Communication breakdown

[Ash]

I think it could go round in circles with that thinking. I'd say, bring it on. If she takes out a non mol, she has nothing! You haven't even seen her for weeks. You had one tiff at her house. No evidence of anything whatsoever.

It will almost certainly go to a final hearing - most cases do. First hearing is almost just a tick box if there's no likelihood of agreement being reached.

The thing to remember is - you are not unsafe for your child and she can't even claim that as you've hardly seen the child. That is what it's about. Personally I think it would do her good to have to do what a court tells her and knock her down a peg or two - when she realises she isn't the only parent.

I think you should just put the application in - and make sure the wording isn't inflammatory.

 

[nothernsoul]

Absolutely this.

You are NEVER going to get any peace of mind until you have an order.

Please stop over thinking it all.

You'll be playing with a losing hand your entire fatherhood unless you act.

Get it in.

 

[Peanut 21]

The key weapon these types of people use is fear.
It's a psyops type of fear.
They get your brain into over drive. You wonder what their next move is and what allegations they will make.
When there are older children involved they then weaponise the kids into using similar tactics.
They get the kids worked up and they start to emotionally blackmail you. The kids almost terrorise you into believing that if you don't give into their demands or you tell them off in a way they don't like they'll tell on you or reject you.

It's bloody hard work but this is when you have to become resilient and stand your ground.

This doesn't mean you become aggressive or bolshy.
You politely refute allegations. You rise above it. With your children you have to set boundaries and let them know you're the adult and they're the kid. Call their (ex/kids) bluff when they make threats of making allegations.
If you know you're innocent, the truth will out. Even if it takes months or years.

 

[Pj66]

thanks guys for the advise, its tough decision for me, because also usnure what i actually want. I have worries about the responibility and if i should ask for 50 50. I get concerened that if i dont, it may stay that way forever, and that if i do, then the mother is goign to have a mental breakdown and make the whole process and life difficult forever simply becuase it would seem to her that im trying to take baby away even though im not. Whereas if i just ask for visitation maybe to EOW, she may feel relieved? i dont know if i should simply ask for 50 50 progressing shcedule from the offset, and for her to be on the monstrous defensive mode forever where shes thinking im going to always come after it, even if the judge doesnt order that. Im also thinking about what may be best for daughter and its a tough one because things can change so much due to her young age.

I really dont know whats best for her at the moment... Part of me thinks that she might be better off staying more time with mum, because i dont have any friends who are parents really and i know that the mother has a few with children and her family has had 2 daughters so they are more equipped, i have mostly no experience with babys at all and onyl had brothers, never even held on till i held my daughter and the mother seems reluctant to have me involved in anythign that would show i can care for daughter such as feeding etc and has tried to relegate me to play centre dad holding daughter for 2 hours.

I take it i should oinly ask the judge for an order of exactly what i want in th even t of no agreement, and not as a position of negotiationg down? Do i approach this by asking for what i want and not moving an inch whatsoever as long as its reasonable?

 

[Pj66]

Also ex is taking daughter out of country now without consent, there is into a mediation informal document stating that, I haven't signed anything, is this anything I can use or is it just going to be slap on the wrist?

 

[mva]

Mediation is not legally binding . So there is nothing you can do unless written specifically in a court order.

 

[Richie1989]

Also ex is taking daughter out of country now without consent, there is into a mediation informal document stating that, I haven't signed anything, is this anything I can use or is it just going to be slap on the wrist?

I found myself in same situation during an interim period. So we had interim order in place and my ex decided to take our daughter out of the country for a 4th time without letting me know where, exactly when, when returning etc. the first 3 times she got away with it as I was at that point trying to maintain the best relationship possible so it didn’t go sour and then ultimately hinder mine and my daughters relationship. However, as I got stronger and wiser and I also had representation I refused to consent to my daughter without leaving without them giving me all the info, 3 FaceTimes, so flight details, hotel address and number. I also made them sign a document saying from now on they will inform me of any future holidays before making any bookings. They had to agree and sign to all this before informing border control they now have my consent. I also emailed them saying this is what I have done to prevent embarrassment. I also mentioned that until they start recognising my parental rights then sadly I have to take such actions. Due to their approach on holidays and some other stuff I submitted an urgent application and it got accepted which hugely changed things for me moving forward.

In the interim order it clearly states that foreign travel must be communicated or they are in breach. If you have equal parental rights then she can’t just do this.

However, with their being no C100 application submitted and nothing formalised as such then I’m not sure she is doing anything wrong. She is morally and it’s crap for you but originally not in breach as there is no order in place.

You could also submit a “prohibited steps order” but the chances are if there is no risk of abduction the courts won’t grant it but it might make your ex give you all the details you should have being the dad.

So it depends on which direction you wish to go I suppose. Mediation doesn’t seem to be working if she thinks it’s ok to leave country without your consent.

There is options it just depends which one you want to take. Some will kick the wasps nest more than others

Hope this makes sense

 

[Pj66]

I need some help with my approach to the c100 statement, my current position is that I'd like to see daughter but i do not know specifically what to ask for on the c100.

If I ask for shared care by the age of 2 she could have meltdown and I don't see daughter at all in the interim. I'd like to try and approach my statement in a way where it gives her option to come to agreement at first hearing if possible.

I would like to be able to spend time with daughter 2 times a week for a few hours leading to unsupervised. Giving her the option to be present on occasion if she remains amicable. Considering baby's age she will 100 percent be opposed to unsupervised because she is so attached so I'm offering the option to soften that transition a bit (shows I'm being cooperative to judge)

However I'm trying to word the application in a way that comes across as "if ex deem further allegations necessary or finds reasons to why my contact should be limited, I request the court do X"

I'm just unsure how the court makes progressing schedules at such a young age. Also I am unsure that if we're to ask for anything less than shared care it would render any chances of getting it changed in the future impossible.

I thought hard about what I want, because I'm genuinely still not sure but I'm starting to thing that equal lives with by age of 2 isn't what I would want,

perhaps a 5/14 , 6/14 arrangement but unsure at what age you see because things are going to change, and want to avoid repeated court intervention for changes.

The surname issue is my negotiating card, they will not come to an agreement unless I drop surname SIO, I fear that if I drop it to come to a favourable agreement, I would not be able to re-request it in future if I had to go back to court.

Could people give me some general advise on how to approach this in my statement. As much as how terrible she has been, I fear it may make my life inessesarily difficult if I scare the daylights out of her for 50 50, she would be devastated and daughter needs her mom as girls do.

Any advice on a good way to approach this strategically would help.

- I could ask to reinstate visitation as per agreement in mediation ( potentially at my home or bring my parents or someone to witness)

- apply to court in the background

- inform her off application and explain I hope to come to agreement at first hearing for benefit by consent. Perhaps write a message explaining my position that I'd be happy for her to be present on occasion at first during my time if I seem appropriate.

- arrange mediation in meantime


How do I approach this for best outcome, it seems there is no way forward without court app, but I do fear if it comes across as too much ie 50 50 she may throw all mud under the sun if i go to hard.

 

[Richie1989]

I need some help with my approach to the c100 statement, my current position is that I'd like to see daughter but i do not know specifically what to ask for on the c100.

If I ask for shared care by the age of 2 she could have meltdown and I don't see daughter at all in the interim. I'd like to try and approach my statement in a way where it gives her option to come to agreement at first hearing if possible.

I would like to be able to spend time with daughter 2 times a week for a few hours leading to unsupervised. Giving her the option to be present on occasion if she remains amicable. Considering baby's age she will 100 percent be opposed to unsupervised because she is so attached so I'm offering the option to soften that transition a bit (shows I'm being cooperative to judge)

However I'm trying to word the application in a way that comes across as "if ex deem further allegations necessary or finds reasons to why my contact should be limited, I request the court do X"

I'm just unsure how the court makes progressing schedules at such a young age. Also I am unsure that if we're to ask for anything less than shared care it would render any chances of getting it changed in the future impossible.

I thought hard about what I want, because I'm genuinely still not sure but I'm starting to thing that equal lives with by age of 2 isn't what I would want,

perhaps a 5/14 , 6/14 arrangement but unsure at what age you see because things are going to change, and want to avoid repeated court intervention for changes.

The surname issue is my negotiating card, they will not come to an agreement unless I drop surname SIO, I fear that if I drop it to come to a favourable agreement, I would not be able to re-request it in future if I had to go back to court.

Could people give me some general advise on how to approach this in my statement. As much as how terrible she has been, I fear it may make my life inessesarily difficult if I scare the daylights out of her for 50 50, she would be devastated and daughter needs her mom as girls do.

Any advice on a good way to approach this strategically would help.

- I could ask to reinstate visitation as per agreement in mediation ( potentially at my home or bring my parents or someone to witness)

- apply to court in the background

- inform her off application and explain I hope to come to agreement at first hearing for benefit by consent. Perhaps write a message explaining my position that I'd be happy for her to be present on occasion at first during my time if I seem appropriate.

- arrange mediation in meantime


How do I approach this for best outcome, it seems there is no way forward without court app, but I do fear if it comes across as too much ie 50 50 she may throw all mud under the sun if i go to hard.

I see your point and understand you are trying to love forward with caution.
At this moment in time just the mention of court application might cause problems. Especially when you havnt initiated mediation. I personally think it’s best to chat about mediation and that only for the time being. You do need to attach a form to C100 application once mediation has failed. So until you have failed mediation the C100 isn’t the right step at the moment. Hopefully you won’t need court and she will play ball. As much as the little one needs mummy she also needs daddy just as much. So yes of course tread carefully in your approach but be clear and decisive about what arrangement is best for your daughter. What ever that may be but don’t under joy yourself.
Hopefully your ex will be ok with mediation and you can sort it out there. If not then absolutely think about the C100 then but don’t clog your head with 2 steps i front focus on now and how it can be resolved with mediation which will also save you a fortune which you can spoil the little one with

 

[Pj66]

I see your point and understand you are trying to love forward with caution.
At this moment in time just the mention of court application might cause problems. Especially when you havnt initiated mediation. I personally think it’s best to chat about mediation and that only for the time being. You do need to attach a form to C100 application once mediation has failed. So until you have failed mediation the C100 isn’t the right step at the moment. Hopefully you won’t need court and she will play ball. As much as the little one needs mummy she also needs daddy just as much. So yes of course tread carefully in your approach but be clear and decisive about what arrangement is best for your daughter. What ever that may be but don’t under joy yourself.
Hopefully your ex will be ok with mediation and you can sort it out there. If not then absolutely think about the C100 then but don’t clog your head with 2 steps i front focus on now and how it can be resolved with mediation which will also save you a fortune which you can spoil the little one with

We have already had mediation, she initially refused when i invited citing she wanted to use her own mediator, then whilst agreement was sort of reached she revealed she called the police in between contact being cut and th emediaiton on a random day because "she thought i woudl coem roudn and ask to see daughter" and she " needed it logged". So basically, if ex thinks somethings going to happen, she calls police on a feeling. Whioch is whjy i said no agreemtn was reached due to this until i knew what the next steps are.

 

[Ash]

You could just ask for a progressing order leading to shared care by age two - and not mention whether it's 50/50 or 60/40 etc at this stage. Then set out the proposed progression.

Don't worry about how it would go in the future - that will happen naturally as you and your daughter develop a relationship.

On a positive note, some ex's settle down once an order is in place and they no longer have sole control. They risk losing more time if they don't follow it.

It would really help to have done, or to say you're starting, an early years childcare course.

 

[Pj66]

You could just ask for a progressing order leading to shared care by age two - and not mention whether it's 50/50 or 60/40 etc at this stage. Then set out the proposed progression.

Don't worry about how it would go in the future - that will happen naturally as you and your daughter develop a relationship.

On a positive note, some ex's settle down once an order is in place and they no longer have sole control. They risk losing more time if they don't follow it.

It would really help to have done, or to say you're starting, an early years childcare course.

do i need to put that in the statement or can i save that for the hearing? as well as the fac tthat duaghter is being bottle fed?

I noticed i coudl say a lot of things in my staement such as bacgkorund, home etc, but is it worth putting tha tin or jsut leave it until asked? otherwise statement is too long, isnt there a position statement anyway before first hearing which is different to c100 statement?

 

[Ash]

Yes it's good to save some things for the position statement before the hearing. The application isn't actually a statement - although it's kind of a short one - it's reasons for application. The odd bit of background could help if it's relevant.

 

[Pj66]

if there is no fact finding ordered, do judges make interim contact orders unsupervised? How likely is that?

Also regarding surname for a double barrelled, I would only see any deal with my ex be that I drop the surname application, if I drop it does that mean it can never be revisited? There isn't much info on here regarding SIO for surname changes.

 

[18city]

I doubt very much you will need a fact find. You had a brief relationship so there can't be many, if any allegations to find on. Your ex also proposed a play centre with her there too, this undermines any allegations she could make anyway.

Interim time will depend on any safeguarding issues the ex raises; again in your case I don't see how she can raise any if there has not been and unsupervised time, unless the Cafcass checks brought something up (police and SS). One phone call to the police is unlikely to raise concern particularly as they didn't even speak to you.

I think you are thinking worst case scenario when in reality there is nothing to allege, so nothing to find. You never lived together and you have never been alone with your child.

You will put in your C100 for a CAO and Specific issue of surname. Interim time may or may not be granted at the FHDRA but if there are no safeguarding issues then it more than likely will but possibly supervised as baby is so young. A S7 would be ordered if there were any safeguarding or DA allegations, but as previously stated I'm not sure how there can be. If no S7 you will likely go straight to final hearing to give evidence on final CAO and Surname. At any point throughout this you can agree on one or both things, anything you don't agree on will be decided at final hearing.

I wouldn't delay any more with this, don't overthink and put the C100 in to get the ball rolling. Delaying will cause you more problems as the Court could question why it's taken so long.

Don't think too much about other dads stories, each case is different. In your case there is very little history so very little evidence to consider which should make this move quicker and easier through the system than most, just take it one step at a time. Just remain child focussed and avoid any conflict between parents.

 

[Pj66]

I doubt very much you will need a fact find. You had a brief relationship so there can't be many, if any allegations to find on. Your ex also proposed a play centre with her there too, this undermines any allegations she could make anyway.

Interim time will depend on any safeguarding issues the ex raises; again in your case I don't see how she can raise any if there has not been and unsupervised time, unless the Cafcass checks brought something up (police and SS). One phone call to the police is unlikely to raise concern particularly as they didn't even speak to you.

I think you are thinking worst case scenario when in reality there is nothing to allege, so nothing to find. You never lived together and you have never been alone with your child.

You will put in your C100 for a CAO and Specific issue of surname. Interim time may or may not be granted at the FHDRA but if there are no safeguarding issues then it more than likely will but possibly supervised as baby is so young. A S7 would be ordered if there were any safeguarding or DA allegations, but as previously stated I'm not sure how there can be. If no S7 you will likely go straight to final hearing to give evidence on final CAO and Surname. At any point throughout this you can agree on one or both things, anything you don't agree on will be decided at final hearing.

I wouldn't delay any more with this, don't overthink and put the C100 in to get the ball rolling. Delaying will cause you more problems as the Court could question why it's taken so long.

Don't think too much about other dad's stories, each case is different. In your case there is very little history so very little evidence to consider which should make this move quicker and easier through the system than most, just take it one step at a time. Just remain child focussed and avoid any conflict between parents.

Thank you, when you say supervised in the interim, how would that occur? Mother wants to be present all the time, likely for the rest of child's life tbh, she really is that possessive.

My thoughts were to ask for contact centre instead and flip it on her. That way she can't really pull contact after I submit c100. There's just no way I can be in same room as her now really because she's just going off on one and it's clear they want me gone. I can't trust them at all right now and they have also taken out an injunction on a previous partner before.

I'm really not sure how to explain my absence, the truth is I've been sat here as hard as it is, debating whether it's best I walk away because this will be never end, rather than be involved if mother and their family are going to make things so difficult as it's not fair on daughter. I have a feeling I can't say that to the judge though but it's the truth...

I also didn't want to do contact centre because it's not nice for daughter but strategically, what choice do I have.

 

[18city]

I wouldn't ask for contact centre, I would ask for unsupervised time to be gradually built up, maybe start with a few hours twice a week and increase monthly. It may be that she asks for contact centre then you can negotiate down. You ask for what you want, you might get it you might not, but you need to be going in higher than what you expect to get. Your ex cannot make any DA allegations and then insist on being there, one thing undermines the other. I wouldn't be saying you can't be in the same room as her because that suggests conflict and animosity, just say you want unsupervised, it's a fair request and it's up to her to say why she thinks it's not best for your daughter. It is unlikely they would order time with you supervised by the ex. You could suggest your family supervise in the interim if it is going to be a sticking point. Like I say, ask for what you want, not what you think she will give you and then negotiate down.

You probably won't need to explain your absence to a Judge or Magistrates, it's not been that long. Again, don't overthink this.

I think it's clear PJ that you don't really want to walk away, you are just stuck. You are frightened of the system you are about to enter, but it's the only way to take back some control. Just take it one step at a time, stop thinking about what might or might not happen because the truth is, nobody knows. But one thing is for sure there is a presumption that children are better off with both parents in their lives and that presumption gives your daughter the right to have you in hers whether your ex likes it or not. You will get an order ultimately and try not to think too much of the long term outcome right now or what other dads have gone through or have had awarded because every case is different.

 

[Pj66]

@18city thanks. How would you suggest I approach reinstating contact whilst court application is sent off, my concern right now is her trying to do one over on me in the meantime. I genuinely don't want to be around her or as little as possible due to her behaviour, the only reason I'd go to court is with the intention of parralel parenting which is hard for a newborn at 4 months.

The only idea I had is ask if I can see daughter in contact centre and then get my c100 in just in case she tries to pull contact. It would be really bad if she did it then. I'm concerned she will stop me seeing daughter for months, If I ask for unsupervised now she will say no. Likely she would push back on contact centre too claiming "estrangement".

The cake and eat it too mentality is insane. All the contradictions, there's literally no point in discussing with these types, it just pure control and smoke and mirrors, circular.

 

[18city]

The court will expect you to put any differences aside, yes this can be difficult but I wouldn't apply saying you want parallel parenting as this again suggests conflict between parents. You need to be presenting as child focussed and trying to co-parent even if the long term reality might be parallel parenting . Cafcass will want to hear co-parenting too in their initial safeguarding report, as that is best for the child. Emotions need to be put in a box through the process. It's all about the child not what you or the ex might feel about each other.

I would probably drop a brief message firstly asking how baby is and saying you think about her often, then say you would like to start building up time with your daughter and see what her thoughts are. I wouldn't offer any proposals or suggestions until you get a yes/no reply. If it is a yes reply then ask her what her proposal would be. I wouldn't be suggesting anything until she shows her cards. If it's a no then you have proof she is not willing for your daughter to spend time with you. The less you say the better until you know how she feels. Others may have different views but this is what I would probably do. Keep it brief and show no emotion.

 

[Pj66]

thank guys, i have a question about specific issue orders and the surname, can a SIO be filed after a CAO has been made and then merged with the exisitng CAO proceedings if required? im debating whether i want to apply for this at the same time. I am not sure of the legal aspects of whether a withdrawal of my SIO for the surname in any agreement would mean i could no longer apply for the surname in future so im unsure whether to inlcude it unless absolutley neccessary.