Communication breakdown

[Pj66]

Hey, it seems like communication is breaking down with the mother of my newborn child. I attended my visits recently and when asking about arrangements to see my baby girl, I was told that 2times a week for a couple of hours was reasonable as "we are not together and I have my own life to live"

My most recent visit her mother was there and all was going cordial, until I asked about whether my daughter was registered at the doctors and if they had my details too, I was told they didn't need them. I said I would liek them to have them for the future if I would be next if Kin.

Whilst I do understand I don't really have any day in day to day decisions, I feel like these requests are reasonable and it's become apparent that they want me to have very little involvement in anything or any parenting at all, on the basis that we are not together. For those who don't know I was completely frozen out during the entire pregnancy, when asked why my fishnets could have my surname to it all come round to "we are not together"

I asked about arrangements again and my exes mom was adamant that 2x a week for an hour or so was reasonable and she had taken advice and said thst was "the law", I then asked about in the future spending some time unsupervised and was told "not until at least age 4 as that's the law" at this point I just said we are in disagreement and that I don't feel it was anywhere near enough time to bond with my daughter. I was told that if we couldn't agree there would be mediation and the grandmother said "the mediator would decide"

I was accused a coming across as aggressive however I reiterated that i have bent over backwards to be accommodating and friendly and that was frozen out of the completely and I am worried that I wouldnt be able to see my daughter. There were other things said such as when the mother got upset on a previous visit, because I meantion the whole pregnancy being frozen out made me feel she didn't care if I was invovled or not. Also during the conversation earlier I asked if I could be informed when she messages my parents to arrange visits so I'm kept in the loop.

I said to them both I think it's best I leave so I left calmly and drove back home as it was clear it wasn't getting anywhere. Communication seems impossible right now and that nothing I ask is being considered or they are thinking about my daughter. All the responses I seem to get, even when discussing the surname is that we are not together and she is the primary carer. And that's about as much as they have against me.

I just would like some thoughts on how to proceed as I feel I'm am being treated as a second class citizen with no real care or want for involvement with my daughter. This is obviously very hard and I've been left feeling really upset when I got home as I'm not sure what to do. I have stepped up against all odds and been patient at every stage.

I did not think things would escalate so quickly but I'm in a position of damned if I do damned if I don't. If I don't ask to discuss arrangements I am at their whim, and if I do discuss something and ask for something reasonable they are way of the mark for what I feel to be fair. I'm being offered nothing and doing my best to be involved and reasonable as much as possible.

 

[18city]

Hi PJ

If you know which GP your daughter is registered with you can ask them directly to take your details. You have PR now so you do not need your ex's permission to access any GP records. I wouldn't discuss this again with them, just go to the surgery with the birth certificate and ask to be put on your daughters records.

For now I would be taking the two hours twice a week whilst the baby is so young. A court is unlikely to give you more at such a tender age and you don't want to risk not seeing her for months. Them saying it's law to not be allowed unsupervised until baby is 4 is nonsense but I think it's too soon to be requesting more right now. You need to play the long game and jump through all the hoops. I know it's bloody crazy, no doubt the grandmother gets unsupervised time but sadly that is how it goes for us dads. I would avoid any discussions about the future especially if the grandmother is there. Beware if they are accusing you of being aggressive cos that can very quickly end up down the non mol route and you really don't want that. If you need to communicate over arrangements it's best to do it in text so it is all recorded. You need to refrain from having any direct discussions, maybe you should suggest a parenting app. I use Appclose, it's free and it does the job.

 

[Pj66]

So 2 hours twice a week is really what a court would order, seriously? I thought short burst every other day is what was best for an infant. So 4 hours a week.

I made it clear to the mother during the pregnancy I wasn't looking for overnights or unsupervised at such a young age it would like to work up to it someday, to which I got the same response then. I've jumped through so many hoops, been respect full kind and reasonable at all stages, I casually said in a conversation that I wa a disappointed being frozen out and that it felt like she didn't care if one's involved, and it seemed saying that triggered the exact response of here doubling doubt and stopping all updates further proving my point.

She then went directly to my parents to arenage for them to spend time with my daughter but not me. Almost like a deliberate stub, there's playing the long game but then on the other side there's also taking the piss surely.

I've read in so many other places, including over in mumsnet where the fathers are abusive horrible people that a court order salts more than 4 hours a week.

I think I need legal advice here.

 

[Ash]

Hi PJ. Your daughter is still very young - it's very early days. I would heed what 18city says - the biggest danger right now is your ex accusing you of being aggressive. That can quickly lead to an ex parte non molestation order and then you would struggle for a long time to get to see your daughter or get any kind of court order. I wouldn't have any face to face discussions or disagreements with them any more. Keep everything under your hat and let it out on here.

Discussion with them isn't going to make them co-operate and it slightly concerns me that the Grandmother is talking about the law. They are no doubt aware you could apply to court and they are getting lawyered up themselves possibly. Which is why it's crucial you don't get accused of being aggressive and any discussions take place either by text or email and not while you're there to see your daughter. You could still be accused of being aggressive even with text etc, so bit your tongue and be brief and polite in any communications. Check on here first maybe.

So yes that is likely all the court would order at this age - 2 hours twice a week. But they may order it on your own not at your ex's home. I wouldn't start using terms like supervised or unsupervised because that sounds like you are not safe and isn't really appropriate for the situation.

If I was you I would bend over backwards to get on with them, be nice to them, bring things for the baby and accept two hours twice a week. If you only get one hour twice a week and it has to be at her house, then think about court at some point.

The difficult thing is - if you apply to court then your ex will probably stop you seeing your daughter and that could be a long time. You need to get more time under your belt really before you think about going to court. The grandmother is talking rubbish about waiting till child is four.

And it does sound like at some point you might need to apply to court, but your child is only a few weeks old. Take what they offer in the meantime, don't get into arguments, however upset you feel. Go along with it for now and keep them onside and then at some point you could ask to take the baby out in the pushchair once a week as well or something, and build up to things gradually.

Yes they see the child as theirs and you as a minimal parent. It's called sexism.

 

[Pj66]

Thanks for all the advice, I really disappointed tk hear that 2x a week for 2 hours is what a court would order, where I've read in other places that it says every other day for 2 hours seems to be best for a infant due to binding so surely it's not in child's best interests? This 2x for 2 hours is what would be granted to criminals is it not? I just don't understand and now I'm really worried as if the mother mom has taken legal and that's what they told her to.

So I just don't get it why my contact went for 3-4 hours every other day to 2x a week overnight. It's bs. It's basically when I expressed disappointment on being frozen out and how it felt like she didn't care if I was involved and for my daughter, and her response was to backtrack on surname, and then offer 2x a week, further showing she doesn't care.

So now it's basically, they are offering 2x a week 2 hours in exchange for me not being stopped from seeing my daughter?

Whereas I go court, don't see my daughter, potentially get the surname and more than 2x a week for 2 hours, but at expense, and revealing all the bs that's already happened, I think the court will see form the offset that I've bent over backwards, and I was even pressured into walking away by her pretending I wasn't the father, surely that has some weight to it all?

 

[Pj66]

And also if there are asking 2x a week for 2 hours and I can get the same on my own, plus the surname it's just ridiculous. I've been thinking of a messeg to deescalate the situation but it isn't brief.

 

[Resolute]

Hi PJ,

Reading the above it seems you walked out on time with your baby because of bickering with your ex and her mum. If they can get you wound up to this degree you are not even getting the time they are offering. I do not think it is a good idea to mix discussion of arrangements with the time you have to form a relationship with the child. In fact, I'd be inclined to keep that sort of stuff in writing and to be utterly insincere during your encounters with your ex. What you are feeling about her and her mum can be totally buried to make things work. Putting it into perspective, you are only really hoping for one more session with the baby a week. This doesn't warrant a stand off. If you succeed you get 50% more, if you piss her off you get zero.

Have you had the baby sleep in your arms? Have you fed the baby? Have you put the baby down for a nap or for the night? Are you changing nappies? Do you have a sling/papoose you can use to hug and rock the baby when they are crying? Have you taken the baby for a walk around the block? I'd be trying to get all of this sort of stuff in place. Establishing yourself can be done in lots of tiny ways.

If court becomes necessary, an established bond and parenting skills might mean more than a surname and GP records.

 

[Ash]

So I just don't get it why my contact went for 3-4 hours every other day to 2x a week overnight.

I think maybe she felt rejected when you said you were only interested in the baby. I don't mean rejected in a relationship sense, but in the sense that she felt you didn't respect her as the Mother of the child. I may be wrong but she may have misunderstood your comment and felt anxious you wanted to take the child away from her at some point. Emotions and anxieties are very high on all sides in these situations and misunderstandings happen easily. So to appease her anxiety she is limiting the amount of time perhaps out of fear the baby may prefer you to her.

This has led to you feeling upset and angry and you expressing upset and frustration has led to them feeling you are trouble so it can become self defeating to express what you're thinking and feeling to them.

I replied on your other thread. Maybe try and adopt an up beat attitude - even if it's fake and acting - to jolly them along a bit and say - I'd love to carry on as before and sorry for being a pratt.

 

[Pj66]

Hi @Ash this is why in the messeg I drafted I mentioned about clarifying on that and to diffuse that situation

@Resolute i haven't took part in any feeding but been shown things. Considering the grandmother and the mother have said before that no overnights or unsupervised for years to come, it's highly unlikely they are going to allow alone time with the baby. And yes one more day I may be able to compromise on if it was a longer visit perhaps. Also if it's a standoff of whether they fear court or not, they are also very aware of my position on the surname, they risk having mine added if they really don't want that, also al my written correspondence is flawlessly supportive so far however not the same on her side, I have a few pieces evidence that shows she was trying to convince other people I wasn't the father to get me to walk away during the pregnancy, and that she wasn't going to put me on BC just to be difficult etc. nothing from my end in text.

Also it important to note about the non mol. The mother was going on and on about she wanted to get things done and apply for passport etc. these are the kind of people that take long expensive holidays throughout the year. There is no passport for my daughter yet, if they non mol me they can't get a passport and risk delaying that as I'm on BC. Unless they do something sketchy or force a court order. I don't think it's at that stage yet personally.

 

[Ash]

I'd deal with one thing at a time. They have convinced themselves that legally you can only have two hours twice a week. Before that they were allowing more time but now they are miffed so only want to do the minimum required.

It is very difficult. If your child was a bit older - maybe 9 months, I would say apply to court to get things sorted out so there is no messing about. But at any time, your ex may decide to withold the child if you apply to court. Now from the sound of it I don't think that would happen if the child was older as she may be concerned about looking bad to the court or it counting against her. But these early few months are crucial to being able to say you've built up a bond and had regular time and your ex may be more likely to stop things at this stage.

I think the best thing is not send anything to them right now but just go along with whatever they will allow. Be pleasant and try and build some bridges.

 

[Resolute]

@Resolute i haven't took part in any feeding but been shown things.

It sounds like she is not breast feeding then. That can be a 'reason' to stop baby being away with you, so positive. If you have been shown, it is only a small step to taking part. Offering to help might be your strongest move. Shall I put the steriliser on? Do you need me to pick up any formula or anything on the way? Your ex holds all the keys unfortunately, it is worth using whatever move you can to make incremental progress.

Considering the grandmother and the mother have said before that no overnights or unsupervised for years to come, it's highly unlikely they are going to allow alone time with the baby.

Overnights right now would be a massive decision. If you are there regularly and generally amenable. It could easily get to the point where you take the baby into the garden for some fresh air. Take care of things while your ex has a long hot bath or a nap. They are letting you in. It is much easier to work your way up from there than from a position where you are at loggerheads and threatening legal action.

To be frank, I think you have more reason to fear court than they do. You are in the weaker position. You could make the best of what is on offer and remove any reason for things not to progress. Having an infant is tiring and her mum will not always be there to share the load. You can be there when a solution is needed.

 

[Pj66]

Appreciate all your points. The grandmother is extremely overbearing and it seems she's the one pulling the strings.

When I asked at the registration if still good to see my daughter on the Friday, the grandmother was there throughout all that and it was as if the grandmother turned to the mother and nodded as if to tell her to say yes.

So when the grandmother is saying 2x a week as that's the law and no unsupervised till 4, it seems she has taken legal advice and the lawyer has told her what may be a typical range, but the grandmother is offering the minimum of that and trying to claim it's the law.

I wondered why the daughter was the way she was and it's seems very clear now that the grandmother is the one in control in the family, her dad actually comes across as pretty chill, shook my hand and said congratulations and everything and how excited he was etc.

It seems that if the mother is upset she is taking advice front he grandmother and even if she doesn't agree what the grandmother says she is agreeing with as she is very babied if that makes sense.

How do you deal with an overbearing and controlling grandmother in these situations? When I asked to mother about arrangements (probably not the best idea in person so lesson learned) the grandmother stepped in and laid it out, but I wasn't asking her. My ex seems to get flustered and struggles to communicate at all and it's all very infantile now I look at it all, so it's the grandmother pulling the strings but she's really controlling.

 

[Ash]

Butter her up maybe? Compliment her when you're there (not too obviously), make a fun joke about how great it is to have such an experienced person in babies around and how reassuring it is etc.

 

[Pj66]

Butter her up maybe?

Tried that, been very nice to her in general only after everything has blown up she's gone full protection mode, feel like it's all fd up now.

 

[Pj66]

It sounds like she is not breast feeding then. That can be a 'reason' to stop baby being away with you, so positive. If you have been shown, it is only a small step to taking part. Offering to help might be your strongest move. Shall I put the steriliser on? Do you need me to pick up any formula or anything on the way? Your ex holds all the keys unfortunately, it is worth using whatever move you can to make incremental progress.



Overnights right now would be a massive decision. If you are there regularly and generally amenable. It could easily get to the point where you take the baby into the garden for some fresh air. Take care of things while your ex has a long hot bath or a nap. They are letting you in. It is much easier to work your way up from there than from a position where you are at loggerheads and threatening legal action.

To be frank, I think you have more reason to fear court than they do. You are in the weaker position. You could make the best of what is on offer and remove any reason for things not to progress. Having an infant is tiring and her mum will not always be there to share the load. You can be there when a solution is needed.

I do offer and ask if rush here needs anything in my way and for things at first but then when I asked after that I just get minimal responses like "no all good"

I'm not looking for overnight, or even unsupervised days until down the line I always made that clear


Think you are under estimating the grandmothers overbearing ness, grandchild is extension of herself and will step in forever.

Also if mediation happens who is actually in the mediation? Will the overbearing grandmother be in there too?

 

[Ash]

I think the only thing you can do right now, is go along with whatever they offer. Be pleasant and give it some time and maybe they will come round and warm to you again.

 

[Pj66]

I think the only thing you can do right now, is go along with whatever they offer. Be pleasant and give it some time and maybe they will come round and warm to you again.

Ok well there has been no contact since, there were arrangements she made to go take daughter to my parents on Wednesday so don't know whats happening with that. I have an appointment with a solicitor tommorow afternoon so wonder what they may say.

 

[Ash]

That's not on - taking her to see your parents but not you. What should be happening is adequate time with you and your parents seeing your daughter on your time. It is very early days with a young baby but that is crossing boundaries.

 

[Pj66]

That's not on - taking her to see your parents but not you. What should be happening is adequate time with you and your parents seeing your daughter on your time. It is very early days with a young baby but that is crossing boundaries.

Yes and when I said to her in the visit before that I would like to know before hand thst arrangements were going on, the next day she messaged my parents saying sorry to bother then but I said that any arrangements shouldn't be made without my consent and apologised if she overstepped the mark.

Also On the same day I went round with my parents to meet daughter for the first time15 minutes after the visit I got a text saying about the backtrack on the surname, and then my mom got a message to arrange for her to take daughter to spend time with them. Mom got updates over the next few days and I didn't. My parents love half hour away and me and mum round the corner.

But apparently me asking to be added as the father on her medical triggered them and it seems I've overstepped boundaries....

 

[Pj66]

Hi guys, so I had some advice today and it's seems it aligns with what has been said and a message ash drafted to me, saying there may have been misunderstandings but would like for us to work together for my daughter to spend time and then suggest some arrangements. The solicitors advice align with much I see in here however, they had told me that every other day for a few hours was not unreasonable to suggest at all due to my personal circumstances.

Shortly after the meeting I had planned to draft the message, however my mom got a message from the ex cancelling the visit, claiming that the final straw has been crossed due to "bad behaviour " and that "we will have to go through mediation" which I assume I don't get to see my daughter now. They claim I had expressed I had said I "wouldn't agree with the mediator". (This is not true, I mentioned that the mediator wouldn't decide for us but would help facilitate for me and the mother to come to an agreement) it wasn't a nasty message of anything as she felt it then appropriate to update my mom on my daughters daily activity shortly after.

Now this changes things and first thing I thought was that they either want to be in control of mediation or it's just a hoop to get me to go away if make it difficult. It could be good or a bad thing doing so.

I'm always alert to any sneaky tricks as my parents agree they want me gone or with little to no invovlment at all, from the offset.

If anyone could provide some insight on what might happen or how to move forward regarding allegations and the message they sent I'd appreciate it. Under the impression they have legal now and that was sent shortly after.