Advice What can I do???

[DB2021]

Quick update aswell.

Today went brilliantly she came happily no screaming and was excited about what we had planned telling me what we spoke about yesterday.

She wanted to take a flower to her grans grave which we did and do you know it who was walking through the cemetery her mum so my heart sank but she was absolutely fine she did spot her but all she said was there’s mammy didn’t kick off or want to go to her it didn’t cause any issues at all which was a huge relief.

She asked if I was picking her up tomorrow which I said no it’s mammys turn and I’ll be picking her up next week on Wednesday which she was happy with.

So it’s a small step again in the right direction as I did wonder how she would be today after yesterday.

I guess the next couple of weeks are pivotal really as now she won’t see me for 6 days so I’ll see how next week goes.

 

[Resolute]

That’s the hard part is there’s not really much the court can add on to mine for travel etc as we only live 10mins from each other. But the next time there’s major issues with her coming I will go back to court.

I think my main hope is that school pick ups go well and then the holidays should be okay despite having to go back to collecting from mams but only time will tell with that.

I’ll obviously come here first and ask for advice on how to write application etc and then whatever follows that to make sure I don’t make the same mistakes this time and I get a water tight order.

If responsibility for travel is shared, she would have to drop to you and you drop back to her over the holidays. She would be 'ordered' to bring the child to you, so she would have to get your daughter ready and out of the house. If handovers are in a public place, you are both responsible for travel every time. The problems you have had so far should show that another approach is in order and that mum needs to pull her socks up.

 

[DB2021]

If responsibility for travel is shared, she would have to drop to you and you drop back to her over the holidays. She would be 'ordered' to bring the child to you, so she would have to get your daughter ready and out of the house. If handovers are in a public place, you are both responsible for travel every time. The problems you have had so far should show that another approach is in order and that mum needs to pull her socks up.

Yeah the travel isn’t shared it was just assumed I think that I would pick her up which I actually don’t mind and my ex has said many times she wouldn’t put her in a car kicking and screaming etc and also for me I wouldn’t want her that upset and if she was told to drop her off I think that would make things worse not better.

The big test I think is holidays and me going back to pick her up from her house but I also need to see how school pick ups go first.

I do understand she has 2 other small children one being a new born so as much as I could be a pain in making her drop her off I won’t do that.

I will look at another approach if it goes back to court. I did make mistakes the first time but I also got way more than I expected so I kinda took that as a huge win given how little some dads get so I know I’m very lucky in a lot of ways.

 

[Ash]

You see I still think that was rigged. Mummy organised to be at the graveyard and instructed child to say she wanted to take a flower to granny's grave. So your ex can turn your child into a rejecting child or an amenable child and that's why it can chop and change. But glad it went well.

 

[DB2021]

You see I still think that was rigged. Mummy organised to be at the graveyard and instructed child to say she wanted to take a flower to granny's grave. So your ex can turn your child into a rejecting child or an amenable child and that's why it can chop and change. But glad it went well.

See I usually would have myself but the nursery where our daughter used to go is round corner from the school so she has to go that way, her little sister goes there now, tbf though actually I didn’t see her little sister just the push chair so you may have been right.

But also my daughter wanted to take it after we had been to park and had tea it was my idea to take it before so if I hadn’t said that we wouldn’t have seen her .

I guess I’m just happy that she came and didn’t have any issue when she saw her but I will definitely keep an eye out for those type of things. But like I’ve said if she stops coming again and goes back to the hostility then it’s court no more chances.

 

[Ash]

It's as if your ex picks up that you might go back to court so she eases off on your daughter for a while to avoid that happening.

 

[DB2021]

It's as if your ex picks up that you might go back to court so she eases off on your daughter for a while to avoid that happening.

Yeah it does feel that way but I also think she’s doing it to be able to say well she goes sometimes so it’s not me etc etc.

And tbh I have given her them chances previously as I’d rather keep it out of court but I know now that people like her there’s no reasoning and unless I do something it will probably continue like this.

This is the last chance though I have school pick ups which is what I wanted so as long as it continues how it was today during term time and then there’s no issues during holidays I won’t do anything but next time things go back to how she was last week then it’s my only option

 

[Ash]

I used to find my son was worse if he had been with his Mother (ie over a week-end) and better when he'd been away from her or at school and around more normality. But if something is instilled or instructed - like tell Daddy you don't want to come when he comes to get you - kids do what they are told and are then conflicted at having different instructions from both parents. Which is why your ex just needs to follow the order.

 

[DB2021]

I used to find my son was worse if he had been with his Mother (ie over a week-end) and better when he'd been away from her or at school and around more normality. But if something is instilled or instructed - like tell Daddy you don't want to come when he comes to get you - kids do what they are told and are then conflicted at having different instructions from both parents. Which is why your ex just needs to follow the order.

Yeah that’s why my worry is the holidays but I can’t do anything really until they come around.

The big plus for me is the school is working with her which will help at least during term time.

That’s what angers me the most is the stuff my ex is putting her through then pretending she’s the best mother in the world.

What keeps me going is I’ve slowly taken power away from her yes I know not all given what has happened but from where I was to now that’s all she has left and shows just how far I’ve managed to come.

 

[Ash]

Yes you've achieved a lot. The holidays are when most ex's cause trouble! They seem to mentally switch off to the idea of an odd night a week away or a week-end away as if it's not a real relationship. But the idea of a week or longer away and they sometimes can't handle the idea the child is having fun without them. Or they feel out of control. This is particularly the case if a Dad has a new partner.

 

[DB2021]

Yes you've achieved a lot. The holidays are when most ex's cause trouble! They seem to mentally switch off to the idea of an odd night a week away or a week-end away as if it's not a real relationship. But the idea of a week or longer away and they sometimes can't handle the idea the child is having fun without them. Or they feel out of control. This is particularly the case if a Dad has a new partner.

Yeah that’s my next big challenge is the over nights as I know my ex will do whatever to make sure they don’t happen.

But my little one isn’t ready for them yet I think that will take a lot longer given she’s never stayed anywhere without her mam away from her own house. As much as I’d love them now I’d rather wait and let her decide when she wants to I want to give her the choice to make her own decision on that so in essence I’m being the opposite of her mam if that makes sense

 

[Ash]

Did you not live with her before separation then? I think it's about the person rather than the house. The child feels at home with the parent. It can take a couple of nights to get them settled if it's a different bedroom but then there are bedtime stories to help them settle and they can come in with you in the morning when they wake up. I got a great nightlight that helped a lot called a twilight turtle. It's a kind of friendly toy as well as shining stars on the ceiling so it's not so dark and they can look at the stars.

 

[DB2021]

Did you not live with her before separation then? I think it's about the person rather than the house. The child feels at home with the parent. It can take a couple of nights to get them settled if it's a different bedroom but then there are bedtime stories to help them settle and they can come in with you in the morning when they wake up. I got a great nightlight that helped a lot called a twilight turtle. It's a kind of friendly toy as well as shining stars on the ceiling so it's not so dark and they can look at the stars.

No we didn’t live together her mum moved away to live with her mam before she gave birth as she wanted the support from her but tbh I think she used that as a way to distance herself from me and the situation she was in as I believe she had already been fooling around with the married man so she left to get away from it and because we didn’t live together or spend as much time together she decided on a different path if that makes sense.

Given how things have been up and down I don’t think it’s the right time to put that on top of her aswell. That may be the wrong thing but given I haven’t ever lived with her I think it’s something I need to give time.

 

[Ash]

Yes it's not the same as if the child was used to you being around at night in the early years. I also didn't live with my ex before birth but had my son overnight once or twice a week from being a few months old. So if you're daughter is five, has it taken all this time to get a court order?

 

[DB2021]

Yes it's not the same as if the child was used to you being around at night in the early years. I also didn't live with my ex before birth but had my son overnight once or twice a week from being a few months old. So if you're daughter is five, has it taken all this time to get a court order?

I know I missed out on a lot when she was a baby through no fault of my own just me ex’s selfish decisions but at the time I didn’t realise it.

No I saw her just not as often as I liked due to the distance etc, we were together until she was 18months old then she ended it and a while later the stuff with the married guy came out and since then she just messed me around for about 18months and tbh I was to weak and I didn’t challenge it as I was petrified of losing her.

I then did challenge it and she stopped all contact hence going to court I was very lucky as I only went 3 months without seeing her as the courts here were very fast tbh only took 9 months from start to finish.

 

[Ash]

That's good the court process was only 9 months. Presumably because there were no welfare issues.

 

[DB2021]

That's good the court process was only 9 months. Presumably because there were no welfare issues.

They did do a section 7 as ex made allegations and used my mental health against me but the allegations were never mentioned once and I had so much evidence that my mental health was good so section 7 was largely in my favour. Judges were good aswell and made sure I had contact during it all.

Allegations were only made to get legal aid as they usually are.

 

[Resolute]

Quick update aswell.

Today went brilliantly she came happily no screaming and was excited about what we had planned telling me what we spoke about yesterday.

She wanted to take a flower to her grans grave which we did and do you know it who was walking through the cemetery her mum so my heart sank but she was absolutely fine she did spot her but all she said was there’s mammy didn’t kick off or want to go to her it didn’t cause any issues at all which was a huge relief.

She asked if I was picking her up tomorrow which I said no it’s mammys turn and I’ll be picking her up next week on Wednesday which she was happy with.

So it’s a small step again in the right direction as I did wonder how she would be today after yesterday.

I guess the next couple of weeks are pivotal really as now she won’t see me for 6 days so I’ll see how next week goes.

This is a massive step in the right direction. She has gone from being with mum and being enormously hostile towards you when you come to collect her, to being with you and indifferent to her mum being available. In one day she dealt with the uncertainty that came from you picking her up, which the teacher would have noted. The question about you collecting the next day shows she has already normalised the new regime. Mum's contrivance has accidentally given you strong evidence against the idea that being with you is problematic for your daughter.

It would be interesting to know if mum might try guilt-tripping the child for not coming to her when she was there.

 

[Resolute]

There are degrees of alienation but I think his situation is quite serious. Five year olds don’t reject parents unless encouraged to. Even bad parents.

I’ve lived through seeing a child being alienated and it is serious abuse.

I agree totally that DB's situation is serious, and that parental alienation is an appalling form of child abuse.

The degree to which the child is alienated need not be proportionate to the attempts made to alienate them. Alienating behaviour from the ex can be beaten by managing the relationship with the child well, at which I believe DB is doing a brilliant job. He is making the child's reality inconsistent with the picture mum is trying to etch into the poor kid's mind. This is the first line of defence. If the relationship can be protected, allowed to grow, and ex be pushed back in her box, that is the quickest way of ending the abuse. If the ex's atrocious behaviours continue and impact the child, despite the first line of defence, then alienation should be addressed by the court. But now DB can show his relationship with the child is important and can work. He has reports from agencies which will show the same. PA is insidious, not properly recognised, and immensely damaging to the child, it should be stamped out when seen, by the subtlest of means possible.

It is just my experience of being demonised and ostracized for the last few years of my kid's life that brings me to this view. I do not have the expertise or reading you can bring to bear on the issue.

 

[Ash]

Agree the focus is on his relationship with the child and I am not saying raise alienation with the court. In fact it's best never to mention the word - what you do is skirt round it and describe the behaviours. That chapter 8 in the book linked explains well. But the key to beat it is a very good watertight court order and actually get enough time with the child. If you don't get time with the child then the child becomes alienated. Every situation is different. But with an alienator - if you give them an inch, they take a mile. They need to be pinned down with no wriggle room. By a watertight court order. Things are on a cusp right now. But the child needs to see that the Mother doesn't control everything because the child has no control and making choices for a child, shouldn't have to happen. They just need a routine that's followed by both parents.