Strange Discussion with ex

[Resolute]

No need to apologise mate, you have a lot to deal with.

"When you say pending alcohol test results would this be the actual hair strand test or one of the others that don't measure as long a period?"

It would be up to the judge/magistrate to order the tests they believe would assist the court, it could be both. This would need her agreement, they do not strap people down to get a sample. Classic line is if somebody does not do testing "the court is liable to draw its own conclusions." Getting her refusal can be almost as powerful as a terrible result.

"I really want to get this Hair strand test done asap. Could I offer to pay for it myself possibly?"

Yes you can offer to pay for it. If you are certain of the result that might be a good idea. If she dodges a "chronic excessive" result, that could work against you.

It is important to remember that a bad result on hair strand requires very consistent drinking over the period tested. It does not judge big binges. Nor does it measure by degree within a result band. There is no "almost chronic excessive" outcome. Half a bottle of brandy every second day is fine, just as fine as four pints every Friday and Saturday night - no distinction in the result.

Advantage of the peth test is that it would show what has been happening since she was put on notice about her drinking. Hair strand could be explained away as what happened before she turned over a new leaf.

Companies offered bundles with both tests and a report last time I looked.

"To be honest Im not really sure there is a risk of harm to him while at the sisters if the sister is there. But thats not to say I dont think my ex will turn up at her sisters half drunk. Maybe not at the point where shes falling all over the place but it wouldnt suprise me if shes drunk."

I'm not sure you'd be attracted to the idea of a contact centre if there wasn't something that doesn't seem right/safe about the current arrangement. Who do you think the sister would tell if mum was falling all over the place? Aren't you entitled to feel assured she is not turning up half-cut?

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Thanks for the advice everyone, and thanks Res for the call the other day. It really helped me decide not to push for the hair strand test.

The visit Tuesday went fine, but today she got drunk again.

After the social workers told me not to give her so many video calls I distanced myself from her a bit but still did have a couple but not for so long. Today I told her that the social workers told me I shouldn't be video calling. She phoned the social workers and they said something along the lines of we can talk but not if were going to argue in front of the baby. In other words when she's drunk as that's when she picks an argument.

She had a meeting with the alcohol group today but never showed again as she was drunk (so no breathalyser) I ignored her after and she's stopped calling so assume she's passed out drunk now.

She also mentioned the social worker saying something about doing video calls where I have to drop him to a contact centre. How does that even work? The court said I have to drop him to her sisters for contact twice a week and more would be a lot of stress for the baby. It seems to be going a against what the court said to be doing that. Also if someone's there to do a video contact like that wouldn't it be just the same as doing a normal contact in the contact centre? I mean if they have to employ someone to look after our baby for a video call why not just do a live contact? It doesn't really make any sense.

 

[Ash]

You need to be careful here as it sounds like Social services are not on your side here. They are concerned about conflict for the baby so are suggesting you're not present when there are video calls. I would very much reassure Social Services that the baby is not in the room when your ex phones up drunk and that there are no arguments (on your side) and you just listen and then the call ends.

 

[Resolute]

I like Ash's thought on this and that is a risk.

If SS are getting tired of mum, they might be looking for independent evidence of her being drunk and unreliable. This could be useful, but maybe mum would put on a better show for them than she does for you.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Ash before allowing a video call with the baby present now I always make sure she's not drunk with a voice call first. The video calls have been focused on the baby and have been generally quite pleasant. When she's drunk she does text some strange possibly incriminating things and she does slip up on a lot which can be quite useful,

I just found out that she missed her alcohol appointment again (she was going to have a breathalyser). However they gave her a phone call appointment instead. (this was earlier in the day when I think shed had a few but wasn't really drunk yet. She still would have failed the breathalyser though which I assume is why she didnt attend) I wonder if this will be noted down. Surely the alcohol people will see through her. I wonder if this will be noted. She also hasn't as of yet given the social workers permission to talk to the the alcohol people. This might raise suspicions with them too.

Res, she definitely would put on a better show for them. I can see when she's been drinking a few or tell by her voice, none of the professionals can simply because they don't know her as well. I mean they could if she was really really drunk but then she probably wouldn't answer the phone to them until she sobers up. Although having said that she has done in the past

I do find that talking to her when she's drunk gives me so much information that I wouldn't get overwise and if it wasnt for her drunk calls then I wouldn't be finding out these things and would have to go with the line her sisters were giving me. Ie shes engaging with the alcohol councillors, hasn't been drinking, is doing so well etc.

I really hope the social workers are allowed to liase with the alcohol councillors and they explain the real situation. Because Im pretty sure she is lying to them and they would have a different view of her if they knew the full story.

 

[Resolute]

In my experience, the alcohol people will only release information specifically requested by the court. If you go back reporting she has missed appointments, and she denies it, you might get attendance record listed as part of the disclosure ordered. Another option is to ask for record of each and every breathalyser result, this would also show non-attendance.

The alcohol service is there to support her, we should not expect them to confront her and trip her up all the time. That is not a good way of working with people whose lives are impacted negatively by alcohol.

This thing with the phone calls is to be handled carefully. If social services have concluded the calls between you and her are not good, it might be worth trying to keep them on side by complying. If they have also told mum they are opposed to the calls, this should mean she knows it is not you. Ramifications that result from calls stopping might be minimised as a result.

I hope you are getting support for yourself. Someone professional you can talk to so that your struggles, hopes and fears around this situation are also on record. The court might be interested in taking that into account as well, something to hold up against the picture she is giving her alcohol worker.

Edit:
Just had another read, do you have record of sister telling you that mum is doing well? If you do, it could massively compromise the sister's role.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

I think it wont be the court asking the alcohol people (for now anyway). The social workers are trying to get permission to lease with them but my ex has held back permission (for now). I get what you mean about them not trying to trip her up. The social workers would be looking into it though wouldn't they and possibly they would trip her up

As for stopping the calls I do think that stopping them would encourage her to make things up and it might make things harder for me. Also it would stop me from finding out what shes up to and knowing that she's still drinking. I guess things would be a lot harder if I didnt know all that.

As for my support I was supposed to get referred but havent yet. The social workers coming next week so might refer me then.

I do have some texts from her sister saying she is doing well. Texts after I had him with me then a few days later the ex is in hospital.

Ive just got back from a visit today. After the contact I dropped her and her daughter home. Stopped at the shop so they could get fish and chips to take home and she went to get a soft drink for her kids from the sweet shop next door. Her daughter put the plastic bag in the back of my car and I took a look. There was a bottle of wine in it. She couldn't even hide it from me then. So much for her "not drinking"

 

[Resolute]

I think the court is very likely to ask for records from the alcohol worker. If mum does not give consent for disclosure to the court, that will not reflect well.

If you told a solicitor you are giving lifts to your ex, I think their jaw would hit the floor!

I wonder if it would be worth you taking an approach similar to that used against most members on here. I know you are honourable and want to see your ex do well, that is greatly to your credit. But, if your ex is going to improve, she probably needs to realise this is the last chance saloon and she has to make hitting the grade as mum her only priority.

If she ends up represented at some point, I fear your failure to put barriers up, could be used against you.

If barriers did not help achieve a "live with" order, solicitors would not be such experts in putting them up.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Oh yes I hope the court will, was hoping the social workers would first though.

As for the lifts hers is a five minute drive back from her sisters on the way to mine and I didnt see the harm dropping her rather than having her and her daughter walk through the dark streets/park by themselves. Thought it was quite responsible thing to do. I never go in the house though, even when she asks. I do get what your saying though, do you think it looks bad to give a lift when asked?

I'm kind of torn here between stopping contact completely and being really horrible to her which would encourage her to make up all sorts of stuff or keeping her half on board and having her less inclined to do that.

The barriers I have put up is less time/frequency on video calls, none while she's drunk around our son and I wont go in to her house at all. Do you think I should be putting more up?

 

[Resolute]

It is not what I think you "should" do. I am just observing that the parents who have been successful in this game are not in the habit of giving the other parent a taxi service. Instead, they make the other parent have to fight for every shred of progress made. Treating your ex like their is no problem, will make people think there is no problem.

If social services are concerned about video calls, how do you think they would feel about you two sharing a car?

If you are worried about allegations when you are not in contact with her, how do you feel about being in a private situation where she has a witness and you do not?

These are just considerations for you to take into account. You know best for your situation and you have done well so far.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

You are making sense Res, I've had these thoughts going over and over in my head for a while now. Its so stressful. On the one hand Im nice and be seen as not setting boundaries, on the other I act colder towards her which gives her sisters more ammunition to call me evil and talk her into making false allegations that she doesnt want to make. It really is a tough one for me.

 

[mva]

You are walking a tightrope . I would push for supervised visits in a contact centre. It’s too complicated with her sister involved. Until she accepts she has a serious drink problem , seeks help and shows months of rational behaviour & sobriety she is a risk of false allegations etc. I totally understand your motive for giving her a lift , but she only has to make a false allegation later on when drunk to the police and you are in defensive mode. You can’t help her get sober and less interaction the better.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Im actually getting really concerned now. I think Ive been too nice and things would have probably been easier by contact center.

As for the alcohol group the social worker informed me that they've talked to them and the alcohol people were really surprised at hearing the full story. Apparently the alcohol councillor was completely shocked by what the social worker told her. Don't know much more than that but this might possibly mean the alcohol people wont be falling for her make believe sob story any more. Possibly they've been filled in with a few more of the facts. Hopefully they will do the breath tests in a more random way now, popping round her house at random times to do one, rather than giving appointments where she can easily just not drink in the morning and take it easy the night before and pass

 

[Resolute]

In a way, the social workers are offering a version of the contact centre for the video calls.

There is no perfect solution here. If you go back to court with an emergency application, they will give you a new order. We cannot say if the new order will be better or worse.

Mum could argue that she has engaged with an alcohol service and there have been no issues during her time with the baby. The judge might go with mum and give her more, they might go with your evidence and write a more restrictive interim order. It will almost certainly be a short hearing, which means the judge is unlikely to consider all of the evidence carefully.

Going back to court, especially without full representation, is a bit like tossing a coin. Nobody can tell you which way it is going to land. I had a solicitor tell me my hearing would last 10 minutes and their was zero chance of me gaining anything. I attended by myself and increased my time from 5 days out of 14 (no overnights, in the community), to 6 out of 14. The hearing lasted over 3 hours. To all intents and purposes, I was in the same position as your ex at that point.

Engaging with a domestic abuse service, GP, or counsellor, about how you are feeling is important. Both for your wellbeing, and for when the court asks for disclosure.

If you decide to make an emergency application, there are lots of people on here who have been on the receiving end of these and will guide you on what worked.

If you decide to ride it out to your next hearing, try to have money aside to bring a direct access barrister. You can spend the time in between building on baby's "status quo" with you and preparing information/evidence for your pre-meet with the barrister.

If you ever feel that your baby is not safe with mum, you can withhold and deal with the legal situation from there. There is a process to follow on how you inform mum and grounds you can give, but this is an option if you feel there is an emergency.

Sorry for such a long post.

P.s. have you explored the possibility of legal aid? If there is a chance of getting this in place, that might be the best focus for now.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Im not really sure if this contact centre with video calls will go ahead, they are talking about needing to get funding for it so not sure if they will.

I think its best to carry on as is now rather than go back to court. I don't really see any danger as shes not drunk for the visits and even though I dont trust her sister I know she wouldn't let any harm come to our son.

As for the counselling I think I will be on one soon, just waiting for the referral to go through.

I will look into the direct access barrister. I was talking to a solicitor before. What's the benefits of a direct access barrister? Im assuming its cheaper than having both a solicitor and a barrister?

As for the legal aid, it may be a possibility. Hopefully in time for the next hearing. Will have to see how things play out over the coming weeks.

No need to apologise for the long post, its all very useful information. Sorry for taking so long to reply, life is so busy right now.

 

[Ash]

Yes it's cheaper than both a solicitor and barrister. Some people just use a solicitor and that can still work out more expensive than a direct access barrister. The main difference is - barristers are highly experienced at hearings and writing orders. Solicitors are more the admin people who write letters. Some solicitors would represent you at a hearing - but a barrister would do it much better. I find the vast majority of solicitors are a bit biased towards Mums so don't always fight your corner well at a hearing (generalisation there - I'm sure there are some who would).

With a direct access barrister you pay a one off fixed fee which includes them representing you at the hearing (and a chat before the hearing usually) and you send them your paperwork in advance. It's quite a high fee - but a solicitor charges by the hour and can run up a huge bill for doing very little at all. It's what happens at hearings that counts. There really isn't much paperwork to do yourself when using a direct access barrister - you can do a position statement yourself before a hearing (run it by the barrister - sometimes they will do a different one for you).

It's only when it comes to a final hearing it can be useful to have a solicitor on board. To exchange final statements and make sure they're both exchanged properly at the same time (so the other side doesn't get to see your statement first and change theirs). And to help write your final statement with evidence and/or prepare a bundle for the final hearing. But this isn't essential. And a barrister will advise on various things even though they won't do that kind of paperwork side.

Some people on here have done a "tailored" approach - do most of it yourself, use a direct access barrister for the hearing, and hire a solicitor for a one off job (eg exchange of final statements).

The hearings are the important things - that's where decisions are made and orders made. A barrister can win a case for you and persuade the Judge.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Ah that makes sense Ash. I had a solicitor just for an initial appointment. Was recommended by my sister (who is also a solicitor but not in family law unfortunately). She did say he was really good though.

Was thinking if I did manage to scrape together funding for them Id use them but they don't take legal aid so if I can get legal aid sorted out then it might be someone else.

The direct access barrister route sounds interesting and a lot cheaper than the figure quoted by them (3500-4500 for the solicitors then the barrister fees on top) just for the first hearing.

I do like the idea of the tailored approach that you mention. I think that would be the one Id be going down if I dont get legal aid.

If I do get legal aid though Im guessing a solicitor and a barrister would be the better option right?

 

[Ash]

Yes if you get legal aid it will help and you could go that route. As for the fees you were quoted. For a first hearing you could expect to pay £2000 plus VAT for a very good barrister. There are some who are cheaper but anyone who quotes £500 for a first hearing isn't worth paying for.

That fee would just be for reviewing any documents before the hearing, a brief chat on the morning of the hearing and representing you at the hearing. Sometimes they suggest a consultation first which can be another £1000. It depends on the circumstances as to whether a consultation is necessary (this is often before an application has gone in or if it's quite complex). However if you do have a consultation first, then you can deal with them by email quite regularly before the hearing and get the odd response to a question and discuss anything you want before the hearing. Otherwise - and it might sound strange - you just send them everything and have a brief chat on the morning of the hearing. They are highly expert at reading, retaining information and working out a strategy and will probably already know what they're going to say before you even meet them.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Well still waiting on the referral to the councillors which would help with the legal aid. They keep saying it but haven't heard anything yet other than them saying their filling out the forms for it.

Definately will try to get a direct access barrister if I dont get the legal aid. It does sound like the way forward

 

[Ash]

Would it be worth paying to see a private counsellor to get the legal aid application speeded up?