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Three day hearing coming up
- Thread starter BirminghamUK
- Start date
Just received the bundle email from the ex sol, disclosures are in, as usual there is a lot of documents in there, so many that causes confusion.. Not sure how much the judges will look into all pages...
I'm pretty sure they deliberately omitted documents too to fit their narrative. The usual..
Not too bothered, I'll focus on defending myself on the 7 scot allegations.
Not much in the evidence section pointing to me, just the usual distraction, random gobbledegook type screenshots, photos of fabricated evidence emails and daughters medical records where mother has logged claims.... On behalf of our daughter... Unproven
See how the sols package it up...
I'm pretty sure they deliberately omitted documents too to fit their narrative. The usual..
Not too bothered, I'll focus on defending myself on the 7 scot allegations.
Not much in the evidence section pointing to me, just the usual distraction, random gobbledegook type screenshots, photos of fabricated evidence emails and daughters medical records where mother has logged claims.... On behalf of our daughter... Unproven
See how the sols package it up...
Noted for next time, hope there isn't a next time...
That is good news that it's in and sounds like the hearing is going to go ahead. It sounds tricky if she has included falsified evidence to back up her allegations. I assume you can counteract that with your own evidence.
You've been on with this for a very long time and I applaud you for sticking with it. Keeping all fingers crossed for you.
You've been on with this for a very long time and I applaud you for sticking with it. Keeping all fingers crossed for you.
I think the main thing is - if she has fabricated evidence, that you have something on paper to prove something is fabricated. If you can prove that for just one of her allegations then all the others have no substance. So for example if one of the allegations is that you set fire to her car on 17th July. If you have a receipt or ticket that shows you were at the other end of the country on 17th July - that kind of thing. Or if she says you sent abusive texts to her family in February 2020 - and you have a print out of your phone records for 2020 showing no such texts or calls were ever made. If you can prove just one thing is completely false, with documentary evidence, all her allegations could be dismissed.
So if you have something like that - that proves an allegation is false - focus on that.
So if you have something like that - that proves an allegation is false - focus on that.
Outcome of 3 day hearing... Cut short to just over an hour.
Judge started off taking my side saying, 'this chap started his app in 2018, why has 4 years passed and yet no resolution, why so many allegations, these are grown adults etc etc. What's the problem he asked the exs barrister' barrister replied with the usual comments that discredit my application.
Then judge said the mothers 7 scot allegations are old and stale and he asked the ex barrister what do they want. Ex sol replied, they want to revise their scot allegations to include allegations in August 2021, to my disappointment the judge accepted and gave them 14 days to submit and another 21 days for me to respond with questions. We know what happens here, due to busy courts the next hearing will probably set in another 6 to 9 months time. We'll see.
I did raise the issue of a) why was the Aug 2021 allegation not raised in the October 2021 hearing (barrister squirmed her way out of that one) and b) previous police disclosures took one year to get and that would also delay the case further. Judge asked barrister will they need police disclosures, barrister replied no. I asked for that to be included in recitals that no further disclosures will be needed. In hindsight I should have said 'how serious are these fresh allegations if they do not need disclosures'
Judge still wants to summon Mr x, even though I told the judge that according to the courts, they are unable to Contact mr x and that he failed to turn up to a previous summons by the family court, judge wasn't taking any more suggestions from me regarding the ex's boyfriend (Mr x).
I did challenge the judge on certain things especially the deliberate delay tactics by the ex, he replied he can't do anything about the direct contact until this scot allegation mess is cleared.
In regards to legal aid. The barrister claimed that it was suspended without reason, even though we know that the legal aid was deliberately withdrawn (signed by the ex sol). Ex will be putting in a new application under some new advocacy scheme, barrister asked judge to endorse it, judge agreed. Judge also said he prefers if at least one side is represented, else more work for the court.
I feel like no matter how much I challenge the ex's barristers excuses, today's outcome would be inevitable due to the judge we had today and the framework he was trying to comply with.
I feel like I have failed. My statements had very little impact today.
Judge started off taking my side saying, 'this chap started his app in 2018, why has 4 years passed and yet no resolution, why so many allegations, these are grown adults etc etc. What's the problem he asked the exs barrister' barrister replied with the usual comments that discredit my application.
Then judge said the mothers 7 scot allegations are old and stale and he asked the ex barrister what do they want. Ex sol replied, they want to revise their scot allegations to include allegations in August 2021, to my disappointment the judge accepted and gave them 14 days to submit and another 21 days for me to respond with questions. We know what happens here, due to busy courts the next hearing will probably set in another 6 to 9 months time. We'll see.
I did raise the issue of a) why was the Aug 2021 allegation not raised in the October 2021 hearing (barrister squirmed her way out of that one) and b) previous police disclosures took one year to get and that would also delay the case further. Judge asked barrister will they need police disclosures, barrister replied no. I asked for that to be included in recitals that no further disclosures will be needed. In hindsight I should have said 'how serious are these fresh allegations if they do not need disclosures'
Judge still wants to summon Mr x, even though I told the judge that according to the courts, they are unable to Contact mr x and that he failed to turn up to a previous summons by the family court, judge wasn't taking any more suggestions from me regarding the ex's boyfriend (Mr x).
I did challenge the judge on certain things especially the deliberate delay tactics by the ex, he replied he can't do anything about the direct contact until this scot allegation mess is cleared.
In regards to legal aid. The barrister claimed that it was suspended without reason, even though we know that the legal aid was deliberately withdrawn (signed by the ex sol). Ex will be putting in a new application under some new advocacy scheme, barrister asked judge to endorse it, judge agreed. Judge also said he prefers if at least one side is represented, else more work for the court.
I feel like no matter how much I challenge the ex's barristers excuses, today's outcome would be inevitable due to the judge we had today and the framework he was trying to comply with.
I feel like I have failed. My statements had very little impact today.
The barrister claimed their legal aid was revoked / suspended and that the sol spent all of yesterday trying to find out why without success.
What I didn't say to the judge at the time is that the legal aid was withdrawn deliberately by the ex's solicitor... I have a signed copy.
Not sure how these legal aid discharge cert stuff works... Is it always signed by the claimants solicitor?
Is it worth me sending this withdrawal cert to court addressed to today's judge saying that the legal aid was withdrawn by ex sol 'according to the certificate that I received' despite the barrister advising judge differently?
Or would this look like a lowly desperate attempt to discredit the ex's position?
And have little impact in the upcoming hearing?
What I didn't say to the judge at the time is that the legal aid was withdrawn deliberately by the ex's solicitor... I have a signed copy.
Not sure how these legal aid discharge cert stuff works... Is it always signed by the claimants solicitor?
Is it worth me sending this withdrawal cert to court addressed to today's judge saying that the legal aid was withdrawn by ex sol 'according to the certificate that I received' despite the barrister advising judge differently?
Or would this look like a lowly desperate attempt to discredit the ex's position?
And have little impact in the upcoming hearing?
Looks like the judge I had on Wednesday has had his decsions appealed against in the past by fathers who challenged past decisions
fair enough he is a achieved man, but come on mate, when your times up and you allow injustice, time to hang up your wig mate and call it a day!
fair enough he is a achieved man, but come on mate, when your times up and you allow injustice, time to hang up your wig mate and call it a day!
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I'm still in shock about Wednesdays decision.
NMO granted to ex Jul 2020
PreTrial and FF Jan 2021, the ex sol didnt serve me papers, court pushed pretrial to Apr 2021, subsequently the recorder set the FF for Oct 2021
Oct 2021 FF, judge considered new evidence from ex's BF, adjourned to May 2022, disclosures not received in time and judicial availability issues, FF set for Nov 2022,
Adjourned again because judge dismissed allegations as stale and old and judge invited more allegations / revised allegations, therefore now expecting another pretrial and another FF, (could be another year)
is this normal, can't be .....surely.
i feel like logging a complaint with the office for judicial complaints.. what do you think @Ash ?
NMO granted to ex Jul 2020
PreTrial and FF Jan 2021, the ex sol didnt serve me papers, court pushed pretrial to Apr 2021, subsequently the recorder set the FF for Oct 2021
Oct 2021 FF, judge considered new evidence from ex's BF, adjourned to May 2022, disclosures not received in time and judicial availability issues, FF set for Nov 2022,
Adjourned again because judge dismissed allegations as stale and old and judge invited more allegations / revised allegations, therefore now expecting another pretrial and another FF, (could be another year)
is this normal, can't be .....surely.
i feel like logging a complaint with the office for judicial complaints.. what do you think @Ash ?
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Do you want to appeal the decision?
Yeah I think it's the right thing to do, how can a judge deliberately delay findings like that? I think I must act now else face more delays and more tactics.
oh that in itself looks to be a tricky and lengthy process
My partners ex appealed last hearing. She's been granted permission to appeal. Maybe get legal advice on how likely your appeal will be granted.
I think you have good grounds to appeal due to the history. You need permission to appeal but
"You can make the application for permission to appeal and the appeal together, using the same form."
Just working out which form it is. There is FP161 for family court appeals to the high court. Guidance here. However it is not clear whether you should use that one or form N161 and I agree, you might need to get a free half hour legal advice to decide which form to fill in. I am sure once you know the correct form, it will not be that complicated to complete but it needs to be done quickly (I think within 10 days of a hearing?)
I would also file a formal complaint as well.
For that you need form Ex343a - advice elsewhere was given as "quote the childrens act 1989 section 1(2) delay is harmful https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/41/section/1 and family procedure rules "Overriding objective" https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/family/parts/part_01 - part 01 1.1 (2) (a) cases should be dealt with expeditiously. Ask that they list it as a telephone hearing and that it will harm your children if they don't list it urgently."
"You can make the application for permission to appeal and the appeal together, using the same form."
Just working out which form it is. There is FP161 for family court appeals to the high court. Guidance here. However it is not clear whether you should use that one or form N161 and I agree, you might need to get a free half hour legal advice to decide which form to fill in. I am sure once you know the correct form, it will not be that complicated to complete but it needs to be done quickly (I think within 10 days of a hearing?)
I would also file a formal complaint as well.
For that you need form Ex343a - advice elsewhere was given as "quote the childrens act 1989 section 1(2) delay is harmful https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/41/section/1 and family procedure rules "Overriding objective" https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/family/parts/part_01 - part 01 1.1 (2) (a) cases should be dealt with expeditiously. Ask that they list it as a telephone hearing and that it will harm your children if they don't list it urgently."
It was totally unnecessary to cancel a 3 day fact find hearing you've waited so long for, on the grounds that the Mother's allegations were "stale" and she might want to file some new ones. What that was basically doing was saying - the Mother can keep witholding the children because she's making allegations - which is basically saying the Judge has sided with the Mother without the hearing going ahead to prove or disprove the allegations. It could have gone very differently. The allegations could have been heard - found for or against. Then if found for you they may have said - but we have new allegations and the Judge could have said - I've heard enough. Move on to a final hearing with evidence.