C100 and false allegations

[Ash]

Point 4 - what happens at first hearing. That is why you need some free legal advice now. Because they know more about C2. But it could vary - see above. It could just be a short formality to say - supervised contact until section 7 complete and listed for another hearing. Or if your ex has a solicitor - which she is likely to do - she could be pushing for no contact at all and a fact finding hearing. A Judge tends to give way to the lawyer who asks for things. Which is why I think you could do with someone representing you at that first hearing. It's usually not very long. You can also submit a position statement for the first hearing - which is a way of getting your own view across on the current situation.

A position statement is basically a note to the Judge before the hearing (and you have to give a copy to the other side). Which updates "the position". Ie anything that has happened since you applied that has changed or anything that's happened in the run up to the hearing. And to ask for what you want in an interim order, specifically - and a bit more. It is just a side and a half of double spaced typing - quite a short thing really. But it gives you a voice. It's usually recommended to always submit a position statement for every hearing. If you use a solicitor they don't bother. Which is why I prefer to submit my own position statement and use a direct access barrister (all the barrister does is represent you at the hearing and you send them all the info you have in advance - eg your application, the cafcass letter and your position statement). They usually do a fixed fee.

Is it a face to face hearing or a virtual one? When things were face to face you had chance to meet the barrister an hour before the hearing to break the ice a bit and have a chat and them go through what you might try and achieve and you tell them what to try for etc. But they will usually do a phone consultation as part of the fixed fee, as well as representing you at the hearing - which can help if it's a virtual hearing where you don't get to meet them in person first. I am not sure how they work with virtual hearings - the barrister may have a video call with you in advance of the hearing starting or something. I find barristers much more professional and trustworthy. Because they are not trying to run up extra bills. My experiences with solicitors I learned the hard way. I did find a good one eventually - but even she wasn't always good. After that I went direct to a barrister and did the paperwork myself. Not much paperwork really.

Try not to get too stressed - easy said I know - it's a big shock - but think of this as jumping through hoops to get to an end result. That is what it is - jumping through hoops. Letting the processes go ahead - and then get to a final hearing and get your court order to have your kids with you regularly.

There may be some positive things come out of the section 7 as well. It's your chance to speak to Cafcass. They will probably speak to the kids at school without the ex there (how old are they?). They get them to fill out sheets and draw pictures as well as talking to them carefully. They may also look into your ex's medical history. The checks they usually do are to get police records and check social services records.

What I find frustrating is you can't submit evidence at a first hearing. Because I got a copy of my own police record and my partner's and wanted to say - here it is - have a look! Nothing on it.

Just to be clear - who applied to court - you or your ex? I'm assuming you applied on a C100 for child arrangements - is that right? She would then have had to respond by sending back a C7 (which the court should have sent you a copy of). On that she could ask for an order herself or just disagree with what you've asked for. Have you seen the C7 and did she make allegations on that? I'm assuming not as you only found out from Cafcass. With the C7 your ex could also submit a C1A (the form for allegations of abuse etc). And you should have been sent a copy of that if she did.

It sounds like she didn't and has only made these allegations up when she spoke to Cafcass. So they will be wise to the fact that she didn't mention any abuse until they spoke to her. If you haven't had a copy of the C7 then email the court and tell them and ask them to forward it to you.

 

[Ash]

We can help with wording for a position statement.

 

[Ash]

Also they want to speak to my new partner as she has kids, she is a really good woman I have lads, she is really there for me I think, the ex will have to dig deep, she did ask me if my ex had any mental health issues, I did say yes to that suffers really bad from anxiety I mean really bad so I think she has just fuelled her worst fears.... .

Also cafcass said why did you let him have access again if he is so bad, she replied her solicitor advised her to, even though she does not have a solicitor, one thing I would ask is, can she still get represented by a solicitor if she is not working and claims domestic abuse even though we have nearly been split up a year? and I have been seeing my child in that time? what do you reckon?

Just going back a bit. Did they speak to your partner on the phone or do they mean they want to speak to her when they do a section 7 (the latter would be standard if you're a couple and your partner a step parent).

Also you mentioned you've been seeing your child during the last year. So in that case you should be asking for the same in an interim order. Has your ex stopped you seeing the children? How much time were you getting. You should get back what you had before as an interim order.

If your ex has been allowing you to see the children until now then yes her allegations will probably be dismissed - because if she had any concerns she would then be seen as failing to protect the children - so it will be taken that she didn't have any concerns!

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

Just going back a bit. Did they speak to your partner on the phone or do they mean they want to speak to her when they do a section 7 (the latter would be standard if you're a couple and your partner a step parent).

Also you mentioned you've been seeing your child during the last year. So in that case you should be asking for the same in an interim order. Has your ex stopped you seeing the children? How much time were you getting. You should get back what you had before as an interim order.

If your ex has been allowing you to see the children until now then yes her allegations will probably be dismissed - because if she had any concerns she would then be seen as failing to protect the children - so it will be taken that she didn't have any concerns!

bear in mind we have never lived together me and the Ex, So my child is 4 now, Ex has over the last 4 years contacted Social services twice to tell them that in her opinion I have been heavy handed with my child, never followed it up, as she cut access they never investigated it, first lockdown, she had me arrested and tried to have me done for assault, nothing was done there no case to answer, no charges brought. May last year ex cut contact for 5 nearly 6 months, (this was when she spoke to social services) - (I put in the C100) when she found out in this time I had got another woman and did not want a life with her anymore, she promptly said I can have immediate access and I can see my child, (suggested we get back together) as tough a decision as that was I stuck to my guns and left her too it. So I have pretty much had access every weekend (most weekends) since October last year, Pre Christmas I had 4 days up until Christmas eve (good times that was) fast fwd: to me messaging the courts a few weeks ago to see how we are getting along (progress) we get a court date, Cafcass make the call to the ex, ex says she has concerns of child becoming highly sexualised, Cafcass ask if she has alerted social services, ex said no but she will do, asked if she has any other concerns she mentions the above. (social services) and emotional abuse etc etc.... I told Cafcass that in 4 years I have invited her to mediation twice, she has refused on two occasions.

Court date for the first hearing in in a few weeks, don't know if that is Virtual or in Person, I have been advised by Cafcass to wait for their report mid next week sometime, from there I would be wise to fill in an interim order C2 to see my Child and keep access going, they asked me if I had a solicitor, First hearing no doubt they will ask for s7 and do a full investigation, at this point I have no idea what will happen? does she have a solicitor? and bear in mind I think you can't just say you have been abused these days you do have to have proof to some degree, what if she does not show? I am thinking from the first hearing I would still like to have some kind of interim contact hence the C2 goes in.

can I find out if she has representation?
what happens if she is a no show at the first hearing?
can someone help me with a position statement?
any links for me to look for baristers? (I guess I will have to move quick) as I see it I have about 12 days :-(

 

[Ash]

Hi. Did you put some of that info above in your initial application? If not then that's what needs to go in your position statement as a back history. Things like - we met on x date, but have never lived together. Child was born on x date and we co-parented amicably for x months/years. Mrs Ex wished us to get back together, but I did not wish to. Mrs Ex made allegations to social services who didn't investigate. Mrs Ex then reported me to the Police who found no issues and closed the case. Since x date, when I met my new Partner Mrs Ex made further allegations to social services and wanted me to get back together with her, which I declined. Mrs Ex then witheld child again until I submitted my C100 when she agreed to resume child coming to me. Child has been spending x nights a week with me since x date and is currently doing so. My feeling is that Mrs Ex doesn't accept me having a new partner and I ask that the court make an interim order for my child's time to continue as currently, while matters are resolved and until proceedings are completed.

That kind of thing. Of course you can put in the C2 as well meanwhile. I am still confused as to why it's needed, when you submitted a C100 asking for time, but if you didn't specifically ask for an interim order in the C100 then the C2 will do this. Hence suggesting some free legal advice to ascertain why the C2 is needed if you've already put in a C100. Just so we all understand!

What did you ask for in your C100? Same time as now, or more? The position statement is an opportunity to be more specific about exactly what you want in an order - not just the times - eg a defined order (dates and times specified) and which holiday weeks etc.

From what you've said, they may not do a Section 7 report - they may just dismiss her allegations especially as she has been allowing time recently. It sounds like she had you arrested to make sure it showed up on a criminal record. But it should also show that there was no case to answer. So they might do a section 7 - you'll need to wait and see what the Cafcass letter says. Either way you should hopefully get an interim order for staying over time rather than supervised in a contact centre. The position statement is an opportunity to put that argument across.

can I find out if she has representation?
what happens if she is a no show at the first hearing?
can someone help me with a position statement?
any links for me to look for baristers? (I guess I will have to move quick) as I see it I have about 12 days :-(

1. You won't know if she has legal representation until the day of the hearing really. Even if she tells you she is or isn't, you can't rely on that, and it could change. Best to assume she will have.

2. This is partly why you do the position statement. Because sometimes people do a no show to get the hearing postponed. However a Judge wouldn't be impressed by a no show. What they would probably do is make an order for her to attend the next hearing so she has to or is in contempt of court - they may still make the interim order. I wouldn't worry too much about that at this stage.

3. Yes - happy for you to PM me on that. Once you've done it a couple of times it's quite easy - it's not like a formal final statement. Main thing is being set out right, well worded, and easy to read so they get what you're saying.

4. What region are you in? The forum doesn't recommend solicitors and barristers, but individual members can do. If you start a thread asking for recommendations, and asking for people to PM you with some you may get other members recommending (this is what I did). The bonus these days is, region isn't always an issue because most hearings are remote hearings at the moment so it doesn't matter where the Barrister is based.

 

[Ash]

She will need to be more specific than "sexualised behaviour". She has made this up because the previous reports didn't get her anywhere. Do you think her anxiety on this is genuine? Or a strategy. If it's genuine then she doesn't trust you. If she doesn't trust you, why did she want to get back together with you? I personally think she is probably just trying to scare your partner away. And I think you can undermine her arguments with the history. The history is important. Courts are used to Mothers stopping children coming when a Dad gets a new partner.

I know the anxiety, every time you're accused of anything and every time child falls over and bangs their knee in case it leaves a bruise. That does wear off over time and when you have an order.

A question - did you get a closure report from either Social Services or Police - that can be used as evidence if needed. But there may not be one if social services didn't investigate. Or it may not be necessary.

As to her having to prove things - this is where the court has to decide whether they believe her or whether they have to cover themselves and do further investigations.

Allegations of sexual abuse are a vicious nuclear attempt to keep control. But at least it sounds like she only "vaguely" made them - some are much worse.

C2 form is here. The info says it's for making an application during existing proceedings (which is why I was confused as usually it's the other side that submits a C2 to ask for a different order). But as it says it's also for requesting an order then that must be why they've asked you to submit it - to formally ask for the interim order. And if Cafcass say they have recommended you do that, in their letter, then that is basically saying that they are agreeing to you having an interim order - which is good.

Make an application in existing court proceedings relating to children: Form C2

Ask for permission to start proceedings, or to request an order or directions in existing proceedings, or to ask to join or leave proceedings.

www.gov.uk

 

[Ash]

Just to add - a lot of the time when they do a Section 7 it is really to cover themselves - in case they have missed something - because sadly there are parents who abuse their kids (and the odd murder every year). So they are being cautious - it's no reflection on you. But they are also savvy enough to spot when someone is trying it on. Hope they decide not to so things progress quicker.

But yes when it comes to a final hearing and both sides have to produce evidence to back up what they say in their statement - she won't have any. And her statement can be undermined. If a section 7 has been done and they say - no issues - progress to final hearing - there is no point her continuing to state the allegations then anyway because the court have already decided there are no welfare issues. But if her statement is undermined, you get the order you applied for and win the case.

What usually happens in a statement for final hearing is - hers will be full of mud slinging with no evidence, and yours should be measured and logical with good arguments and evidence to back up what you say. Evidence can be anything - an email, a text or a report. You can build up some evidence.

Do you have contact with your child's GP? You should be able to write to them, confidentially, and ask for any recent diagnoses in the past couple of years. My ex changed child's Doctor without telling me so I didn't know where he was registered any more. My own GP surgery said - there are only 3 or 4 in her catchment area - write to all of them and see which one replies. So I did. And one replied.

There's a template letter in the resources section above, for an initial introductory letter to child's GP asking to be on their medical records as a contact, and asking for any medical problems over the last year or two. Confidentially. Best not to ask for "full" medical records as legally a GP can decline that, but they can't decline general requests for information - eg any recent diagnoses or medical issues.

I expected to have to go in and discuss with the GP but they just wrote back and in my case that letter was very useful evidence for my final hearing. So if the GP writes back saying - nothing in the last two years apart from a bout of hand foot and mouth disease or something - then that is evidence that your ex has not consulted the Doctor about suspected sexual abuse! That would be very much in your favour.

Likewise with the school. Keep up a pleasant rapport with them. If you're not currently getting school reports and newsletters etc then again send an initial introductory letter (template above again) - and as part of that you could ask them if child is doing fine and are there any issues, and say that you would be grateful for any support the school can give child who may be under stress currently due to you having applied to parents currently in disagreement about child arrangements and court proceedings are currently taking place.

Again mark it confidential.

If they reply to your letter or email (which they should) they should confirm that child is doing fine in school etc. Again that is your evidence. School have not had a problem with child's behaviour or felt it necessary to contact social services with any concerns.

Is your child at school if 4? Or due to start this September? If not - is he/she in nursery? That would be a different careful way of getting information - nursery is less bound by protocols than schools.

Most people find things settle down after a final hearing and an order made. Although some exes can still be difficult but there are strategies to cope with that. One thing Cafcass and courts don't like though, is clear animosity between parents.

Bizarrely, even though she has done these awful things, you are still expected to show that you are the one that is willing to be amicable and co parent amicably in child's best interests. That is all they are looking for really. Keep that in mind. Because that shows that only one of the parents is hostile - not both of them. If it's both of them being hostile to each other they tend to favour the Mother, to avoid conflict for the child.

So in any communications, texts, or emails, make sure they are always brief, polite, formal and friendly tone - as if writing to a business colleague - so you're whiter than white. Although appreciate it's no contact at all at the moment to protect yourself. But that's for the future.

Because anything in writing can be used against you. And also work for you. If you've had some vitriolic texts and emails, threats etc and hostility - those can be good evidence. She can also use things like that as evidence against you and say you're aggressive or something (so hope she doesn't have any! Or doesn't think to use them).

Letter Template for Child's Doctor

Attached is a template for a Letter for child's Doctor, asking to be added to medical notes for contact, for information and for medical records. Click on the download button top right. You can copy and paste it into word to edit it. A Doctor...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

School letter Template

Letter template to write to your child's/childrens school introducing yourself, asking for information and to be kept updated. You can copy and paste this to edit it. Your name Your Address 1 Your Address 2 Your Address 4 Your email address...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

 

[Ash]

The C2 looks like a mini version of the C100 with a box to say why you're making this application. The wording here is quite important - and may mean you don't need as much detail in a position statement. PM if you want help with the wording, here as it's an opportunity to mention some of the history. But the main thing is to mention that Cafcass recommended you to submit a C2 for an interim order and that child is currently seeing you x days a week (are you still getting that or has she stopped it)?

 

[Ash]

Ok so it's starting to make sense now. Your first hearing is one of these new gatekeeping hearings - which you don't attend. Cafcass and the Judge/Gatekeeper decide what next - eg if there'll be a section 7 and the first hearing proper will take place at a later date . And they've suggested you submit a C2 to get an earlier hearing from an interim order - because no opportunity to do that at the gatekeeping hearing as you're not involved.

The difference between what time you're getting now and an interim order is - it's been ordered - so it means your ex will have to keep to it until proceedings are completed. Whereas if it's left informal as now, she might suddenly decide to stop the children seeing you or something.

 

[Ash]

So you don't need a position statement yet and you need to submit a C2 to ask for an interim order. You'll need to ask a lawyer who is up to date with the new processes re gatekeeping hearings about this - or just do what Cafcass advised. We can help with wording for the C2. Just wondering if you should wait till you get the Cafcass letter first or not before doing it.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

Ok so it's starting to make sense now. Your first hearing is one of these new gatekeeping hearings - which you don't attend. Cafcass and the Judge/Gatekeeper decide what next - eg if there'll be a section 7 and the first hearing proper will take place at a later date . And they've suggested you submit a C2 to get an earlier hearing from an interim order - because no opportunity to do that at the gatekeeping hearing as you're not involved.

The difference between what time you're getting now and an interim order is - it's been ordered - so it means your ex will have to keep to it until proceedings are completed. Whereas if it's left informal as now, she might suddenly decide to stop the children seeing you or something.

She has done I have no contact

 

[Ash]

Ah ok. I'm sorry I must have misunderstood what you wrote earlier. I knew she stopped it but thought she started it again when you applied to court.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

No basically now the court has acknowledged and gathered momentum, she has played the cards and cut access, just awaiting the cafcass report, then ai will try at attempting a C2 interim access request until the investigations have completed

 

[Ash]

Oh sorry to hear that. So when did she do that, recently? Wondering if she's had some legal advice and they've told her that it undermines her claims if she's still allowing the kids to come. So when was the last time they came to you? You'll need dates etc for the C2 and to make the argument that she only stopped them seeing you after xyz happened. Was it after the Cafcass interviews?

Unfortunately, solicitors for exes only act for their clients and don't think about child's interests - not all of them, but.... And they may just believe what she's told them as well.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

so here is my outcome so far from Cafcass, anyone got any help here with anything similar or advice,

advice to the Court:
• The Court should list the matter for a FHDRA to consider Fact Finding.
• The Court might benefit from directing Ex to complete a statement prior to the hearing outlining her allegations of domestic abuse.
• Once the issue of Fact Finding has been determined the Court should direct Cafcass to complete an s.7 report to explore the safeguarding concerns and determined the long-term contact arrangements for Child.
• Cafcass are unable to recommend any contact between Child and her father at this time. #wankers!
• The Court may benefit from directing both parties to obtain a report from their GP regarding any mental health concerns.
• Cafcass to complete an Updated Safeguarding Letter once information further information from Children’s Service is obtained.

So any help here would be useful, anyone a bit further on? Help Please !!!!

 

[Ash]

These are Cafcass recommendations to the court - some of which may be followed and some not. I think you said there was going to be a gatekeeping hearing. That would be a Judge meeting with Cafcass to decide what next. I would hope they would choose from those recommended options - because I can't see the point in an FHDRA if they're going to order a fact find - it should be one or the other. And if they do a fact find I can't see why they should then do a Section 7. It sounds to me like they are covering all options and let the Judge decide.

So after that gatekeeping hearing, some court papers should be issued tellign you what happens next. It may ask you both to complete questionnaires before the next hearing. It may ask you both to provide GP letters or something. It may just be an FHDRA and the Judge then decide.

RJ25 was in a similar situation recently. He submitted a position statement at his first hearign (FHDRA) asking for supervised contact and Judge said - cut to the chase and go straight to a fact find (I seem to remember). Your situation might be different because you were seeing the kids until recently.

I'm not sure why Cafcass suggested you submit a C2 for an interim order and then said they can't recommend any contact at this stage. Basically they want to do investigations.

Hang in there. One thing at a time.

 

[RJ25]

so here is my outcome so far from Cafcass, anyone got any help here with anything similar or advice,

advice to the Court:
• The Court should list the matter for a FHDRA to consider Fact Finding.
• The Court might benefit from directing Ex to complete a statement prior to the hearing outlining her allegations of domestic abuse.
• Once the issue of Fact Finding has been determined the Court should direct Cafcass to complete an s.7 report to explore the safeguarding concerns and determined the long-term contact arrangements for Child.
• Cafcass are unable to recommend any contact between Child and her father at this time. #wankers!
• The Court may benefit from directing both parties to obtain a report from their GP regarding any mental health concerns.
• Cafcass to complete an Updated Safeguarding Letter once information further information from Children’s Service is obtained.

So any help here would be useful, anyone a bit further on? Help Please !!!!

Hi, I’m somewhere between CAFCASS and first/second hearing. CAFCASS were ok when I talked with them. My case is very complicated due to ex making false allegations and actually getting one of my children to do the same.

It’s interesting that they recommended so many things to the courts for your case. Mine was nothing like that, CAFCASS recommended that social worker should consider carrying out a section 37 (care order) whilst they carry out a section 7 report. Also no contact due to the allegations that have been made, the CAFCASS officer did apologise to me for saying no contact. They explained it’s just procedure due to allegations being made.

I’ve had the first hearing it was done by video link which was ok. I found the judge to be very straight to the point and explained things clearly for me. My ex didn’t show up. Apparently she has a solicitor which I didn’t know until the hearing. So for now the judge has ordered several things.

Her to attend the next hearing, will she show? Who knows, she’s a narcissist and tends to do what she wants regardless!

A statement from ex outlining all her allegations with dates and was there any police or doctors involved and so on. Also if she had any evidence to support it.

I then have to respond to whatever she says with my side of things or if I deny them. And evidence I have.

A position statement from both sides as well.

This will all be considered at the next hearing, which is a directions hearing. From there they’ll hopefully start moving on with things and I’ll have a better idea where things will be going.

I think your in a somewhat similar position to me. Until you know what direction the courts are going in you can’t do to much or are unsure what you can do.

As Ash said the courts will follow some things CAFCASS say and not others. I’m assuming you’ll only find out what the courts have done and requested leading up to the first hearing. Also of your ex does provide a position statement and sets out her allegations, you should like me be given a copy of this before the hearing so you can respond.

 

[Roblox]

so here is my outcome so far from Cafcass, anyone got any help here with anything similar or advice,

advice to the Court:
• The Court should list the matter for a FHDRA to consider Fact Finding.
• The Court might benefit from directing Ex to complete a statement prior to the hearing outlining her allegations of domestic abuse.
• Once the issue of Fact Finding has been determined the Court should direct Cafcass to complete an s.7 report to explore the safeguarding concerns and determined the long-term contact arrangements for Child.
• Cafcass are unable to recommend any contact between Child and her father at this time. #wankers!
• The Court may benefit from directing both parties to obtain a report from their GP regarding any mental health concerns.
• Cafcass to complete an Updated Safeguarding Letter once information further information from Children’s Service is obtained.

So any help here would be useful, anyone a bit further on? Help Please !!!!

This sounds similar to what happened to me (last year). First hearing was skipped and straight to s7.

After s7 was done things changed quickly and I think ex was told its best to agree a way forward rather than leave the court to decide.

It's tough but don't take the no contact personally. They'll be doing it due to the allegations even though bollocks.

 

[Ash]

That's positive. So you went to final hearing after section 7 and got your order then?

 

[RJ25]

This sounds similar to what happened to me (last year). First hearing was skipped and straight to s7.

After s7 was done things changed quickly and I think ex was told its best to agree a way forward rather than leave the court to decide.

It's tough but don't take the no contact personally. They'll be doing it due to the allegations even though bollocks.

I know it’s tough and sucks big time. It’s been a year since I saw my children. Think my ex thought I’d either roll over an give up on my kids or due to me having mental health issues at the time possibly be intimidated enough I’d get worse to the point I’d actually take my own life, either would suit her just fine.

Believe me there’s been times when I’ve thought I could actually make the allegations stop if I just give her what she wants. I imagine she wants sole custody and nothing less. Nothing seems to be changing her mind but while she’s focused on that and doing everything she can to make me look like a monster she’s not looking at the bigger picture.

I look at it like this. I’m going in to this with nothing to loose (I’ve lost everything anyway) but I also have everything to gain. She on the other hand has everything to loose, I don’t think she sees this though. It’s all about getting at me and that’s her focus. She thinks she smarter than everyone else but she’s not. She thinks this is the best way to approach this and it’s not.

I might struggle at times with stressful situations and she knows this and I’ll admit I’m guilty of sticking my head in the sand at times. But if she was that smart she wouldn’t have underestimated me and just how hard I’ll fight for my children. They’re my world and I’ll never quit when it comes to them.

I hope things went well for you, did you get the order you wanted?