We have a large family here . She has limited family in Australia. She has a half brother here and they got on great. About halfway through the holiday they were FaceTiming her maybe 3 times daily. They couldn’t get her back quick enough. She was promised a phone to wattsup us here with a more casual communication ( she is 12) . We gave her money for new phone. Well, she didn’t a phone and our only communication is when her aunt or uncle gives her access to their phones so they are in control
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- Thread starter Seanmckenna
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Ok
Suicide note, Eire, NI, Oz
I'd start by trying to understand what happened to the child from time of the suicide. There must have been a process. I would have thought the natural line would have been to you as the biological father.
In the UK you can appoint a Guardian in your will. They are nominated to take the child in the event of your death. I do not believe this is watertight though.
I'd be very interested in how the relatives assumed control. It feels like there should be more than a suicide note involved in the decision. Were they already in Oz? Or did they adopt under ROI legislation?
More questions than answers here I'm afraid.
Suicide note, Eire, NI, Oz
I'd start by trying to understand what happened to the child from time of the suicide. There must have been a process. I would have thought the natural line would have been to you as the biological father.
In the UK you can appoint a Guardian in your will. They are nominated to take the child in the event of your death. I do not believe this is watertight though.
I'd be very interested in how the relatives assumed control. It feels like there should be more than a suicide note involved in the decision. Were they already in Oz? Or did they adopt under ROI legislation?
More questions than answers here I'm afraid.
They were already in oz and came back to Ireland to take her. I have no idea how she ended up in Australia so soon after the death. I have no idea of anything really. I feel they see me as an easy target now and ask for money because I don’t ask questions. Just something doesn’t feel right
I wonder by what authority they took a child half way around the world?
Chances are this is academic to a degree. Status Quo can trump legal basis. But, I wonder if lack of legal basis would make a crazy idea more workable...
At 12, the child's wishes and feeling are very important.
Chances are this is academic to a degree. Status Quo can trump legal basis. But, I wonder if lack of legal basis would make a crazy idea more workable...
At 12, the child's wishes and feeling are very important.
Would it be wrong of me to ask the guardians directly for copies of legal paperwork for the whole process or is that something only a solicitor could ask for?
I do not know
My idea would be to find out as much as possible before asking them for anything. Maybe even to make your move before asking them for anything. I have not found family law to be a particularly honourable field.
I can imagine . As it stands I pay x amount per month as an informal agreement between me and the guardians which I’m happy to do. If they ask me for more, can I just tell them to hit the road ?
You can tell them what you like 
The question is what can they do in response. It is very complicated that this involves 3 jurisdictions. None of which are the one members here have fought their battles in.
Before you make any decisions you need to be confident about points of law you will rely upon.
I'd not be too eager to commit more money without knowing when I'll be seeing the kid. It is difficult to see what direct mechanism they would have to get money from you without massive legal fees.
Maybe lots of research and some very careful consideration is what you need here. We usually try to sort out arrangements for the child before focusing on finances.
The question is what can they do in response. It is very complicated that this involves 3 jurisdictions. None of which are the one members here have fought their battles in.
Before you make any decisions you need to be confident about points of law you will rely upon.
I'd not be too eager to commit more money without knowing when I'll be seeing the kid. It is difficult to see what direct mechanism they would have to get money from you without massive legal fees.
Maybe lots of research and some very careful consideration is what you need here. We usually try to sort out arrangements for the child before focusing on finances.
No no it’s not the money . It’s the fact that I think they are taking advantageYou can tell them what you like
The question is what can they do in response. It is very complicated that this involves 3 jurisdictions. None of which are the one members here have fought their battles in.
Before you make any decisions you need to be confident about points of law you will rely upon.
I'd not be too eager to commit more money without knowing when I'll be seeing the kid. It is difficult to see what direct mechanism they would have to get money from you without massive legal fees.
Maybe lots of research and some very careful consideration is what you need here. We usually try to sort out arrangements for the child before focusing on finances.
From what sean has said. The child is with relatives in a Hague convention, English speaking country. All adults are English speaking and Dad is a Uk citizen in the Uk. Child has a different nationality from birth but western european.
I suspect though, that as a legal parent, it doesn't matter if child has a different birth nationality to you and could have dual nationality.
My view on this is, that even if the Mother, in a will, appointed a relative to be a legal guardian, that guardianship would only come into place if there was no other living biological parent. A biological parent comes first. Unless the relative has adopted the child and I don't think they can without your consent.
If you want your daughter to live with you, you'd need some legal advice to know which country's court to apply to but I suspect it would be a Uk court as you're a Uk citizen. But it might not be, if the jurisdiction of the child is the Mother's country. You can get a free half hour's legal advice from a solicitor or three.
Once it's determined which country's court you need to apply to you can apply for a Parental Responsibility order and residency - you'd need proof of parentage via the dna test results.
How long has your daughter been living with the relatives?
I think I take your point about the demands for money - you mean it's like blackmail? Send us money or you don't see your daughter?
I suspect though, that as a legal parent, it doesn't matter if child has a different birth nationality to you and could have dual nationality.
My view on this is, that even if the Mother, in a will, appointed a relative to be a legal guardian, that guardianship would only come into place if there was no other living biological parent. A biological parent comes first. Unless the relative has adopted the child and I don't think they can without your consent.
If you want your daughter to live with you, you'd need some legal advice to know which country's court to apply to but I suspect it would be a Uk court as you're a Uk citizen. But it might not be, if the jurisdiction of the child is the Mother's country. You can get a free half hour's legal advice from a solicitor or three.
Once it's determined which country's court you need to apply to you can apply for a Parental Responsibility order and residency - you'd need proof of parentage via the dna test results.
How long has your daughter been living with the relatives?
I think I take your point about the demands for money - you mean it's like blackmail? Send us money or you don't see your daughter?
Sorry I missed bits above when I wrote my post earlier 
I think maybe the only way they could have achieved legal paperwork would have been to say they were the child's next of kin, guardians in the Mother's will and to say the Father is absent, has never been involved, and doesn't have PR. I'm not sure that would be enough if it was uk law and I think they would have had to try and contact the Father before any papers were issued.
My thinking is - you're her Dad - flesh and blood. She clearly connected with you. However nice her relatives are. But I can't see any Uk court (not sure about Irish court) ordering a child to come and live in the Uk when they are 12. As Resolute says, the child's wishes would count and it could be difficult for the child to express her true wishes when she's on the other side of the world and the relatives might try and influence her.
As for money, I don't think you actually have to pay them anything. It all sounds voluntary. Why should you if they've taken your daughter? Unless you agree to her living with them? They're not legal parents. Child Maintenance is intended for non resident parents to pay to pay a resident parent.
Your relatives probably don't have a residency order - and if they do - they're still not parents.
As I mentioned you might need some legal advice on this. So the issue is, if you don't pay them they might not let you see your daughter. Which essentially is blackmail.
How come, after all these years, they let her come and stay with you for six weeks? Did you ask them? Was it a carrot to then say - we want more money. I don't think much of them as Guardians if they're not prepared to pay to bring the child up themselves.
As for how to find out about if there's any legal paperwork - maybe you could write to the courts in Ireland giving your child's name and ask if there are any orders in place for her. You'd probably need to send proof of identity.
I doubt they would want to give you any and you wouldn't know what was what - if they were keeping any back for example, or whether there was any at all if they just didn't respond.
I think maybe the only way they could have achieved legal paperwork would have been to say they were the child's next of kin, guardians in the Mother's will and to say the Father is absent, has never been involved, and doesn't have PR. I'm not sure that would be enough if it was uk law and I think they would have had to try and contact the Father before any papers were issued.
My thinking is - you're her Dad - flesh and blood. She clearly connected with you. However nice her relatives are. But I can't see any Uk court (not sure about Irish court) ordering a child to come and live in the Uk when they are 12. As Resolute says, the child's wishes would count and it could be difficult for the child to express her true wishes when she's on the other side of the world and the relatives might try and influence her.
As for money, I don't think you actually have to pay them anything. It all sounds voluntary. Why should you if they've taken your daughter? Unless you agree to her living with them? They're not legal parents. Child Maintenance is intended for non resident parents to pay to pay a resident parent.
Your relatives probably don't have a residency order - and if they do - they're still not parents.
As I mentioned you might need some legal advice on this. So the issue is, if you don't pay them they might not let you see your daughter. Which essentially is blackmail.
How come, after all these years, they let her come and stay with you for six weeks? Did you ask them? Was it a carrot to then say - we want more money. I don't think much of them as Guardians if they're not prepared to pay to bring the child up themselves.
As for how to find out about if there's any legal paperwork - maybe you could write to the courts in Ireland giving your child's name and ask if there are any orders in place for her. You'd probably need to send proof of identity.
Ok there's some useful info on this site for Ireland. (And it sounds like the term Guardian is the equivalent to PR or residency in Ireland). (Link at the bottom of the post under the quotes).
So as an unmarried parent, who presumably didn't live with the Mother for 12 months. You're not automatically a legal guardian. The Mother was the sole Guardian. Presumably the Mother didn't enter into an agreement with you before she died for you to be a Guardian, therefore as sole Guardian, when she died there was no legal Guardian.
The word Guardian can have different meanings though - in the Uk anyway. Normally a parent wouldn't be classed as a Guardian.
As a parent though you can be given legal Guardianship by the court regardless of whether or not you're on the birth certificate. You would then beome the child's Legal Guardian Parent.
Under the section for step parents and others (and it mentions Grandparents so presumably that includes other relatives) it says they can apply to court for legal guardianship if they've looked after the child for 12 months or more AND THERE IS NO PARENT OR GUARDIAN ABLE OR WILLING TO EXERCISE THE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THE CHILD.
The bit in caps suggests very strongly that the relatives can ONLY become Guardians if you had been approached and asked if you as a PARENT were willing to take the child.
If they didn't do this (which presumably they didn't) then either they don't have any legal guardianship or they told the courts there was no other parent - eg absent and not contactable - for example. Without trying to contact you.
The fact your ex appointed them as "Guardians" (ie the other type of Guardian) in her will, would have helped their case for legal guardianship. But I am surprised a court would give it to them when there is another living parent who has not been asked.
So a question for you. If you had been asked to take your child, at the time of your ex's suicide, would you have done so? When did you find out about the fact your daughter was living in Australia and the Mother had died?
I still think if you applied to court, you would be given legal Guardianship, as the only biological parent. Particularly if you can say you weren't contacted at the time your daughter was taken in by relatives and nobody sought your consent.
However, whether the court would make an order to the relatives to say they must return the child to you, I don't know.
So as an unmarried parent, who presumably didn't live with the Mother for 12 months. You're not automatically a legal guardian. The Mother was the sole Guardian. Presumably the Mother didn't enter into an agreement with you before she died for you to be a Guardian, therefore as sole Guardian, when she died there was no legal Guardian.
The word Guardian can have different meanings though - in the Uk anyway. Normally a parent wouldn't be classed as a Guardian.
As a parent though you can be given legal Guardianship by the court regardless of whether or not you're on the birth certificate. You would then beome the child's Legal Guardian Parent.
Under the section for step parents and others (and it mentions Grandparents so presumably that includes other relatives) it says they can apply to court for legal guardianship if they've looked after the child for 12 months or more AND THERE IS NO PARENT OR GUARDIAN ABLE OR WILLING TO EXERCISE THE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THE CHILD.
The bit in caps suggests very strongly that the relatives can ONLY become Guardians if you had been approached and asked if you as a PARENT were willing to take the child.
If they didn't do this (which presumably they didn't) then either they don't have any legal guardianship or they told the courts there was no other parent - eg absent and not contactable - for example. Without trying to contact you.
The fact your ex appointed them as "Guardians" (ie the other type of Guardian) in her will, would have helped their case for legal guardianship. But I am surprised a court would give it to them when there is another living parent who has not been asked.
So a question for you. If you had been asked to take your child, at the time of your ex's suicide, would you have done so? When did you find out about the fact your daughter was living in Australia and the Mother had died?
I still think if you applied to court, you would be given legal Guardianship, as the only biological parent. Particularly if you can say you weren't contacted at the time your daughter was taken in by relatives and nobody sought your consent.
However, whether the court would make an order to the relatives to say they must return the child to you, I don't know.
Some more info here. Guardianship and custody are not the same thing. Any Guardian appointed in the Will of a Guardian takes over "temporary" Guardianship.
From the sound of this - if you applied for Guardianship now, you would be joint Guardians with the relatives. As such you're more equal then. And you certainly shouldn't be having to be pay them child support. IMO
However I know that is all Irish Law and you're a Uk citizen. So that confuses the issue!
homsassist.ie
According to this, a child with Irish citizenship has a legal right to live in the Uk. Presumably with a parent living in the Uk.
In which case you might be dealing with the Uk courts and applying for PR and a "Lives with" order.
www.citizensadvice.org.uk
From the sound of this - if you applied for Guardianship now, you would be joint Guardians with the relatives. As such you're more equal then. And you certainly shouldn't be having to be pay them child support. IMO
However I know that is all Irish Law and you're a Uk citizen. So that confuses the issue!
Legal Guardianship & Father’s Rights Ireland | Homs Assist
Many fathers and indeed cohabiting couples who are not married to each other are under the mistaken impression that the placing of the father’s name on the child’s birth certificate automatically gives guardianship rights to the unmarried father.
homsassist.ie
According to this, a child with Irish citizenship has a legal right to live in the Uk. Presumably with a parent living in the Uk.
In which case you might be dealing with the Uk courts and applying for PR and a "Lives with" order.
Check if your child can get a permanent right to live in the UK
Check if your child can get indefinite leave to live in the UK, including the rules about your income.
I wasn’t contacted by the courts when the mother passed. I wasn’t aware that she had passed and wasn’t aware until 2 years ago that my child had been living in Australia for 5 years.Some more info here. Guardianship and custody are not the same thing. Any Guardian appointed in the Will of a Guardian takes over "temporary" Guardianship.
From the sound of this - if you applied for Guardianship now, you would be joint Guardians with the relatives. As such you're more equal then. And you certainly shouldn't be having to be pay them child support. IMO
However I know that is all Irish Law and you're a Uk citizen. So that confuses the issue!
Legal Guardianship & Father’s Rights Ireland | Homs Assist
Many fathers and indeed cohabiting couples who are not married to each other are under the mistaken impression that the placing of the father’s name on the child’s birth certificate automatically gives guardianship rights to the unmarried father.
According to this, a child with Irish citizenship has a legal right to live in the Uk. Presumably with a parent living in the Uk.
In which case you might be dealing with the Uk courts and applying for PR and a "Lives with" order.
Check if your child can get a permanent right to live in the UK
Check if your child can get indefinite leave to live in the UK, including the rules about your income.
If a court gave permission for a child to be taken out of the country, without first notifying the remaining biological parent, would suggest that the guardians are now responsible for that child’s upbringing.
Why then are they making financial demands from me (this isn’t about money but the general principle). Surely they can’t have it both ways. I would have taken the child immediately when the mother died but I wasn’t given the option by the courts.
I’m asking questions that I should have asked of them 2 years ago. I have given them power and control. I’m beginning to think they have neither. I feel they are using the child for financial gain and this is what annoys me.