Update on my case

[Richie1989]

Just a little update, our time yesterday was great, but little one wasn't well bless her, lots of snot but we had a great day again. She didn't run to me today like she always does, and at first I wondered why but I quickly realised she wasn't well and that's the reason. It's crazy how fast your brain starts thinking stupid things though. It's in those moments you need to pause, and think clearly.

The rest of the time was as usual, run around together, giggling, playing, just slightly slower and more tired.

When it came to handover afterwards, I left the house, and she said 'Stay at daddy's!' so I told her she would be staying soon, and we would be together lots and lots very soon. I find it hard and upsetting because she so so doesn't want to go, and I obviously don't want her to go, but I have no choice but to keep walking, and try and reassure her that it won't be like this, that she will be staying at daddy's very soon lots and lots. I know most of us go through the same thing, it's very hard. I was wondering whether to ask if the overnights could be brought forward, as XXXXX is asking to stay, and upset when she realises she is going. Would that go against the court order? In my view I'm thinking of my daughter, she wants to stay and is ready to, is asking to stay.

We played briefly at the handover. The lady who does the handover came over, and my daughter knows her well now, and is used to what happens, she said bye daddy, looked a bit down, at this point we were playing still, so carried on a little. I just wish she didn't have to go through this, and again it worries me what she thinks, but I know deep down there is no need and I need to think clearly, understand that, she is just used to the routine of going to the church for handover, seeing the lady who takes her to mummy afterwards, and she see's daddy again. She is visibly not happy about it all, but she knows the routine I guess. That's why she said to me, on the way to the church, stay at daddy's, as she knew where we were going.

Sorry if I'm rambling it helps to write it down, like a journal, and it's good to get others views.

I kissed her, and she went off with the lady, who is good at distracting her while she goes from mummy to daddy and daddy to mummy.

Should I be writing all this in a diary? Can this diary be shown to the Cafcass S7 lady?

The S7 lady rang me and we spoke briefly, she seemed pretty nice, and we were actually laughing on the phone together a couple of times. We arranged a time for her to come and be with me and my daughter, so that's good, I'm glad she will see us together, she then mentioned we would have a chat another time about how to go forward.

Hey matey,

I feel your pain I really do! Absolutely it’s great to write it down and vent on here. It helps with the processing and rationalising each situation. It’s coping with trauma response. When does the over nights start?

With regards to mentioning to your ex to start the over nights earlier maybe you could word it in a certain what that doesn’t trigger her. Maybe saying “as you know things are going great with contact and was wondering if it’s possible to start the over nights early. Everything is in place and it saves the to and fro during cold weather”. That way you don’t mention upset which if she’s like my ex results on some bollocks about emotional abuse blah blah blah!

It’s great you are getting a rapport with cafcass and they are coming out soon to do checks. What ever you do don’t pull your ex down to then and keep everything focused on what you are doing and plan to do with your daughter. Express how you can’t wait for the over nights and for it to become more and more regular. Don’t be analytical about your exs behaviour. Remain positive and reiterate over and over how you want to be amicable and work together for the food of your daughters wellbeing and development.

I had a funny changeover last night. Daughter is crying every time she has to leave me which is really hard. Last night when my ex came for collection she came into the hallway and she seen first hand the distress it’s causing our daughter. She ran upstairs 3 times, getting into my bed and hiding under the covers while crying. I reassured my ex she was totally fine and it’s not personal etc and she was ok with me. Not had a message up to now kicking off so all is good but that could change very quickly if she’s out the wrong underwear on or the weather changes.
My ex kicks of if I show any emotion/empathy to my daughter in front of her. I can’t wait for the final order so I don’t have to tread on eggshells whenever she is around. Really hoping the judge orders pickups and collections is from nursery/school which I have put in my proposed arrangement. It’s all about control for these people so remember to show as little emotion as possible during your communication. Use the gray rock approach at all times if you can. Keep going matey!

Top dad

 

[winger]

Thanks Richie.

So the last handover I kept the handover book, which is written in by ex and myself each time, general stuff like what she's eaten, but now it's all day there isn't a need to write that, it was to limit the chance of my daughter having too much of something apparently.

So I kept the book as there wasn't time to do it on the handover, so the lady said to keep it and hand it in the next day. It's been snowing so it's been a few days now, I'm handing it in today, and I'd like to know what people think of the following.

Yesterday I had the following email from my solicitor, passed on from ex's solicitor, regarding the handover ex's dad did which was terrible, while the handover lady wasn't available.

We understand that there was a slight change in handover arrangements in respect of the contact that took place on Wednesday 10th January 2024 as a result of XXXX being unavailable. Our client’s father was able to step in on this occasion but it seems that there were difficulties at the handover following contact. Our client’s father met with your client and XXXXX was handed to him. It seems, however, that as our client’s father was heading back to his vehicle, your client delayed leaving which meant that XXXXX saw her father again and called out to him. She became upset, which is something that also happens when our client hands over XXXXX for contact. Instead of walking away to enable XXXXX to settle and be put in her grandfather’s vehicle, however, it seems that your client insisted on taking XXXXX from her grandfather. We are advised that your client suggested that he could not “leave her traumatised” and that if our client’s father did not hand her over to him, he would video the child’s upset. Our client’s father felt threatened.

This is completely unreasonable bearing in mind that our client’s father had stepped in to facilitate contact taking place between your client and his daughter as otherwise it would have been cancelled. Our client, was of course, in her father’s vehicle and she advises that your client was extremely argumentative in his tone.

As soon as your client eventually walked away, our client was able to get out of the vehicle and comfort her daughter. XXXXX we are told, stopped crying within minutes of being in the car and played happily with her toys.

It is concerning that your client appeared to be keen to orchestrate a situation whereby XXXXX became upset and rather than encourage her to become settled, took the entirely opposite approach. Whilst XXXXX is likewise often upset on leaving her mother’s care for contact, our client encourages her to go to her father and deals with such handovers in a positive fashion, in the child’s bests interests. Our client hopes that your client will now likewise do the same. XXXXX was not traumatised by any handover from her father but behaved as any child does in such circumstances.

We trust that you will speak to your client and advise him accordingly.

Yours faithfully


It's incredible how people completely twist things. These version of events are not true, I didn't delay in leaving I walked away straight away, and he followed me, admitting that he left too soon so he was close behind me. My daughter got extremely upset so, as I have said, I went to comfort her. At the same time reassuring her she would be with mummy soon and have hugs and kisses. They are painting an entirely different picture above with this email.

I am thinking I should very briefly address this in the handover book, something like the following,

I'd like to note that on the handover with your dad, I left straight away so XXXX didn't become upset, as she seemed ok at first. He followed me round the corner, which meant XXXX saw me and then became inconsolable, at which point I wanted to comfort and reassure her, which I did. Your dad at the time admitted he was too close behind me and should have waited. xxxx quickly calmed down as soon as she was in my arms, which turned a very difficult situation for her, into a more positive one. I reassured her she would be with mummy very soon and have hugs and kisses. It was a difficult situation because Eliana wanted to stay at the house, and verbally said 'stay at daddy's!'. I reassured her again that she will be able to soon, and daddy and mummy love her very much. We talked about bedtime and saying goodnight, and hugs with mummy.

XXXX welfare and happiness is my priority, which is why when I saw she so distressed I went to comfort her. I'd like to also note that I did not know you were in the car, otherwise I would have felt happier knowing she would be comforted by you. I'm sure you understand however how difficult it is to see XXXX so upset when leaving me, and not wanting to leave her like that. Handovers have always been very positive, let's keep making them so, for her.

There might be a better way to word it, I don't want it to sound like conflict but I think it's important to make a note of this, as evidence, as Cafcass person could read this, so I guess I want to continue the amicable parents approach, and diffuse the twisted version that they have said.

 

[Richie1989]

Thanks Richie.

So the last handover I kept the handover book, which is written in by ex and myself each time, general stuff like what she's eaten, but now it's all day there isn't a need to write that, it was to limit the chance of my daughter having too much of something apparently.

So I kept the book as there wasn't time to do it on the handover, so the lady said to keep it and hand it in the next day. It's been snowing so it's been a few days now, I'm handing it in today, and I'd like to know what people think of the following.

Yesterday I had the following email from my solicitor, passed on from ex's solicitor, regarding the handover ex's dad did which was terrible, while the handover lady wasn't available.

We understand that there was a slight change in handover arrangements in respect of the contact that took place on Wednesday 10th January 2024 as a result of XXXX being unavailable. Our client’s father was able to step in on this occasion but it seems that there were difficulties at the handover following contact. Our client’s father met with your client and XXXXX was handed to him. It seems, however, that as our client’s father was heading back to his vehicle, your client delayed leaving which meant that XXXXX saw her father again and called out to him. She became upset, which is something that also happens when our client hands over XXXXX for contact. Instead of walking away to enable XXXXX to settle and be put in her grandfather’s vehicle, however, it seems that your client insisted on taking XXXXX from her grandfather. We are advised that your client suggested that he could not “leave her traumatised” and that if our client’s father did not hand her over to him, he would video the child’s upset. Our client’s father felt threatened.

This is completely unreasonable bearing in mind that our client’s father had stepped in to facilitate contact taking place between your client and his daughter as otherwise it would have been cancelled. Our client, was of course, in her father’s vehicle and she advises that your client was extremely argumentative in his tone.

As soon as your client eventually walked away, our client was able to get out of the vehicle and comfort her daughter. XXXXX we are told, stopped crying within minutes of being in the car and played happily with her toys.

It is concerning that your client appeared to be keen to orchestrate a situation whereby XXXXX became upset and rather than encourage her to become settled, took the entirely opposite approach. Whilst XXXXX is likewise often upset on leaving her mother’s care for contact, our client encourages her to go to her father and deals with such handovers in a positive fashion, in the child’s bests interests. Our client hopes that your client will now likewise do the same. XXXXX was not traumatised by any handover from her father but behaved as any child does in such circumstances.

We trust that you will speak to your client and advise him accordingly.

Yours faithfully


It's incredible how people completely twist things. These version of events are not true, I didn't delay in leaving I walked away straight away, and he followed me, admitting that he left too soon so he was close behind me. My daughter got extremely upset so, as I have said, I went to comfort her. At the same time reassuring her she would be with mummy soon and have hugs and kisses. They are painting an entirely different picture above with this email.

I am thinking I should very briefly address this in the handover book, something like the following,

I'd like to note that on the handover with your dad, I left straight away so XXXX didn't become upset, as she seemed ok at first. He followed me round the corner, which meant XXXX saw me and then became inconsolable, at which point I wanted to comfort and reassure her, which I did. Your dad at the time admitted he was too close behind me and should have waited. Eliana quickly calmed down as soon as she was in my arms, which turned a very difficult situation for her, into a more positive one. I reassured her she would be with mummy very soon and have hugs and kisses. It was a difficult situation because Eliana wanted to stay at the house, and verbally said 'stay at daddy's!'. I reassured her again that she will be able to soon, and daddy and mummy love her very much. We talked about bedtime and saying goodnight, and hugs with mummy.

XXXX welfare and happiness is my priority, which is why when I saw she so distressed I went to comfort her. I'd like to also note that I did not know you were in the car, otherwise I would have felt happier knowing she would be comforted by you. I'm sure you understand however how difficult it is to see XXXX so upset when leaving me, and not wanting to leave her like that. Handovers have always been very positive, let's keep making them so, for her.

There might be a better way to word it, I don't want it to sound like conflict but I think it's important to make a note of this, as evidence, as Cafcass person could read this, so I guess I want to continue the amicable parents approach, and diffuse the twisted version that they have said.

Hey mate,

First thing I will say is try and not let it trigger you. The thing is when it comes to final hearing the judge won’t give a crap about she said / he said. Try and not get pulled into a very expensive “proving a point” process. If the solicitor manages to get you both slinging mud they will rub their hands £££. End of the day you guys having disputes and points to prove makes them money and distracts you from your main priority. A mass majority the things being said by solicitors are not worth the paper it’s written on. I got pulled into that very process and now a huge part of the things that were being said between solicitors have just become trash on my laptop! Wasted money. I felt I had to respond to protect myself or somehow try and prove them wrong. Your ex solicitor will use language and a narrative that will keep you responding. Don’t give them the satisfaction. I do understand though you need to somehow create a record and not to justify or explain yourself but somehow defend yourself on record. Don’t show emotion because that will show it’s hurting you and that’s what they want. Emotion just gives more ammo to them.

The thing is as well your ex is going to side with your dad all day long! They want you to be the bad guy so they will encourage each other and your exs dad sounds similar to my exs mum. So the trick here is to defuse it and put out fires and make sure they don’t spread because that to feed their cravings until they become hungry again. The letter from the solicitor is wanting you to be dragged in as well so my advice is don’t let them. Let your ex waste her money and you keep all you can for the final hearing as that is where it actually counts.

The position you have found yourself in like I mentioned I was in that very situation myself and it’s shit! My exs mum thoroughly enjoyed trying to make things hard work for me. So I totally understand why you would prefer your ex to do changeovers because you know your daughter will be more comfortable and your ex will show potentially more empathy. However, to your ex/solicitors they could exploit that and send more antagonising letters saying something along the lines of “you are not over your ex and it’s an excuse to see her” or they could accuse you of “controlling behaviour” so I would focus on the positives with the lady from the church being involved protects you as well while it is all raw and emotive for you and your ex.

I think you are right to mention it in the handover book as this will help you settle and defuse the situation but if it’s like my ex she will soon find something else. So getting used to it now and depending on how you deal with it will help protect you which then helps your daughter. Remember the “gray rock” approach that I mentioned? This situation could actually be empowering for you. So yes i would put a note saying something along the lines of:

It’s a shame the handover with your father turned out like it did after all the really positive handovers with the lady from the church. Maybe our daughter was just a little unsettled maybe she has just got a little used to this lady doing changeover and I just wanted to comfort her the best way I could when I seen she was upset. Of course me and your dad will have conflicting views on how the situation unfolded but it’s imperative we do not let that one disagreement take mine and your focus away from #### who is both our priority. We all have #### best interest at heart and we will all continue with this. It’s vital for #### that the changeovers remain positive and I can assure you that this is my absolute priority. It’s vital that we continue to grow our coparenting relationship.

Does this all make sense to you?

 

[Ash]

Agree - don't let it trigger you. It might be better to reply to the solicitor's letter, briefly, rather than write all that in the handover book. Ignore their dramatising and keep a cool head. The reality is - xxxx became upset at handover, you comforted her. She then went happily.

 

[Richie1989]

Agree - don't let it trigger you. It might be better to reply to the solicitor's letter, briefly, rather than write all that in the handover book. Ignore their dramatising and keep a cool head. The reality is - xxxx became upset at handover, you comforted her. She then went happily.

Yes fair point @Ash
Writing in the handbook could then get a response of using it incorrectly and then even more ammo. I suppose it also goes away from what the handbook is actually used for which could be twisted once again

 

[Peanut 21]

Treat the solicitors letter with the contempt it deserves, ignore it.
Solicitors are the epitome of shit stirrers.
They know the law and they know that when they send their empty threat letters they don't have a leg to stand on. Simply because it is pure speculation.
They make allegations and bs without 0 evidence and having never met you.

 

[winger]

Ok, I won't write it in the handover book.
The email was already replied to, with my own version of events I think, my solicitor did it. I agree they do try and stir it up.

Anyway, in the handover book this time I have written how happy our daughter has been and what a wonderful day we've had. I mentioned that she tried to play out her bedtime routine and she got into bed and tried to go to sleep. I also said that she said when we left the house 'stay at daddys' and that I reassured her she would soon, and that she would see mummy who has lots of hugs. I said I sang her to sleep for her nap.

So I've only put positive stuff and how well it's going.

 

[winger]

Does it sound ok if I put -

When we walked to the church XXXX looked at me and said 'Stay at Daddys', it was a sweet moment, that highlighted her comfort. Just wanted to share this, let's keep making these handovers positive for her! I encouraged her and said mummy is at the church, with lots of hugs.

It's positive, and as I've said highlights my daughters happiness and comfort which is everything. I guess I don't want to antagonise the ex or something but that's not my problem, my focus is my daughter.

 

[Ash]

Your ex has instigated the solicitor's letter, possibly out of fear and feeling threatened that your daughter didn't want to leave you. I agree the solicitor letter needs to be treated with contempt. A brief "these allegations are untrue" could do it.

 

[winger]

Your ex has instigated the solicitor's letter, possibly out of fear and feeling threatened that your daughter didn't want to leave you. I agree the solicitor letter needs to be treated with contempt. A brief "these allegations are untrue" could do it.

Sorry I didn't mean in reply to the solicitors letter I just mean in general, not anything to do with the letter, this was a different time.

 

[Ash]

Oh ok - sorry.

 

[Richie1989]

Does it sound ok if I put -

When we walked to the church XXXX looked at me and said 'Stay at Daddys', it was a sweet moment, that highlighted her comfort. Just wanted to share this, let's keep making these handovers positive for her! I encouraged her and said mummy is at the church, with lots of hugs.

It's positive, and as I've said highlights my daughters happiness and comfort which is everything. I guess I don't want to antagonise the ex or something but that's not my problem, my focus is my daughter.

Nothing wrong with that at all…

However, if she is anything like my ex just saying the words “stay at daddy’s” she would get the mardys on and then say things like “why do you use language like that?, is it to make me feel bad”. I once had depressed to my ex that our daughter was up set when I said “it was time to go back to mummy’s” my ex replied “you don’t see her crying here saying she doesn’t want to come to yours”.

Your ex could be totally fine with that but just good for thought. It’s shit we have to question everything just in case we say the wrong thing which could aggravate things.

Not long matey and all this eggshell bollocks will be over and done for you are you can move forward without feeling like the thought police are always on to you. It’s abuse what they do and hopefully one day it will be a crime!

 

[DB2021]

Your smashing it mate and your little one sees that and that’s why she openly says she wants to stay with daddy that’s the best news ever I’m so pleased for you and it will soon be over and you can get on with your life and build all those happy memories with your little one .

Women like this deliberately try and stir the pot and solicitors only care about money so they will do whatever there client says whether it’s true or not scum of the family court system along side Cafcass snd sw’s.

And exs family will always go along with ex or do and say things to cause agro it’s all a ploy to get you to react which your doing amazingly well not doing so. As others have said ignore solicitors letter not worth the paper it’s written on and dealing with ex/ex family just continue being polite as you have your winning and she hates that

 

[mva]

Solicitor is just stiring the pot at exes request.

I had endless letters like this and wish I had just ingnored them.

I wouldn’t respond / would not write anything in handover book.

If it comes up in court you know you own version.

Going forward I would covertly record handovers if it’s involving her family. They are clearly trying to paint you as the aggressor.

Lawyers have no interest in the truth or resolution just want to keep up correspondence as it’s easy money.

That letter would of cost your ex £100. Wouldn’t the money be better spent on your child

 

[winger]

Thank you everyone helps a lot to hear all this, as always what a great place this is so thankful for it.

 

[winger]

Your smashing it mate and your little one sees that and that’s why she openly says she wants to stay with daddy that’s the best news ever I’m so pleased for you and it will soon be over and you can get on with your life and build all those happy memories with your little one .

Thanks DB

 

[Pj66]

A few options:


Dear xxx,

In response to you letter, my clients perspective on the matter differs to that of your clients.

I refer to your letter dated xxx and note you state as follows:

"... the child's grandfather felt threatened."

As you are no doubt aware, the Solicitor's Regulation Authorities Guidance "Balancing Duties in Litigation" states and page 15 as follows:

"Although solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's case, they must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be properly arguable and they must have regard to the proper administration of justice."

Please provide evidence of the "threatening" behaviour that you refer to.

In the event that this is not forthcoming, I consider your arguments to be not properly arguable. Any further allegations of this nature that are not backed up by evidence, will result in a letter to the Solicitors Regulation Authority expressing my concerns regarding a potential breach of 2.4 of the SRA Code of Conduct, because you have been unable to provide evidence and it appears that your assertions and submissions are not properly arguable.

My sole focus is the best interest of my child and I do not consider your conduct to be in our child's best interest if you are unable to produce evidence.

Worth a try if you want to see if it puts an end to the solicitor's tactics and help reduce conflict.

Or something very very short:

Dear xxxx

In response to your recent letter dated xxxx,

My clients perspective on the matter differs from that of your client. My clients intentions are solely focused on ensuring the wellbeing of his daughter during handovers.

Kind Regards

---
Or nothing, take your pick. Personally I wouldn't even consider replying with furthering anything in that letter that you had considered writing back in your post. it's a black hole that she wants to suck you into, baby mama will feign conflict and when you get sucked into justifying, or even denying any conflict, well that's conflict

Do not, JADE

Justify, argue, defend, explain.

Your barrister/lawyer does that in court for you.

 

[Peanut 21]

Sorry, you may have explained this already but does the court order state who must be there at handovers?
If your ex is that bothered, then she should be at every single handover, not her dad or anyone else.
The court order is for the kids between the parents. Not other family members.
I think there's a few people on here who have had agro from grandparents getting involved. It's a case of some people not growing older and wiser. More growing older and more immature.

 

[nothernsoul]

Perfect advice from above.

Desperate actions from desperate and despicable people.

I'd be given it a brief reply but not bothering with any sort of lengthy explanation.

The above advice is correct, the courts won't care a hoot for this. Therefore, nor should you.

 

[winger]

A few options:


Dear xxx,

In response to you letter, my clients perspective on the matter differs to that of your clients.

I refer to your letter dated xxx and note you state as follows:

"... the child's grandfather felt threatened."

As you are no doubt aware, the Solicitor's Regulation Authorities Guidance "Balancing Duties in Litigation" states and page 15 as follows:

"Although solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's case, they must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be properly arguable and they must have regard to the proper administration of justice."

Please provide evidence of the "threatening" behaviour that you refer to.

In the event that this is not forthcoming, I consider your arguments to be not properly arguable. Any further allegations of this nature that are not backed up by evidence, will result in a letter to the Solicitors Regulation Authority expressing my concerns regarding a potential breach of 2.4 of the SRA Code of Conduct, because you have been unable to provide evidence and it appears that your assertions and submissions are not properly arguable.

My sole focus is the best interest of my child and I do not consider your conduct to be in our child's best interest if you are unable to produce evidence.

Worth a try if you want to see if it puts an end to the solicitor's tactics and help reduce conflict.

Or something very very short:

Dear xxxx

In response to your recent letter dated xxxx,

My clients perspective on the matter differs from that of your client. My clients intentions are solely focused on ensuring the wellbeing of his daughter during handovers.

Kind Regards

---
Or nothing, take your pick. Personally I wouldn't even consider replying with furthering anything in that letter that you had considered writing back in your post. it's a black hole that she wants to suck you into, baby mama will feign conflict and when you get sucked into justifying, or even denying any conflict, well that's conflict

Do not, JADE

Justify, argue, defend, explain.

Your barrister/lawyer does that in court for you.

Great advice thank you PJ, my solicitor replied unfortunately, before I saw all this, but I am not putting anything in the handover book other than complete positives, which is all that it is every time my daughter is with me.