Brilliant summary DW81, and great presentation of the court's responsibilities. I hope you are right in your conclusion. But I fear the court might say they have allowed contact centre time to continue.
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Family Court Cafcas- Advise
- Thread starter wassaw123
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Brilliant summary DW81, and great presentation of the court's responsibilities. I hope you are right in your conclusion. But I fear the court might say they have allowed contact centre time to continue.
Self-repping can work, I think an appeal could be worthwhile. I seem to remember it was 10 days. I also remember thinking that grounds for appeal are quite particular.
I'm not clear on whether or not one of the other courses would be taken into account. Could the appeal be just to get that included in the order? The other possible partial success would be to establish a way of having supervised time outside of a contact centre. There is plenty of time to balance things out over the coming days. It is too soon to have answers settled.
This is probably a crazy long shot, but leave no stone unturned:
I am on a low income. Is there any help available to help cover the costs of using a child contact centre? - NACCC
We are aware of a charity organisation called Turn2us, who advise on benefits and have recently opened what they call a Response Fund. Please contact them
naccc.org.uk
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Though I have not kept completely up to date on any changes the time to apply has always been 21 days from date of hearing appealed.
Case management hearings time limit is 7 days.
Was it a case management hearing/judgement or did it effectively become a final hearing?
Case management hearings time limit is 7 days.
Was it a case management hearing/judgement or did it effectively become a final hearing?
I agree, however, the fathers position is that he can not maintain the costly contact centre, so indirectly and effectively, the court’s (cafcass) weak and unsupported recommendations mean the child-father relationship will sever.
In my view this fact is very important and can not simply be overlooked, notwithstanding the father’s representation potentially failed him miserably if this was not strongly raised as an issue to the judge.
And looking at the Gov advice on the link I shared I actually think it is mistakes where it says you can not appeal simply because the judge is wrong. There is plenty of case law where appeals were allowed and judgements even reversed, because ‘on the facts of the case the judge could not form that view’…
They have a wide ‘ambit of discretion’ however there must be evidence to support the orders and be proportionate , especially when it means not following the overriding objective of maintaining the relationship between father-child.
Look this is only my view. But there are two parts here.
1. The seriousness of findings is not consistent with recommendation for DAPP.
2. This is even more important given there IS no DAPP available for a very long time and father simply can not afford to indefinitely keep paying for contact centre, when there has been not even a suggestion of harm to child!
3. There is case law where the President at the time stated that a cafcass officer’s recommendation stands or falls by the evidence and analysis behind it. How on earth can a DAPP be strongly recommended when there IS no such option available in light of no violence and simply ‘shouting’?
Was the Cafcass officers present, sorry I don’t recall. Was their recommendation tested (cross examined)? They should absolutely have been there and examined.
CAFCASS was not present.
Contact centre not being necessary and course not being available seem like the strong arguments here. I am really impressed with how you reason things through and present an argument DW81
Just submitted the following enquiry to the MoJ, will update when they respond.
"Please see CAFCASS direction to address this enquiry to MoJ here:
www.cafcass.gov.uk
Referrals to DAPP ceased in June, please provide details of the programme which replaces DAPP.
Please detail costs and referral route for the replacement programme.
If the above questions cannot be answered, please provide details of interim arrangements in the absence of a replacement programme.
Thank you."
"Please see CAFCASS direction to address this enquiry to MoJ here:
Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Programme - Cafcass - Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service
Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Programmes help people who have been abusive, change their behaviour and develop non-abusive relationships.
www.cafcass.gov.uk
Referrals to DAPP ceased in June, please provide details of the programme which replaces DAPP.
Please detail costs and referral route for the replacement programme.
If the above questions cannot be answered, please provide details of interim arrangements in the absence of a replacement programme.
Thank you."
Just had a long period with my own case whereby I digested pretty much al the case law for private children law cases in existence at the time (2018).CAFCASS was not present.
Contact centre not being necessary and course not being available seem like the strong arguments here. I am really impressed with how you reason things through and present an argument DW81
I can genuinely see a very high likelihood of error in judgement here based on the principles expected of the family court and it’s professional.
Hopefully if the dad is up to it he can go for it and overturn this. Counsel would be optimal but not absolutely essential. Though the help of one to at least draft the skeleton argument would be advisable.
First thing is to ensure whether the 7 day or 21 day time limit applies hence the question of whether a ‘final order’ was made?
To be honest I’ve read appeals way out of time, as long as very reasonable excuse can be given but to be water tight best to act within the time limits.
As for the appeal, I second the opinion that counsel is highly needed to at least write the skeleton argument. You may wish to find a pro-bono barrister https://weareadvocate.org.uk/ . Privately I believe a barrister may charge anything between £1k to £2k to prepare this document for you
Was this a final hearing? You needed to have Cafcass on the stand to be cross examined and undermine their recommendation. Yes it sounds like your solicitor was apathetic (a direct access barrister may have been better).
I would also appeal. Did you have any luck finding a course. Elsewhere I was told the courses are available with various providers, but the Government is just not funding them right now - but local authority might.
I would also appeal. Did you have any luck finding a course. Elsewhere I was told the courses are available with various providers, but the Government is just not funding them right now - but local authority might.
Just submitted the following enquiry to the MoJ, will update when they respond.
"Please see CAFCASS direction to address this enquiry to MoJ here:
Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Programme - Cafcass - Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service
Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Programmes help people who have been abusive, change their behaviour and develop non-abusive relationships.
Referrals to DAPP ceased in June, please provide details of the programme which replaces DAPP.
Please detail costs and referral route for the replacement programme.
If the above questions cannot be answered, please provide details of interim arrangements in the absence of a replacement programme.
Thank you."
Here is the response, some useful bits I think:
"Thank you for your email of 28 November about the Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Programmes (DAPPs).
As a government official I have been asked to respond.
The current commissioning arrangements for DAPPs in private family law, via the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service (Cafcass), come to an end on 31 March 2023. Given the length of time required for referral, suitability assessment and completion of DAPPs, this means that Cafcass are now unable to make referrals to DAPPs until the commissioning arrangements are up and running again.
Whilst some parents may be able to fund their own DAPP, Cafcass cannot recommend this, and it is a matter for the court whether to direct self-funded attendance.
Families affected by domestic abuse should receive the best support possible, and the Ministry of Justice is working with providers and the domestic abuse sector to address the current lack of family court provision by developing interim arrangements, including potential new referral mechanisms, ahead of a full recommissioning process.
In the longer term, a new DAPP offer will be developed to better meet the diverse needs of children and families who have experienced domestic abuse. It will build on the Harm Panel recommendations, the collective recommendation of the DAPP Review Steering Group, and the cross-Government work on domestic abuse arising from the Domestic Abuse Act and the Domestic Abuse Plan.
A timetable for the introduction of the new DAPP offer will be confirmed in due course.
Yours sincerely
Julia Fulcher
Ministry of Justice
This is an interesting thread, what I found strange was when in court, the ex's legal was trying to "negotiate" moreover get me to admit to Verbal abuse then they would drop some of the other allegations, it would appear that even if you think that is not that bad, think again, the key to unlocking all of this unfortunately is Cafcass, after this Fact Find is resolved the s7 is the part where I thought Cafcass come and speak to both of you to find out what is really going on, it would appear that you have either said something/your solicitor has given up something or that on the s7 Cafcass has had a reason to recommend a DAPP, I can't seriously believe that simply saying your admitted to shouting at your ex partner has caused all this, for a start you ended up on the left side of this diagram,
Even if you can't afford a Solicitor try get some representation at every hearing, the Ex's legal will pretend they are negotiating or giving something up, but the reality is they are not, in your position statement keep child focussed and concise, however it pretty much means nothing or at least my experience of it, no one has looked at it whatsoever.
I have learned that the legal aid that the ex gets is £8k max so most of these smash and grab paralegal's just want to rinse that and get out fast, where the ex ends up on her own is when the funding runs out, naturally my ex is on a high at the min, getting everything she wants, loving the limelight and loving every min of it, remember lads that funding won't last forever.... nothing does keep strong!
Even if you can't afford a Solicitor try get some representation at every hearing, the Ex's legal will pretend they are negotiating or giving something up, but the reality is they are not, in your position statement keep child focussed and concise, however it pretty much means nothing or at least my experience of it, no one has looked at it whatsoever.
I have learned that the legal aid that the ex gets is £8k max so most of these smash and grab paralegal's just want to rinse that and get out fast, where the ex ends up on her own is when the funding runs out, naturally my ex is on a high at the min, getting everything she wants, loving the limelight and loving every min of it, remember lads that funding won't last forever.... nothing does keep strong!
Attachments
This is outrageous. It's basically saying - there is no acceptable course you can do until we find one goodness knows when.
Sorry I meant my deleted post was in the wrong thread, not yours
This further proves that the outcome of the hearing was flawed.
This should have been made known to the party by the court/cafcass or to the judge by cafcass if he didn’t know.
Especially given the very low level allegations (yelling - once) the outcome was plainly flawed and should be quite easily overturned.
Yes, I agree. Especially this bit:
"Whilst some parents may be able to fund their own DAPP, Cafcass cannot recommend this, and it is a matter for the court whether to direct self-funded attendance."
An official from MoJ has discredited Cafcass recommendation in this case. They have also clearly stated that it is within the court's remit to "direct" attendance by an alternative route.
On the face of it, this letter strongly supports revisiting outcome of last hearing.
"Whilst some parents may be able to fund their own DAPP, Cafcass cannot recommend this, and it is a matter for the court whether to direct self-funded attendance."
An official from MoJ has discredited Cafcass recommendation in this case. They have also clearly stated that it is within the court's remit to "direct" attendance by an alternative route.
On the face of it, this letter strongly supports revisiting outcome of last hearing.