Time with the kids halved

[Jules72]

Right ok. So if this wasn't recommended by Cafcass then the Magistrates are wrong. I would appeal the decision. How long is it since the hearing? You have 21 days. That's why it's easy to appeal a Magistrate's decision (ie you don't need permission to appeal) because they are not Judges. If you appeal you get a District Judge and I have a feeling they will keep to the existing schedule and order that. Especially as the youngest is only 10!

As for your girlfriend - yes that sounds a typical thing an ex would do - complain about your gf and say child doesn't like her and get child to say that. However, having said that, sometimes children do feel a bit put out about a partner getting attention, even if they get on really well. So one thing that is good to do is have a bit of time just you and the kids rather than all together as a family the whole time.

My partner and I did this because we found it worked. My son would have the mornings at week-ends doing something with me. He'd have a couple of hours in the afternoon just wiht partner (when I had to do some work), then the rest of the afternoon and evening we'd all three do things together and have the family time. It worked well. They just want a bit of one to one sometimes.

There was a magistrate and a judge. The decision was two Fridays ago, so there’s time to appeal.

The other issue with appealing, aside from my being uncertain of their own views, is that my son is about to take his 11 plus. Don’t think it’s a great idea to put that at risk.

I feel like I’m losing my children. I don’t know whether it’s their age, or alienation, but I find it really difficult to get them to do stuff with me, even more so after the court decision. All they want is to sit there on their electronics… I need a new strategy for engaging and bonding with them.

 

[Unknown01]

Attitudes to spousal maintenance have changed in the courts. I would personally take the risk because she made a recital to seek work. At the very least you should get a solicitor to write to her demanding that she evidences what she has done to find a job.

 

[Unknown01]

Just another thought. Your youngest is 10 meaning that at the time of the divorce they were 2 years old. That would be a situation where nowadays the primary carer would get probably an extendable term of spousal maintenance rather than joint lives. The amount would probably be what you are paying now until they were 6 years old and then drop to a nominal amount as the primary carer could now work and provide for themselves plus benefits and child maintenance.

The date of when this happened is absolutely critical to your case. 2016 was a time of flux when a handful of significant cases hadn't quite filtered through to the County or Magistrate's Courts. In particular, there was the "Get A Job" ruling in 2015 in the case of Wright v Wright. Mrs Wright was planning to use her ex-husband as a meal ticket for life despite making a recital to the court that she would seek work. Mr Wright successfully had the spousal maintenance reduced, an end date set and a bar to prevent an extension of the end date. Mrs Wright was told that "nowadays, women just get on with it."

What most likely happened in your case (and this applies whether your ex got joint lives or a very long term of maintenance with no step down in amount over time) was that the judge was being over cautious. Back then, if a judge couldn't work out when the maintenance could be terminated they awarded joint lives or a term right up to the children's 18th birthday but they didn't do so with the intention that maintenance would run this long. The expectation was that in a reasonable timeframe the recipient would seek their financial independence. This however placed the onus on the payer to apply to vary the maintenance downwards or terminate it altogether.

The law has very much moved with the times in this regard. The law has never been ambiguous that BOTH parties must maximise their incomes but nowadays the expectation of what the weaker financial party can do has risen. Trust me, if she goes to court with no evidence of seeking work for 8 years when she made a recital to do so a judge is going to be furious with her. The likely outcome is that you won't be paying spousal maintenance a year from now and there will be no capitalisation. Just to be sure of that, how old is she?

 

[Jules72]

Just another thought. Your youngest is 10 meaning that at the time of the divorce they were 2 years old. That would be a situation where nowadays the primary carer would get probably an extendable term of spousal maintenance rather than joint lives. The amount would probably be what you are paying now until they were 6 years old and then drop to a nominal amount as the primary carer could now work and provide for themselves plus benefits and child maintenance.

The date of when this happened is absolutely critical to your case. 2016 was a time of flux when a handful of significant cases hadn't quite filtered through to the County or Magistrate's Courts. In particular, there was the "Get A Job" ruling in 2015 in the case of Wright v Wright. Mrs Wright was planning to use her ex-husband as a meal ticket for life despite making a recital to the court that she would seek work. Mr Wright successfully had the spousal maintenance reduced, an end date set and a bar to prevent an extension of the end date. Mrs Wright was told that "nowadays, women just get on with it."

What most likely happened in your case (and this applies whether your ex got joint lives or a very long term of maintenance with no step down in amount over time) was that the judge was being over cautious. Back then, if a judge couldn't work out when the maintenance could be terminated they awarded joint lives or a term right up to the children's 18th birthday but they didn't do so with the intention that maintenance would run this long. The expectation was that in a reasonable timeframe the recipient would seek their financial independence. This however placed the onus on the payer to apply to vary the maintenance downwards or terminate it altogether.

The law has very much moved with the times in this regard. The law has never been ambiguous that BOTH parties must maximise their incomes but nowadays the expectation of what the weaker financial party can do has risen. Trust me, if she goes to court with no evidence of seeking work for 8 years when she made a recital to do so a judge is going to be furious with her. The likely outcome is that you won't be paying spousal maintenance a year from now and there will be no capitalisation. Just to be sure of that, how old is she?

Thanks for that. She’s 51 and hasn’t worked for 15 years or so (her doing)… I wish you were right although the advice of my lawyer is that it’s far from a slam dunk… and that capitalisation is a real risk. Anyway, I’m certainly going to be pursuing this when my son is able to travel to school himself.

 

[Unknown01]

I guess it's not a slam dunk because she's 51 but bear in mind a lot of solicitors are over cautious which is why so many men end up paying spousal maintenance in the first place (I'd rather spend six figure sums on a final hearing than ever agree to pay so much as a penny of spousal maintenance to my ex-wife because every future success I had would no doubt come with litigation from a money grabbing parasite).

I think four years ago you would have had more luck. I guess a well timed job loss wouldn't be an option?

 

[Jules72]

I guess it's not a slam dunk because she's 51 but bear in mind a lot of solicitors are over cautious which is why so many men end up paying spousal maintenance in the first place (I'd rather spend six figure sums on a final hearing than ever agree to pay so much as a penny of spousal maintenance to my ex-wife because every future success I had would no doubt come with litigation from a money grabbing parasite).

I think four years ago you would have had more luck. I guess a well timed job loss wouldn't be an option?

Haha hope not… wasn’t as bad back then pre massive CPI rises!

 

[Oneofmany]

CPI???

 

[Unknown01]

Haha hope not… wasn’t as bad back then pre massive CPI rises!

I still think you might be storing up more problems by not ending it or at least questioning your wife on why she isn't working though. Perhaps framing it as a question of when the maintenance should begin to reduce rather than to terminate. I just think it's important that you make a point now that you are not happy about her not working when she ought to be.

 

[Ash]

There was a magistrate and a judge. The decision was two Fridays ago, so there’s time to appeal.

The other issue with appealing, aside from my being uncertain of their own views, is that my son is about to take his 11 plus. Don’t think it’s a great idea to put that at risk.

I feel like I’m losing my children. I don’t know whether it’s their age, or alienation, but I find it really difficult to get them to do stuff with me, even more so after the court decision. All they want is to sit there on their electronics… I need a new strategy for engaging and bonding with them.

When is the 11 plus? I understand your concerns though. There wouldn't be a magistrate and a Judge - it would be one or the other. There might have been a "legal adviser" assisting the magistrates though. Your order should make clear who heard the hearing.

If you submitted an appeal it would probably take a few weeks to get processed and even longer before a hearing. It's quite a bit of paperwork to sort out too. If you don't appeal, then an application to vary later is less likely to achieve anything the more time passes.

It's not an easy situation. You could just accept the reduced time - but the danger is your ex could do it again. Citing childrens wishes, and then it would be hard to enforce.

Do you still get half the school holidays?

 

[Jules72]

CPI???

My maintenance is linked to CPI… and, as many of you will have been on the end of yourselves, it was +11% in 2022, when my salary went up way less…. Seriously painful

 

[Jules72]

I still think you might be storing up more problems by not ending it or at least questioning your wife on why she isn't working though. Perhaps framing it as a question of when the maintenance should begin to reduce rather than to terminate. I just think it's important that you make a point now that you are not happy about her not working when she ought to be.

Yeah I questioned it through the lawyers a year back… she said she’ll get a job once the boy can travel to school himself…

 

[Jules72]

When is the 11 plus? I understand your concerns though. There wouldn't be a magistrate and a Judge - it would be one or the other. There might have been a "legal adviser" assisting the magistrates though. Your order should make clear who heard the hearing.

If you submitted an appeal it would probably take a few weeks to get processed and even longer before a hearing. It's quite a bit of paperwork to sort out too. If you don't appeal, then an application to vary later is less likely to achieve anything the more time passes.

It's not an easy situation. You could just accept the reduced time - but the danger is your ex could do it again. Citing childrens wishes, and then it would be hard to enforce.

Do you still get half the school holidays?

Yeah must have been a legal advisor then, rather than magistrate.

11+ is over next 2-3 months. My ex and myself had a big wrangle when my daughter had her 11+, so best to keep things quiet I think - my boy is under a lot of pressure as it is.

I don’t get half holidays - I need to be at work at 8am and someone needs to take my son to school… still, when he becomes able to, maybe half the holidays is a possibility.

 

[Unknown01]

Yeah I questioned it through the lawyers a year back… she said she’ll get a job once the boy can travel to school himself…

Not good enough. You need a court to tell her to get off her lazy arse and work. Promises count for nothing and I promise you she will make every excuse under the sun as to why she cannot find a job.

Your solicitor is being too timid. What you could do is seek a variation to step the maintenance down so it doesn't go to zero straight away but does reduce by what she can get paid and maybe what she can get in benefits.

 

[Ash]

Children can travel to school themselves from the age of 8.

Ok that is bad timing with the eleven plus. If you wait till it's over, it's too late to appeal. It's unlikely you'd get an appeal hearing before 3 to 4 months if you appealed now - but your ex might get some paperwork about it within that time.

Half the holidays is fairly standard. If you weren't getting it before then you'd be less likely to get it now.

 

[Unknown01]

I will just reiterate again that spousal maintenance does not age well for the payer. Unless the payer regularly challenges the payment, then the consequences of every bad decision that the recipient makes can end up being shared. Your ex committed to finding work. She made a recital to court and she should have started doing so at least 4 years ago. At the very least, get a second opinion because I think your solicitor is being too negative about the likely outcome.

I think the most plausible outcome based on recent cases is that the maintenance will be reduced in 6 months on the assumption that she can work and then reduced to a nominal amount when your youngest is 12. Capitalisation would require the court to accept that a perfectly healthy 51 year old cannot work, which is clearly nonsense.