Help please

[Resolute]

Lots of helpful stuff from Ash above, good beavering!

It is possible that the child fell into wardship or similar at some point and progress to Australia went from there. The Birth Cert should be public record and relatively easy to attain if birth was in ROI. I do not know if records relating to court processes are public. There may also be records you are entitled to see in Australia. I'd definitely want to know everything possible about the situation as it stands before I made my first move. If the child was ward of the court and went to current guardians to avoid care proceedings (GB Terms). The basis of where we are now might be different.

 

[Resolute]

Not sure what that means Resolute. ROI?

Sux years is a long time. How old is she now?

Hi Ash

Sorry for being opaque.

I did mean Republic of Ireland.

 

[Resolute]

Here is something interesting from Wikipedia:

Adopted children are treated as if they were naturally born to the adopting parents at the time and location of adoption; those adopted in Australia automatically receive citizenship.

Australian nationality law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did the child have an Australian passport?

 

[Seanmckenna]

Here is something interesting from Wikipedia:

Adopted children are treated as if they were naturally born to the adopting parents at the time and location of adoption; those adopted in Australia automatically receive citizenship.

Australian nationality law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did the child have an Australian passport?

She has an Irish passport and is currently waiting her Australian citizenship. This is coming from her. She said they applied for her citizenship over a year ago but it takes ages.

 

[Resolute]

So she was not adopted in Australia.

You paying them may have bearing on the decision around citizenship

I wonder if there is a way of you taking action before she becomes an Australian national. Also, I wonder what impact a decision to accept her as an Australian national would have on your position.

 

[Seanmckenna]

So she was not adopted in Australia.

You paying them may have bearing on the decision around citizenship

I wonder if there is a way of you taking action before she becomes an Australian national. Also, I wonder what impact a decision to accept her as an Australian national would have on your position.

They haven’t adopted her

 

[Resolute]

They haven’t adopted her

If I were them, adoption is what I would look to do/have done.

 

[Seanmckenna]

That’s a very good point. I wonder have they adopted her in the meantime. She still uses her mother’s surname but not her aunties married name.

 

[Resolute]

That’s a very good point. I wonder have they adopted her in the meantime. She still uses her mother’s surname but not her aunties married name.

My earlier post was not explicit enough.

If it is true that child awaits decision on Australian citizenship.

Guardians cannot have adopted.

But, do not underestimate the level of duplicity that could be at play.

 

[Seanmckenna]

My earlier post was not explicit enough.

If it is true that child awaits decision on Australian citizenship.

Guardians cannot have adopted.

But, do not underestimate the level of duplicity that could be at play.

Thanks for the advice resolute.

 

[Ash]

I would have taken the child immediately when the mother died but I wasn’t given the option by the courts.

And that is the point exactly. Nobody contacted you - because they didn't want to. To get the child out of Ireland I suspect they'll have had to go to court and say the Father is unknown/absent and we are appointed Guardians in the Mother's will. Even so I think a court might say - well try and track him down first.

So it's possible they just took her to Australia without anything legal being done at all.

Likewise they can't adopt her without the consent of the remaining biological parent.

If she had Australian citizenship I think you'd have a hard job getting her returned to the UK or Ireland. Which is maybe why they are doing it.

I think it would be worth applying to court for a residency order, as the only remaining biological parent, saying you weren't informed the Mother had died and you weren't informed your child had been take to Australia and if you had known you would have wanted her to live with you and been responsible for her.

 

[Resolute]

Is it necessary to get PR first? They may have told court in Ireland that the ex was only person with PR. If you do not have PR, that would have been accurate. Obviously not the whole truth.

 

[Ash]

An application would include for PR as well but it depends whether the application needs to be to the Uk courts or the Irish courts - he'd need legal advice on that. Regardless of whether or not he had PR or the equivalent (Guardian) he is still a biological parent and that article makes clear that a biological parent still comes first whether or not the Mother had agreed Guardianship with the Father.

 

[Ash]

Technically, your daughter could have been abducted. But hard to know without knowing if there were any court orders.

 

[Resolute]

it depends whether the application needs to be to the Uk courts or the Irish courts - he'd need legal advice on that.

I agree. The legal ground has to be made clear. In terms of the past, and of next steps. There may have been public hearings related to this in ROI. The basis used to take her out of the country is important. If there is a legal situation relating to where she lives and PR in ROI and Australia. Could the Hague Convention tie hands of NI court? I would think about speaking to barrister or solicitor that specialises in international child custody cases for initial advice. You could find out which jurisdiction should have your focus.

Information on the other side is really important. If you make a move that gives your intention away, they may take steps to block you. What Ash said about abduction is pertinent. If you can establish you are in the strong position legally. Why not get her over to you again and start the battle with her in your care? They can fight for her to be deported to Australia. Rather than vice versa.

The elephant in the room is what would your daughter have to say on all this. If you try to get her over and she says her life is in Australia... Hmmm.

 

[Ash]

Agree that it's best not to ask the relatives or they could use it against you somehow. I think the only way to find out something is to apply to the courts and say you are the only biological parent and weren't aware of the Mother's death, or that the child had been moved to Australia until recently, and you want to apply for her to be returned to the jurisdiction and live with you and visit her relatives in Australia.

You just need to check which jurisdiction it is by asking a lawyer. As you are a Uk citizen and an Irish citizen has a right to live in the Uk, I would have thought it was the Uk courts.

 

[Seanmckenna]

And that is the point exactly. Nobody contacted you - because they didn't want to. To get the child out of Ireland I suspect they'll have had to go to court and say the Father is unknown/absent and we are appointed Guardians in the Mother's will. Even so I think a court might say - well try and track him down first.

So it's possible they just took her to Australia without anything legal being done at all.

Likewise they can't adopt her without the consent of the remaining biological parent.

If she had Australian citizenship I think you'd have a hard job getting her returned to the UK or Ireland. Which is maybe why they are doing it.

I think it would be worth applying to court for a residency order, as the only remaining biological parent, saying you weren't informed the Mother had died and you weren't informed your child had been take to Australia and if you had known you would have wanted her to live with you and been responsible for her.

Agree that it's best not to ask the relatives or they could use it against you somehow. I think the only way to find out something is to apply to the courts and say you are the only biological parent and weren't aware of the Mother's death, or that the child had been moved to Australia until recently, and you want to apply for her to be returned to the jurisdiction and live with you and visit her relatives in Australia.

You just need to check which jurisdiction it is by asking a lawyer. As you are a Uk citizen and an Irish citizen has a right to live in the Uk, I would have thought it was the Uk courts.

 

[Seanmckenna]

I agree. The legal ground has to be made clear. In terms of the past, and of next steps. There may have been public hearings related to this in ROI. The basis used to take her out of the country is important. If there is a legal situation relating to where she lives and PR in ROI and Australia. Could the Hague Convention tie hands of NI court? I would think about speaking to barrister or solicitor that specialises in international child custody cases for initial advice. You could find out which jurisdiction should have your focus.

Information on the other side is really important. If you make a move that gives your intention away, they may take steps to block you. What Ash said about abduction is pertinent. If you can establish you are in the strong position legally. Why not get her over to you again and start the battle with her in your care? They can fight for her to be deported to Australia. Rather than vice versa.

The elephant in the room is what would your daughter have to say on all this. If you try to get her over and she says her life is in Australia... Hmmm.

After she returned to Australia from staying with me, her guardians made it very clear that if we were to see her again, we would need to go to Australia. They are making it very clear they are in total control. And to touch on another point. If the courts asked my daughter where she wanted to live , she would say Australia. She has mentioned a few times that her ‘mum and dad’ have given up a lot and spent a lot of money on her down the years.

The warning signs were there from the first email contact from the guardians. One paragraph started “ if you want her to continue living with us, you need to contribute financially”. Strange wording

 

[Ash]

if you want her to continue living with us, you need to contribute financially”.

That is strange wording. Well you could say no I don't want her to continue living with you, I'd like her to live with me - her Dad.

 

[Ash]

So how and when did you first find out a) that your ex had died and b) that your daughter was living in Australia? Did the relatives contact you and tell you? And how long ago was that? I wonder why they allowed her to come for 6 weeks was it? And now won't allow it again.