my ex at home acting all innocent and always telling her she’s doing everything she can she has no real clue of what’s going on.

It will be interesting to know what her views are this time given that my daughter was coming happily for weeks then again out of nowhere turns on me. I suspect they will still try and use the bereavement as the reason just like my ex did on Thursday. And the “your not family” comment well what can you say to that it’s the most degrading thing I’ve ever had done to me.

 

[Ash]

Sounds like typical parental alienation to me. Like "he left us". The kind of thing they tell children. No he didn't - they split up and he didn't leave the children he wants to see them.

Yes obviously your ex is never going to agree to school pickups as that would scupper her ability to prevent your daughter coming. I think you need this social worker to finish things so you can reapply to court.

 

[DB2021]

Sounds like typical parental alienation to me. Like "he left us". The kind of thing they tell children. No he didn't - they split up and he didn't leave the children he wants to see them.

Yes obviously your ex is never going to agree to school pickups as that would scupper her ability to prevent your daughter coming. I think you need this social worker to finish things so you can reapply to court.

Thing is I didn’t leave her she left me after sleeping with a married co worker and getting pregnant by him it baffles me why she seams to have so much bitterness, she’s had 2 other kids since our daughter one to the married guy and another this year to her new bloke so I just don’t get her at all.

Ahhh so if I applied whilst SW was still involved that would be the wrong thing to do? Or is it just because she’s made out that if I did she would be writing report so better to wait until she can’t?

Big thing will be how it goes next week I think.

 

[Ash]

It was just an example of the kind of thing alienators say. If it's not that, it's something like "he's not your family". Why? Because she has decided to rewrite her life and move on so rewrites the child's life too. It's not normal behaviour really. Sometimes just selfishness, sometimes some kind of revenge. Sometimes they have some kind of personality disorder. But sometimes it's as simple as - it's convenient to her to have a normal family life with a new bloke and cut the ex out and no annoying child schedules. ie they don't care - they just want their own way.

If you read the Co parenting with a toxic ex book (PA book by Amy J Baker and someone else) she describes it as "erase and replace". I know for a fact my ex sees it her own way and that is - her husband is her husband therefore they are the family because she gave birth to my son and married her husband. Genetics and bond don't even come into it with her. My son is "hers" and she decides who Dad is going to be. Except I stopped that.

 

[Peanut 21]

After reading through the posts, the main points I see are:
a) you have no contact (eg, phonecalls-understandable at 5 years old) with your daughter in-between court orders times. She was totally fine and happy with you over Easter, didn't see her in between, then next pick up very riled up and upset. So what is causing this dramatic change in attitude? Obviously we know but need to paint a picture.
b) you need enough time for a pattern to emerge. How many times has this happened?
You need to demonstrate in your application to court at least 3 occasions. I think you have at least 3 so that's good. It's just to show it's not one off situations.
c) Although children do get upset when a grandparent dies, I feel this is being over used as an excuse. The  mother is grieving the lose of her mum. She is not protecting your daughter from her own grief. When I was 12 my paternal grandad died. Of course we were all sad but my parents didn't burden me and my sisters with their grief. Obviously they cried but they dealt with the difficult parts together, allowing us kids to grieve without worrying about our parents. I question how much a 5 year old understands about bereavement. I think if they are reassured they can get over it quite quickly.
d) Shutting off dad will cause another bereavement. Your daughter might be thinking "nanny has gone, now daddy might be going too". A confusing thought for a kid to deal with.
e) the ex saying you're not family is her basically say you're not her family. In turn she has lumped your daughter in with that statement. Let her say whatever she likes there. You know the truth. Your daughter is 50% you and the ex can't stand it.

It sounds insane but even though your ex was the one who cheated, she's projecting her lack of self worth and insecurities on you. I've become a bit of an arm chair psychologist, haha. Read so much on this sort of thing and I believe it applies to most situations when people don't act normally. There's nothing new under the sun, as they say. If someone is causing agro and drama it's because they are projecting their problems and fears.
They accuse someone of abuse, lying, cheating etc etc it's because they're abusive, a liar and a cheat.

 

[DB2021]

It was just an example of the kind of thing alienators say. If it's not that, it's something like "he's not your family". Why? Because she has decided to rewrite her life and move on so rewrites the child's life too. It's not normal behaviour really. Sometimes just selfishness, sometimes some kind of revenge. Sometimes they have some kind of personality disorder. But sometimes it's as simple as - it's convenient to her to have a normal family life with a new bloke and cut the ex out and no annoying child schedules. ie they don't care - they just want their own way.

If you read the Co parenting with a toxic ex book (PA book by Amy J Baker and someone else) she describes it as "erase and replace". I know for a fact my ex sees it her own way and that is - her husband is her husband therefore they are the family because she gave birth to my son and married her husband. Genetics and bond don't even come into it with her. My son is "hers" and she decides who Dad is going to be. Except I stopped that.

Yes she’s definitely got some sort of disorder that’s for sure as since the split I’ve kept myself to myself and only wanted to see our daughter yet her behaviour has just got worse despite moving on herself. I really do think she wants me gone so she can have her perfect family with the new bloke without me around but sad part is she can have that anyway our contact could be so minimal but she obviously wants the control hence always saying no to things that take that away.

I know now that the best option is not having to deal with her on collections so I’ll do whatever I can do make that happen I’m tired of seeing our daughter put under all this pressure when she should just be enjoying life with both her parents just at different times.

 

[DB2021]

After reading through the posts, the main points I see are:
a) you have no contact (eg, phonecalls-understandable at 5 years old) with your daughter in-between court orders times. She was totally fine and happy with you over Easter, didn't see her in between, then next pick up very riled up and upset. So what is causing this dramatic change in attitude? Obviously we know but need to paint a picture.
b) you need enough time for a pattern to emerge. How many times has this happened?
You need to demonstrate in your application to court at least 3 occasions. I think you have at least 3 so that's good. It's just to show it's not one off situations.
c) Although children do get upset when a grandparent dies, I feel this is being over used as an excuse. The  mother is grieving the lose of her mum. She is not protecting your daughter from her own grief. When I was 12 my paternal grandad died. Of course we were all sad but my parents didn't burden me and my sisters with their grief. Obviously they cried but they dealt with the difficult parts together, allowing us kids to grieve without worrying about our parents. I question how much a 5 year old understands about bereavement. I think if they are reassured they can get over it quite quickly.
d) Shutting off dad will cause another bereavement. Your daughter might be thinking "nanny has gone, now daddy might be going too". A confusing thought for a kid to deal with.
e) the ex saying you're not family is her basically say you're not her family. In turn she has lumped your daughter in with that statement. Let her say whatever she likes there. You know the truth. Your daughter is 50% you and the ex can't stand it.

It sounds insane but even though your ex was the one who cheated, she's projecting her lack of self worth and insecurities on you. I've become a bit of an arm chair psychologist, haha. Read so much on this sort of thing and I believe it applies to most situations when people don't act normally. There's nothing new under the sun, as they say. If someone is causing agro and drama it's because they are projecting their problems and fears.
They accuse someone of abuse, lying, cheating etc etc it's because they're abusive, a liar and a cheat.

Hi Peanut.

Yes I only get to see my daughter on court ordered times or agreed holiday times but that is in the order just not specific dates.

It has happened quiet a few times but I do think Ash made a good point in thinking my ex is allowing her to come sometimes then taking it away as it’s a very sneaky way of making it look like she’s doing no wrong as she does come sometimes so she can say well it’s not me if it was she would never go etc.

My daughter is upset she’s mentioned it a couple of times but also took me to her grans grave at Easter to put some flowers on which was encouraged by my ex that’s the confusing thing as that day for about 30mins my daughter wouldn’t come but again once she did she was fine and happy like she always is when she’s actually with me.

That’s the cruelest thing with what she said to me tbh but because she doesn’t view me as anything other than a bit of dirt she doesn’t see me as a loss to our daughter yet has no thought on what it would do to her but if she ever did manage to push me out she would then turn it on me saying I gave up etc. it’s the most disgusting behaviour I’ve ever witnessed.

I can’t just let her say those things though as the more I do the more it would become believable to a 5 year old. I’ll be challenging that at every opportunity.

Exactly that Peanut but she’s the type that doesn’t believe she’s ever done anything wrong even trying to destroy another women’s family not a care about it but if it was on the other foot it would be a different story. Not surprisingly her new fella was married also and now his wife is causing them issues so I suspect she’s done it again but this time actually broken that family up so she’s a very dangerous manipulative person who can put on an act whenever she needs to.

Her saying what she did the other day was the last straw for me so I’ll be respectful as I’ve always been but I will no longer be scared to challenge her and take it further no matter the risks. She wants a real fight then she will get one I wanted it to be amicable and for us to just co parent but she’s made it clear she won’t so that’s her choice and she can deal with the consequences for the first time in her life. It’s a sad way for it to go but I won’t let her erase me or belittle me any longer.

 

[Peanut 21]

There are parallels with your and my partners situation apart from ages of daughters different and my partners ex doesn't have a partner (as far as we're aware).
You have more time to get this nipped in the bud before your daughter is deemed old enough to make her supposedly own decisions.
To help you feel a bit more in control, it might help to write up a mock version of what you'd put in your court application and a position statement.
At least it's there waiting for if/when it's needed.

 

[Ash]

Even so you still need to show you're the one trying to and willing to, co parent when it goes to court - and seeking ways for that to happen to avoid difficulties for your daughter. ie keep it child focused. There is an extremely good argument for collections to and from school - to avoid transition conflict for the child. The SW can't be very good if she hasn't even considered that. For some kids - having both parents there at the same time creates a conflict - they can't please both. That conflict is only there because the ex is creating it.

It's true that grief can affect people in many ways but that's yet another argument for school collections, if, in her grief, your ex is not coping with having to deal with you then it takes that away from her - she doesn't have to see you. However if she is an alienator she could still disrupt school pickups by instructing the child in the morning, to refuse to come with you from school. It's harder for her to achieve that because where else is the child going to go if she doesn't come with you? If the ex starts turning up on the days you're due to collect from school, you can get a prohibited steps order to prevent the ex doing that.

What some alienators do is keep the child off school whenever it's your day to collect. And then claim child was so scared of seeing Dad it made her ill. So be prepared for that kind of thing and don't take it personally - your child isn't rejecting you, she's being manipulated.

This is why an order needs to be absolutely watertight. You have good reason to apply to vary. But yes I'd do this last social worker session and see what they say/do. And don't mention to the SW that you're going to apply to court again.

As to whether you wait till after that to apply to court. Well it takes a couple of weeks for the application to be processed. But it could be an idea to see what the outcome of the next meeting is first. If the SW just says - give it time and I'm signing off the case. Then you apply to court. If she says - I'll keep involved a bit longer as there are issues - well lets just see what happens next.

 

[DB2021]

There are parallels with your and my partners situation apart from ages of daughters different and my partners ex doesn't have a partner (as far as we're aware).
You have more time to get this nipped in the bud before your daughter is deemed old enough to make her supposedly own decisions.
To help you feel a bit more in control, it might help to write up a mock version of what you'd put in your court application and a position statement.
At least it's there waiting for if/when it's needed.

It’s sad that there’s so many of us going through this and women like that are allowed to continually get away with it.

That’s a great idea about the court app and position statement though I’ll look into that.

Whatever I do write I’ll be coming here and asking for advice

 

[DB2021]

Even so you still need to show you're the one trying to and willing to, co parent when it goes to court - and seeking ways for that to happen to avoid difficulties for your daughter. ie keep it child focused. There is an extremely good argument for collections to and from school - to avoid transition conflict for the child. The SW can't be very good if she hasn't even considered that. For some kids - having both parents there at the same time creates a conflict - they can't please both. That conflict is only there because the ex is creating it.

It's true that grief can affect people in many ways but that's yet another argument for school collections, if, in her grief, your ex is not coping with having to deal with you then it takes that away from her - she doesn't have to see you. However if she is an alienator she could still disrupt school pickups by instructing the child in the morning, to refuse to come with you from school. It's harder for her to achieve that because where else is the child going to go if she doesn't come with you? If the ex starts turning up on the days you're due to collect from school, you can get a prohibited steps order to prevent the ex doing that.

What some alienators do is keep the child off school whenever it's your day to collect. And then claim child was so scared of seeing Dad it made her ill. So be prepared for that kind of thing and don't take it personally - your child isn't rejecting you, she's being manipulated.

This is why an order needs to be absolutely watertight. You have good reason to apply to vary. But yes I'd do this last social worker session and see what they say/do. And don't mention to the SW that you're going to apply to court again.

As to whether you wait till after that to apply to court. Well it takes a couple of weeks for the application to be processed. But it could be an idea to see what the outcome of the next meeting is first. If the SW just says - give it time and I'm signing off the case. Then you apply to court. If she says - I'll keep involved a bit longer as there are issues - well lets just see what happens next.

I will always show that I have from the beginning believe it or not despite her behaviour id far rather work together and just give our daughter the best life. All I’ve wanted is for us to co parent and I’ve not asked for anything unreasonable so I’ll continue to be respectful and child focused but I won’t let her belittle me or treat me like I’m nothing I’ll just stop that the right way by using court etc.

I’m not worried about her prepping our daughter before school as I have the teacher behind me who I know would counter balance that as our daughter listens to everything she says and by the time I get there I think she will already be fine I definitely think it’s just when her mams around she aligns herself with her for obvious reasons, no mam no issues.

I am going to ask if it goes to court that the school keeps a record of her attendance which I know they do anyway but I’m the respect of is she off more often on my days etc so if she does do that I can show proof of a pattern.

I’ll be making sure the order is watertight if it comes to that I was a bit naive the first time but I can come here for advice to make sure it’s written properly. It will be interesting to see if my ex has a barrister this time as she clearly lied to get legal aid the first time but this wasn’t even brought up.

I was always going to wait until after next weeks meeting before deciding the next steps as I’d rather give them a chance to help and stop this from going to court first but I just won’t lay down as easily this time of they again pass things off as nothing or act like it’s a normal issue. But I won’t bring court up I’ll keep that to myself and just do it if need be.

 

[Peanut 21]

I don't think you were naive. Most men are in the same boat at the start of these situations. You just can't believe how manipulative and conniving someone you had a child with can be. My partner has been going through this for years but he was still in denial/shock about it until about 18 months ago.

 

[DB2021]

I don't think you were naive. Most men are in the same boat at the start of these situations. You just can't believe how manipulative and conniving someone you had a child with can be. My partner has been going through this for years but he was still in denial/shock about it until about 18 months ago.

I wasn’t naive about my ex I know exactly what she is and always have I just meant about the court order wasn’t really written well so I definitely need to get that sorted if it goes back to court. Probably more let my guard down is a better way of putting it since Easter went so well.

 

[DB2021]

Hi all update for you.

So I had the meeting today and went quiet well.

I’ve got School collections they started today .

Social worker still bringing up substantial loss etc and I told them all what my ex said to me “I’m not family” and they didn’t even bat an eyelid to me just shows why my ex does the things she does as there’s no one calling her out on it so she knows she can do what she likes but at least I’ve taken her power before I get there away or a little bit anyway.

My daughter really struggled at first wouldn’t come so teacher spoke to her then she did but within a minute she was back to her hostile self only this time I’m in middle of playground. She said she wanted to go back to mammy so I said I’ll take you home as it’s walking distance from school and whilst walking I was getting the usual behaviour. She then climbed a tree that’s in the park on way and just sat there screaming at me. I said do you want me to text mammy and get her to come here which she ignored and wouldn’t walk home. I did get upset in front of her not angry the sad kind ive done so well holding that in around her but I just couldn’t this time she asked why it hurt me and I just said because I don’t like to see you so upset and unhappy with me darling. She calmed a bit but again went back so shouting at me. So I said in 2 minutes I’m texting mammy to which she shouted no all so confusing but I stated to realise how confusing it must be for her. Then she saw a squirrel which she pointed out to me I missed it so she said go look for it which I did and then “snap” she was happy as Larry with me and we had an amazing couple of hours together.

It does break me to see how confused she is with how she feels but I know I have to be the strong one for both of us.

Sorry for the long winded way of explaining it .

But im positive that I now have school pick ups and hopefully over time she will get into a routine as when I dropped her off she was already telling me what she wants to do tomorrow and that we will have more time this time since she had been upset today and lost some time.