Variation of CAO - 14 yr old refuses to see her Mum

[tired]

Hi all

I am divorced from Ex wife she left me for another man - we have a 14 year old daughter - I applied for COA and prohibitive steps order Jan 2021 but due to pandemic court delays meant that CAO was not finalised until April 2022. I have 70% care of our daughter, we have a shared care order.

Daughter really dislikes her Mum's new partner and states he is controlling and Mum doesn't spend any time with her. Daughter refuses to see her Mum completely now. I have arranged for them to meet and talk but Mum cant listen and just bullies our daughter stating she is a child and will do as she is told.

Daughter has not seen her Mum for 5 months now and flatly refuses to contact via text, WApp or FB either. This means I am effectively in breach of the CAO but I can honestly say that I have done everything in my power to encourage her to see her Mum. I think every child needs a mother, especially a young girl but I have done everything I can to encourage her and I have failed. Mum tried to prevent me taking her on holiday, stopped her going away with her cheerleader club and tried to stop her taking part in boxing lessons.

Three months ago daughter has asked me if she can go court to speak to the judge and ask that she is not forced to see her Mum. I asked her to give things time and see if they settled. She has returned to me stating she has given it time and feels even more strongly that she does not want contact with her Mum.

I believe I will have to apply to vary the CAO - do you think a judge will change the order? My daughter is very keen to speak to the judge and explain why, but I dont know if she will get that opportunity - does anyone have any advice please?

Thank you

 

[Ash]

Hi. It's tricky. Because if the shoe was on the other foot - Dads go to court complaining the ex says "child doesn't want to see you and refuses to go" and they consider that parent has alienated the child against the Dad. Then it's - does she really not want to go and why - or is the parent alienating? The idea being that, if a parent is parenting properly the child should be encouraged to see both parents and the onus is on you to explain to your daughter why it's important to keep up relationships with both parents.

These cases can get very long and drawn out. Not as simple as applying to court and your daughter speaking to a Judge. It could take a year to 18 months. And they will probably do something like a family assistance order to try and monitor and ensure your daughter goes as per the court order and report on how things are - or recommend some therapy to improve relationships with the Mother.

So - what happens if you just do nothing? And your daughter doesn't go? Do you think your ex will apply to enforce the breach? She no doubt would argue that you are alienating your daughter because you don't like her new partner because she had an affair. The court won't know what is true and will have to investigate.

Could you have mediation with your ex to try and resolve things so your daughter still sees her and you're not in breach of the order? I think the court will expect you to have tried mediation first. Basically it's usually frowned upon to just say "child doesn't want to go". Even if your daughter said that to a court herself, they may wonder if she's been put up to it.

If it was the other way round, and a 14 year old said they didn't want to see their Dad, the chances are Cafcass would go with that and say - she doesn't want to and she's old enough to decide. But as it's this way round, and Cafcass are basically trained to think Mothers are the most important thing - I can't see them doing that.

I think you need to try and sort something out, if you can, without court at this stage. In a couple of years your daughter will be 16 and have a lot more say. Things change all the time - you may get a new partner, your ex may split up with hers - but providing it's safe they are expected to keep that connection with both parents.

So suggest you try talking to your ex (either directly or at mediation) and say to her - these are the issues - how can we sort it out? I am not trying to stop her seeing you but she's not happy about x y and z and is there something you can do so she can enjoy time with you.

On the other hand, maybe there is something more to it. Is your daughter uncomfortable around ex's partner for some reason? Maybe you could ask her what makes her feel uncomfortable and see what she says. If it's something like shouting and not being very nice - at least that is nothing suspicious. If she says he looks at her a certain way - that's something to worry about more.

Your ex is responsible though. The court aren't going to stop her seeing her Mother unless something very serious is going on and social services are involved and tell you to keep her with you.

But the expectation of you would be - to try and co parent and sort it out. And keep records of that - emails, diary notes of discussions with ex - so if you do need to go to court, you can prove that you tried to resolve it.

If your daughter really didn't want to go, she could call social services herself. Not sure if that would help much though.

Sorry I haven't really been much help or answered your question.

But first thing I would do is text your ex and ask for a discussion to resolve some things - either directly or at mediation.

Are you sure your daughter's dislike of ex's partner isn't just loyalty to you if she thinks you're upset about the affair?

 

[Peanut 21]

Hi tired (good name-aren't we all!?)

As much as your daughter wants to speak to the judge I would keep her out of it.
It sounds like she has a loyalty bind as her mum cheated on you. But as she gets older with life experiences of her own and she understands relationships and the complexities of them she will see it differently.
14 is a very difficult age with hormones and general teenage angst.
I think if she went to court about not seeing her mum she would regret it in later years and have guilt.
Would your daughter go to therapy? I think it's important she speaks to someone neutral about this. It also shows you have tried another route to get things moving. Maybe her school can help with this?
Just to repeat, keep your daughter out of court.
It sounds like she just doesn't like your exs partner. If you get social services involved it's a whole new ball game believe me!

 

[Peanut 21]

Also, did your daughter have a good relationship with her mum before the separation?

 

[Resolute]

A couple of thoughts.

1) In the blurb I received from a mediation service I was going to use, it did say that the child could be involved in the process. This could be a way of giving your daughter a voice without speaking to a judge. It would also show you are attempting to resolve things and have that on record.

2) The therapy idea is not just good for your daughter's well-being. It would also put a professional assessment of her take on record. She would probably disclose to the therapist that you have been encouraging her to comply with the order. The therapist would likely form an opinion on whether or not your daughter is 'Gillick competent.' There would be opportunity for family therapy, you and/or mum to join. Fine if your daughter refuses, but again, your attempt to resolve would be on record. If court becomes necessary, all this would form part of disclosure and feed into CAFCASS report(s).

If the order is not being complied with, it is more mum's job to enforce than it is your job to change. Be very nice and resolution focussed in correspondence with ex. Court proceedings for a child this age are of questionable value. By the time process concludes, the final order would not apply for very long. In the end, a 14 year old cannot be forced to see a parent they do not want to see. Not even by the court.

 

[Ash]

Some good suggestions there - particularly child inclusive mediation. I don't necessarily agree with the idea a 14 year old can't be forced to see a parent even by the court. Because most kids, even 14 year olds, are happy to see a parent - unless they are being pressurised or influenced not to. Or unless there are some situations they don't like - and those are the situations that could be resolved by discussion.

Basically courts do enforce orders for 14 year olds and make clear to the parent who says the child doesn't want to go - that it is their parental responsibility to bring the child up to do it. They can't just say they don't want to go to school - parents would be breaking the law if they said ok fine you don't have to go to school. What they should do is - parenting. It's in your best interests to have a relationship with both parents - and I'm telling you it's important you go and keep trying and I will try and sort things out with Mum so it's better for you there.

An argument in court, against someone saying 14 year old doesn't want to go is "that's a failure of parenting". It's too easy to say you can't force a child. They shouldn't need forcing. They just need things explaining.

Unless there is abuse.

 

[StayStrong]

Basically courts do enforce orders for 14 year olds and make clear to the parent who says the child doesn't want to go - that it is their parental responsibility to bring the child up to do it.

Sorry Ash, but this is far a too simplistic an approach. I am very capable of my parental responsibilities and of properly 'bringing a child' up.

I don't say "the (young adult) child doesn't want to go".....that young adult does not want a relationship with Mum and tells me so. What do you suggest? I bundle the young adult in a car and deliver that humam being elsewhere to fulfil my parental responsibility??

They can't just say they don't want to go to school - parents would be breaking the law if they said ok fine you don't have to go to school.

Not completely true: home schooling is possible, for example.

What they should do is - parenting.

That's precisely what I do. I remain deeply upset about my young adult's choices regarding Mum and have tried reasoning and cajoling - but only so far. Why? Beause if I tread over a certain line I am in severe jeopardy that I will isolate this young adult from the one parent they currently have, respect and admire. Hell, my own life would be a whole lot better if it wasn't for this sad state of affairs....and I would be tens of thousands of £££££'s better off. I am very capable of parenting.

It's in your best interests to have a relationship with both parents - and I'm telling you it's important you go and keep trying and I will try and sort things out with Mum so it's better for you there.

Sure, sounds like wise words, all well and good. But I'll tell you what: how about this Dad endlessly asking Mum to attend Family Therapy to try and restore the hugely fractured relationship with this young adult that she has? Sounds like good parenting to me, eh? And then for every requst to be rejected, for the claims of alienation by this Dad to be repeated louder and louder, for this professional and that professional to be actively engaged by Mum, for their reports to be produced.....and for Mum to reject every single recommendation ever made because it never suited her cause.

Sometimes sorting things out with Mum is not an option. And an intelligent young adult understands this too. An intelligent young adult fatigued by endless "curious questioning" by the professionals commandeered by Mum. The ones who wrote the considered recommendations that Mum roundly rejected.....each and every time.

An argument in court, against someone saying 14 year old doesn't want to go is "that's a failure of parenting". It's too easy to say you can't force a child. They shouldn't need forcing. They just need things explaining.

Perhaps you will now see that this is too simplistic a view. That explaining to a "child" is not the same as a young adult. That it is not a failure of parenting that, over time, that human has formed opinions that are entirely valid and without influence or control by one parent. And that those wishes and feelings have to be respected for the sake of the young adult within all of this.

Unless there is abuse.

Accepted. But again it is not so simple. I know.

All the best, SS.

 

[Resolute]

I agree with Ash that it is the parent's responsibility to make this work. I also agree that the court will likely, and hopefully, take a dim view of a parent who just says: "they don't want to go, what am I meant to do about it?"

Hopefully mediation and/or a therapist will have one of two outcomes. Either, they help your daughter and her mother see changes needed to allow their relationship to get back on track. Perhaps, at a less intense level than in the current order. Or, if it does go back to court, they show that it is not your influence/manipulation that has led to where things are.

As we know from many stories told by dads who cannot see their kids, an enforcement order does not necessarily result in much change.

 

[Ash]

It depends on the circumstances Stay Strong. I was putting the position that happens so often to Dads, when a child gets to 14 and the Mother says "he doesn't want to come" - when in fact the child is not allowed to come and it's just an excuse by the Mother. A good lawyer would argue the points I was making above - that it's a failure of parenting by the Mother and her responsibility to follow the court order not discourage the child from coming. It's usually a Mother's argument "well I'm not going to "force" them to come". Those are usually the words of an alienator. What is a Dad supposed to do if they can't see their 14 year old any more? Either the court gets very tough with the Mother to make sure she follows the order (there is nothing like fear to help a parent find ways of making going to Dads something to look forward to!). Or consider transfer of residence if she doesn't do it. There are cases of transfer of residence of 13 to 14 year olds. Depending on the case.

So it's the same in reverse - why should it be any different if a Dad says - child doesn't want to go? Why shouldn't the Mother argue the same things - he's manipulated the child into refusing to come, he's not encouraging the child - etc etc.

The difference being - a Mother is more likely to get away with it than a Dad.

I have no idea if the poster is on speaking terms with his ex or not, or whether she would be amenable to mediation or not. That would be the ideal and to try dialogue before court.

Tired - if that's not possible, I think you should take legal advice if you're not able to follow the order. To cover yourself. Eg by some kind of solicitor's letter explaining why you wish to change things and see what happens.

 

[Ash]

As we know from many stories told by dads who cannot see their kids, an enforcement order does not necessarily result in much change.

Except for Mothers. If a Mother enforces, Cafcass will be involved and will side with her. If a Dad enforces, a Mother usually uses it as an opportunity to ask for variation for less time saying schedule isn't working and child needs more independence etc etc.

 

[Ash]

Also, did your daughter have a good relationship with her mum before the separation?

Good point. We don't know the whole situation. Ideally your daughter would have good relationships with all family members on both sides. I think having someone for your daughter to talk to is a good idea - she may have very mixed feelings.

 

[Resolute]

This is from a Court of Appeal judgment in a case where kids did not want to see their dad:

‘There are many things which they ought to do, that children may not want to do, or even refuse to do. Going to the dentist, going to visit some boring elderly relative, going to school, doing homework or sitting an examination, the list is endless. The parents’ job, exercising all their parental skills, techniques and stratagems – which may include use of both the carrot and the stick, to get the child to do what he does not want to do. The child’s refusal cannot, as such, be a justification for parental failure’

What is a parent’s responsibility if a child refuses to see the other parent?

A recent Court of Appeal case has confirmed the position that, if a child is refusing contact, the resident parent needs to ensure that the child is encouraged to attend contact in the first instance.

www.stoneking.co.uk

Again, two things:

1) It seems to have taken 7 years, and an appeal, to get this judgment. Several attempts by the court to 'encourage' kids to see dad failed. Father was limited to indirect contact and prevented from making applications to the court.

2) Even here, it is implicitly accepted that kids cannot be forced:

"exercising all their parental skills, techniques and stratagems – which may include use of both the carrot and the stick"

Think about it, if parents had such control, and responsibility, wouldn't they be guilty if a 14 year old committed a crime?

---------------------------------------------------

What this really boils down to, is not whether or not the parent succeeds in 'making' the child see their other parent. It is about whether or not reasonable steps are taken and sincere efforts are made.

There is a categorical distinction between parents who ostracise the other parent and those that try, but fail, to make their child's relationship with the other parent work.

We have gone a little far into the big question(s) here. I think for Tired, there are lots of details and little steps needed before we get to any crunch moment. I would always be ready for things to change completely. People are fickle, especially kids.

 

[Ash]

The carrot and the stick is basically saying - use parental techniques to get a child to do what they don't want to do. The issue is how is it proved that the parent did try everything first? It's easy to say - well I tried all that and he still didn't want to go. When you know damn well they did the opposite (been there).

The PA specialists would say - it's not normal for a child to refuse to see a parent. Even if it's an abusive parent. Therefore there is some parental alienation going on in the background. Whether consciously or unconsciously.

 

[Resolute]

The carrot and the stick is basically saying - use parental techniques to get a child to do what they don't want to do. The issue is how is it proved that the parent did try everything first? It's easy to say - well I tried all that and he still didn't want to go. When you know damn well they did the opposite (been there).

The PA specialists would say - it's not normal for a child to refuse to see a parent. Even if it's an abusive parent. Therefore there is some parental alienation going on in the background. Whether consciously or unconsciously.

I think the difference between our views is relatively subtle. But, with utmost respect, my view does differ.

I suggest further discussion belongs in a separate thread.

BW

 

[Ash]

I may have misunderstood what you were saying but agree, we don't want to distract from Tired's thread. However - it is relevant. He needs to look at what kind of reaction the court will have if he says his daughter doesn't want to see her Mum.

My conclusion is - legal advice is needed if it means he will be breaching the order - and maybe a solicitor letter needs sending to explain why and suggest mediation (if possible) to resolve things that are causing any issues.

 

[Resolute]

I suppose the difference is between saying "my daughter does not want to see her mum", and saying "despite my wish to the contrary, and demonstrable efforts to facilitate the relationship, my daughter has not yet engaged in any form of interaction with her mother".

The original post reports efforts to make the relationship with mother work, and portrays a positive attitude to maintaining a relationship with both parents. I don't want to assume this is bullshit and that Tired is actually just covering up an attempt to alienate. But, I accept that many before him have done just that.

With my daughter, progress comes by allowing her to find her own way. My role is to gently signpost relevant considerations as she discovers her route. Viewing compliance as imperative, and thinking in terms of 'force', are counter-productive - to my mind.

My view as to appropriate next steps will be formed after Tired tells us a little more about the situation.

 

[Ash]

I am just saying it's an area to handle carefully with the courts.

 

[Ash]

There would be two issues. If child is refusing to go - why?

1) Is there some issue at Mum's home that can be resolved?
2) Is there something else going on, like child being manipulated?

That's probably the way the court would look at it.

But I think it highly unlikely the court would say fine - child can live with you and never see the Mother. It's one of the basic welfare principles that the child (teen even) should have a significant relationship with both parents. If they don't see a parent at all they can't have a relationship. So it would be more of a section 7 issue - Cafcass would be looking into what the issues were and why the daughter didn't want to go and what could resolve it.

 

[Resolute]

There would be two issues. If child is refusing to go - why?

1) Is there some issue at Mum's home that can be resolved?
2) Is there something else going on, like child being manipulated?

That's probably the way the court would look at it.

But I think it highly unlikely the court would say fine - child can live with you and never see the Mother. It's one of the basic welfare principles that the child (teen even) should have a significant relationship with both parents. If they don't see a parent at all they can't have a relationship. So it would be more of a section 7 issue - Cafcass would be looking into what the issues were and why the daughter didn't want to go and what could resolve it.

Broadly, I agree. That is why I think it would be really valuable to involve "professionals". if a mediator and a therapist have explored the issue with the child, Cafcass bias is likely to be somewhat constrained.

However, if the court writes an order for child to see mother and it is not complied with, the judge is not sending heavies around to drag daughter to mum. She will hit 16 before anything of great consequence happens. It is telling that this is not yet in court, despite mum not seeing daughter for 5 months. If we were advising mum, we'd probably say that she is sacrificing the order by not enforcing.

 

[Ash]

In some ways Tired could just breach, see if the Mother enforces (which she probably will) and then give as a "reasonable excuse" why he had breached. But that's why I suggested legal advice, because if it's a reasonable excuse there would need to be some attempt to show he'd tried something or at least communicated the issue.

If she enforces they would tell him to follow the order. If he says he can't they'd probably order a section 7. But they do enforce orders for 14 year olds.