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Advice for complex case
- Thread starter Hobnob
- Start date
Well it took well over a year, but I finally got a psychologist report issued to the court, which stated that I should be having time with the kids, and there was a very big order made by the judge to confirm that. But it’s been avoided/ manipulated/ ignored so far, I’m meeting with the solicitor tomorrow to see what the next steps should be.
I haven’t seen older one since Nov ‘20, and outside of a psychologist office I haven’t seen younger once since Apr ‘21. The grief is pretty overwhelming, but all I can do is keep trying to move ahead day by day. I’ve tried to use the time to learn, research, and ‘better myself’, and I am now pretty able to say with certainty that the marriage was doing me no good at all.
What keeps me awake at night is the sense of loss, the memories- well over a decade of happy times, and the thought of the damage that the kids are experiencing. That and being accused of horrendous crimes without a shred of evidence (because it never happened), but the sense of missing the kids is always more powerful.
So in summary, in true ‘family court’ style, I have an order, and ex was threatened with losing the kids- so I felt great- then the slump of it being breached & realising the pressure & damage the kids are going through.
But tomorrow is another day I guess
I really feel for you my friend. Cafcass actually stated in their report that I had an in-depth understanding of the grief process. I do because I feel it every day. It's the wound that keeps getting opened, unlike the loss of someone due to passing away you cannot get closure. Alienation is the single most disgusting thing one human being can to others. I will never give up on my children because deep down inside they know something is very wrong.
That’s made me a bit emotional, you are so right. To get through being alienated you have to devote every atom of your body and soul to it, don’t you. And you’re right- it’s the lack of closure, but yet you also don’t want closure because you don’t want to believe they’re ‘gone’. It’s a bit like being dead while alive I’d say.
I manage my emotions and my moods as best I can, and I’ve never been one to lose my temper, pretty laid back. But the people that deliberately inflict this on children- it really should be classed as a criminal offence as with other types of abuse. That’s ignoring the effect it has on us, as no matter how bad it is for us, we’re older & we’ve done things we needed to do before they were born, this is inflicting a lifetime of problems on a child.
But.. as I say, you have to devote yourself to this, as allowing the grief to win (which would be very easy) is to give up on your children, as if you fall to pieces you won’t be the person you need to be for them, when they reappear at some stage.
So yeah, I thought your post was spot on there.
It should come under coercive control as that is illegal. And that's what it is. Ironically this is what the "Women's Aid" website states about coercive control:
Domestic abuse isn’t always physical. Coercive control is an act or a pattern of acts of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish, or frighten their victim.
This controlling behaviour is designed to make a person dependent by isolating them from support, exploiting them, depriving them of independence and regulating their everyday behaviour.This is what these women are doing to our children yet as men we are deemed the abuser without being able to air our views honestly and with no fear of repercussions. We may be waiting a long time for "Men's Aid".
Hear you Dads. I think there is a kind of Mens Aid - various groups. Obviously without the massive government funding Womens Aid has. We usually point people in the direction of the Mankind Initiative. They are mainly for male victims of abuse, but as you say, PA is abuse of the parent and the child as well.
Yes it is coercive control of children when someone actively alienates them using manipulation and other tactics. So really PA is seen as a child welfare issue - yet some people still sweep it under the carpet. As they do with emotional abuse generally.
It's brutal. Brainwash and coerce the child with lies and then amputate the other parent from their lives. Or try to. But the best news for an alienator is that you've given up and deep down kids don't want you to give up, I am sure.
Someone had a consultation with Nick Woodall, the PA specialist, who told him - don't be surprised if your kids are secretly cyberstalking you to find out about you if they've been kept away. Because I believe they resist a lot of the time but are powerless to change anything.
Yes it is coercive control of children when someone actively alienates them using manipulation and other tactics. So really PA is seen as a child welfare issue - yet some people still sweep it under the carpet. As they do with emotional abuse generally.
It's brutal. Brainwash and coerce the child with lies and then amputate the other parent from their lives. Or try to. But the best news for an alienator is that you've given up and deep down kids don't want you to give up, I am sure.
Someone had a consultation with Nick Woodall, the PA specialist, who told him - don't be surprised if your kids are secretly cyberstalking you to find out about you if they've been kept away. Because I believe they resist a lot of the time but are powerless to change anything.
Yes that someone is me, and it’s true. Within a couple of months someone had tried to hack my Facebook, Instagram & Twitter accounts, even my Amazon account.
It didn’t last though, I don’t think that carries on indefinitely.. I never post on those platforms anyway so there wasn’t much to see, although I was intrigued as to why they’d try to hack me. Nick also said to post picture of the kids telling them they loved you, for a number of reasons I didn’t do that, but I think that’s good advice if your kids are tech savvy.
Nick was very good, he really opened my eyes as to how easy it is to alienate kids.
Another important point for dads going through this, and it was remarked upon in my report. Kids generally do this to the parent that’s the ‘softer’ one, because they intuitively know that parent will forgive them. Scant comfort I know, but I do find that knowledge helps.
Thanks - that backs it up then - it was another Dad who told me about that quite a few years ago and it seems to be correct then. It's difficult for some kids as well if the ex monitors their online time heavily. My son has tried a few ways round things but got caught a couple of times. Had to warn him that Whatsapp messages get archived even if deleted. For a while he would whatsapp me then delete the message again. When we were apart during the first lockdown.
Yes it was pretty bad during the first lockdown but after that I was seeing him regularly (after a bit of a fight by email). As I see him regularly there's not much need to text - and it wouldn't be allowed. The only thing that's allowed is asking me to pay his dinner money
It is easy - which is what makes me think it's deliberate in many cases and not just some mental aberration - or a combination of the two. There's an article on here "Confessions of a reformed Alienator" that describes that and also says it was easy - but also encouraged in a way by her solicitor who kind of talked her into making allegations for legal aid.
Agree it's the softer parent they hope will keep loving them regardless and won't reject them.
Thread 'Interview with a self-confessed alienator' https://dadswithkids.co.uk/threads/interview-with-a-self-confessed-alienator.47/
Thank you. This is exactly what the ex is doing. So damaging to the children
I need some more advice guys please.
I'm due a call with the kids later. My son doesn't speak to me at all, my eldest daughter didn't speak to me until this weekend. After a couple of hours with her it's back to being ignored so I suspect no contact with my eldest daughter tonight. My youngest daughter has previously barricaded herself in her room shout go away and leave me alone, I don't want to speak to him. Last week she just didn't answer and was on the floor cowering in a ball behind the sofa, according to her mother.
The mother has stated all contact to go through her phone, she constantly interjects and comments on the children saying they don't want to speak to you etc. If they do speak to me she very often finishes sentences and speaks for them.
It making the kids and me very anxious and I'm concerned my calls are doing more harm than good at the moment.
Any suggestions as I obviously don't want to be seen to be giving up but on the same note I can't bear hearing my children so distressed
I'm due a call with the kids later. My son doesn't speak to me at all, my eldest daughter didn't speak to me until this weekend. After a couple of hours with her it's back to being ignored so I suspect no contact with my eldest daughter tonight. My youngest daughter has previously barricaded herself in her room shout go away and leave me alone, I don't want to speak to him. Last week she just didn't answer and was on the floor cowering in a ball behind the sofa, according to her mother.
The mother has stated all contact to go through her phone, she constantly interjects and comments on the children saying they don't want to speak to you etc. If they do speak to me she very often finishes sentences and speaks for them.
It making the kids and me very anxious and I'm concerned my calls are doing more harm than good at the moment.
Any suggestions as I obviously don't want to be seen to be giving up but on the same note I can't bear hearing my children so distressed
It gives you an insight into the mindset.
This is what a manipulative alienating parent will do. Phone contact when they are under her influence is not good, but it's the main contact you have and if it's court ordered you're supposed to try (and so is she). I really think courts need to get up to date with modern technology being an influence in phone contact. It's an easy stop gap to say phone contact when it depends on what the ex is actually doing.
Anything reasonable you ask for will be ignored (eg to text your ex first and ask if you can speak to the children without her being present or without her talking as well). On the other hand that could be some evidence for your next hearing. By asking for that, you're showing that she interferes in phone contact! Her reply might be useful as well. If she says the kids don't want to talk to you.
Does the order specify which phone the phone contact has to go by? If not then there is no reason you can't phone them individually - but I'm not sure I'd advise that as a) they would get into trouble and b) they might just be told not to answer. As it's your ex's responsibility to make sure these calls take place then she has to "facilitate" them. Whichever phone the calls come through on.
Been there when my son was away for a while. While it was done via his phone he would look scared, roll his eyes and indicate to the door behind him as if to say - she's there listening". As he wasn't allowed to sound happy or pleased to see me he opted to say nothing at all hoping I would know he just wasn't able to talk normally. I had the advantage of many years of seeing him regularly and this was a temporary situation and its the same now I see him regularly - normal relationships when he's here but any phone contact is either avoided or hostile. Very clear what's going on.
What to do. I don't know. I'll have a think
Ok. So that email I suggested you send to the court. If you haven't done already, add a little bit saying that phone contact with the children is not working as Mrs Ex is always present and either interferes or prevents them speaking openly. And you feel it is imperative that actual time is ordered with the children as soon as possible as the longer this situation is pressured and stressful for the children, the more likely they are to reject seeing or speaking with you.
Hey there
Been in the same position, its very bad I know.
Do not decide to not have the call. If you do that then you will be told that you didn't want to speak to them and you risk being hauled in to get the order dismissed.
If you do get to speak to them, its unlikely that you will get any kind of positive result because mum will be there influencing, and to be frank the kids will be in an impossible position. If it was me I'd just start by saying something like "I know how hard this is for you, I just want to tell you that I love you and I will always be here for you", and emphasise it. Don't look for anything back, just make sure that message gets across clearly.
Calls never work, and unless its specified that the calls are personal and mum is out of the room I have no idea why any court bothers ordering them.
I know exactly where you're coming from- getting the right balance between wanting to have time with them and not wanting to cause them any more stress is very hard. So like I say, if it was me I'd get the key messages across- that you love them & will always be there for them, and then let it go. If you can document what happens or make a recording then I'd do that too.
I don't know the content of your order, but its vital that you protect yourself and make sure that you aren't seen to be rejecting contact by having just a short call. That would be ideal for your ex. I'd have a letter drafted to raise the issue and say that you are not varying the order but in this instance did what you were forced to do by mum's interjections. You have no intention of varying the order, but you would like the court's help in remedying the situation because it appears that mum is not respecting the children's right to have undisrupted access to their father. Could they please enforce that mum is in a different room or something- solicitor will know more but basically... get the key message across, and then make sure you can't be accused of not wanting the call & ask court for assistance in helping the children have time with you as per their own order.
Hobnob.....record the call, demonstrate total love and care on your part and let her hang herself by her own controlling, interfering and intimidating actions. I once recorded a call and transcribed it. Made wonderful reading against the subsequent different version of events ie lies that were spouted at a future date.
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