Strange Discussion with ex

[Concerned-Dad]

My ex had a meeting with an alcohol help group on Friday and shes phoned me drunk after telling me our baby is not mine and I need to get a dna test.

After some talking with her while drunk (she gives away alot drunk) I figured out that shes basically played down her drinking to the alcohol councillors. Did a breath test, passed it and claimed she didn't have a problem and just drank a few cans a day. Now every two weeks she will go there and do another breath test and talk to them again about how shes not drinking. Its easy enough for her to just not drink that day before the breath test. She can go a morning without a drink if she has to.

Anyway the councillors told her something which I think is pretty shady to be honest. They told her that she should make me take a DNA test, claiming that she slept with someone else. Even though I know the baby is mine. He is the spitting image of me, she says it, the midwifes said it, health visitor said it, social worker, friend, family all said it. Also I was working from home at the time of conception and with her every day, so unless a long lost twin brother who I didnt know about sneaked in and had sex with her while I slept, our baby is definitely mine 100%.

Anyway so now shes drunk texting telling me hes not mine and she says she contacted the police and they will take the baby until I can proove hes mine (my names on the birth certificate). Surely this is not possible. I really dont believe it is.

There is a court order in place saying the baby should stay with me and not go back to her. Surely this information from the alcohol councillors is total rubbish? Is there anyway she could force me to pay for a dna test? I will if I have to and know I will pass but seems a waste of time.

Also I have to take him to her sisters tomorrow for two hours supervised contact. I think she might possibly follow this advice and try to call the police to keep him when I go to pick him up. Is there anything I should do before hand such as inform the police, courts, social worker etc?

 

[Ash]

It sounds like she is going to try anything to get the baby back even though the court was clear that was not an option at the moment. She is trying to scare you but yes I would take every precaution possible. You have no idea what she's told this counsellor - it could be all kinds of made up stuff but sadly these people tend to feel sorry for a woman and believe their stories and even solicitors have been known to advise Mothers to accuse something to get legal aid (there's an article on here - confessions of an alienator - where a woman says the solicitor encouraged her).

So she is trying to throw a spanner in the works in the hope that by having to have a court ordered dna test, then it will cause lots of delays and meanwhile she can convince everyone she's sober. That doesn't change the fact that social services reported to the court and the court ordered the baby remain with you.

She's not being that clever about it really, but what she's trying to do is manipulate you and mess with your head - so you'll give the baby up.

I would also be concerned about the supervised contact. I am not sure about this but perhaps you could contact the Police, show them the court order and social services report and say you have concerns she may try to do something during the supervised contact and you want them to know all this information in case she phones them and tells them something that isn't true.

I can't see she would be stupid enough to try and abduct the baby as she could go to prison for that possibly. Do you trust her sister? If things become an issue at the first session or she won't give the baby back you would have to call the Police. They should help because you have a residency order. But if they won't (sometimes they say it's a civil matter) then you'd have to do an urgent same day application to get an order for the Police to go and get the baby. Worst case scenario.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

To be honest its not even her that's solely to blame here its the "professionals" that are supposed to be helping her with her drink problem. Its put it in her head and when she's got something in her head she has to have a few drinks to act on it.

She's taken that all back this morning and said she knows the baby's mine but is being advised to do it. She says she doesn't want to but then I guess she will have another drink and want to again. She did say when drunk that she called the police though. What they said I dont know.

As for what she's told the councillor Im not 100% sure but its probably a big sob story (like she's been telling her family) about how she only had a couple of weak cans and didn't tell them that she was waking up in the morning, not eating for days and downing spirits straight.

I don't even think she's going for a court ordered DNA test (although she may do in the future). The councillors seem to have told her the police will just take the baby based on her saying that.

As for her sister I used to get on with her but she's been turning against me a bit and doesn't really want to talk to me. (when messaging her about the contact she tells me to sort it out with my ex. I thought the whole point of supervised contact was that I should sort it with the sister rather than the ex (who said in court she doesn't want to talk to me))

I doubt her sister would try and hold back the baby though and as for my ex doubt she would too unless drunk. She wasn't drunk this morning and I think she may have gone back to sleep so dont think she will be drunk for the visit so should be ok.

As for the order all I have is the original prohibited steps order that was sent by the court. The emergency one. They havent sent the paperwork through for the other order yet. It took them a while for the first too. Im on hold on the phone now seeing if I can contact the court and get that sent through by email today hopefully.

I think I will follow your advice and contact the police after, just so they are aware if something does happen. I dont think it will but better they are aware.

As for an urgent same day application how would I go about that if I needed too? The visit finishes at 6 so the courts would be shut and then the baby would be left with her overnight. Or is there a quicker way?

 

[Scotay]

Find it hard to believe a councilor would tell her to make this story up to force a DNA test, unless she told them you weren't the dad. Sounds a BS story from a rambling drunk to be honest but if you feel she is turning up drunk you have a duty of care to ensure the safety of the child.

I hardy see supervised access controlled by her sister as being impartial here, I doubt the sister is on your side and would back her sister up 100%.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

It does sound strange but I really dont think she was drunk at the time they told her (if they did) as she has to do breathalysers and can go a morning without drinking.

Yes the sister thing is getting a bit frustrating. The sister isn't really being that cooperative to be honest when I ask her a question about the contacts. She tells me to ask my ex.

 

[Resolute]

If you have texts saying that she does not think you are the father and that she wants to take the baby, that feels like indication she does not accept the court order and does not intend to comply.

My ex used much less than this to 'suspend' time with me and the court did not bat an eyelid when we went back. She was not admonished to any degree.

I still think that a contact centre is more than justified in your case.

 

[Scotay]

My ex used much less than this to 'suspend' time with me and the court did not bat an eyelid when we went back. She was not admonished to any degree.

My ex the same, always the same excuse, "I have safe guarding concerns", could never explain what these concerns were and i assume she got that line of mumsnet just to frustrate.
Judges never found for these concerns and yet did nothing to sanction the lies.

 

[Resolute]

I don't think anybody will tell you: "you should" withhold your baby, you have to do what you think is right. But, lots of us know from experience that others have justified withholding on much flimsier grounds than you have.

 

[Scotay]

Why only a breathalyser test on the day she has to visit, its obviously not fit for purpose.
If there was ever a case for a hair strand test this is it?

 

[Resolute]

I agree with Scotay to an extent. Only thing is you need to be confident it would come up as "chronic excessive". If she is a binge drinker, it might come through as "social" drinking and work in her favour. In a case where there is clear indication that she has repeatedly been compromised by alcohol while child is in her care, that should say enough regardless of toxicology.

 

[Ash]

If the visit is due to end at 6pm and the baby has been witheld you'd have to call the Police and do an urgent same day application next day. The Police do have powers to say a child should be removed for up to 24 hours then the court has to take over. You'd really need that court order to show them though. If this does happen before you get the court order you'd just have to show the police the prohibited steps order and tell them the other order hasn't arrived but it stands from the day of the hearing (have the court hearing papers handy that showed the date of the hearing). Your Mum's notes might help too.

If the court accepted her sister as suitable for supervising then presumably that was accepted as ok at the time, but if the sister turns out to be unreliable then yes you might need to do an application to request supervised in a contact centre.

As you say it's unlikely the sister would allow her to withold the baby even if she isn't being particularly helpful. And she will know there's a court order.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Resolute, its a drunken thing. She sends these texts when drunk then goes back on them when sober. She literally is two different people. The sober one is a lovely one who could be a great mother, the drunk one is a monster. its like Jeckel and Hyde.

Scotay, the breathalyser tests are ridiculous. I really want a hairstrand test done but nothing was ordered at court. Just got the date through today for the FHDRA and its not until the end of March next year. That might be too late for a hairstrand test for the period where she was drinking in charge of the baby wouldn't it? Is there no way one can get ordered sooner?

Resolute, Im 100 percent sure it would come up as chronic drinker if taken now. She does seem to have cut down a bit with the morning drinking and has been (well sounded) sober a few times Ive talked to her in the evenings lately Although is still having regular binges. She is cutting down now, if she will be able to sustain it or not I dont know but the longer it takes for a hair strand test the more likely that the episodes when she was in charge of our baby will be missed.

Ash the court order came today, before I left for the visit so I just had time to print it out. I was on the phone to the court earlier and they were saying it could take up to 10 days this morning but it came by the end of the working day. Possibly my call made them rush it through but when I phoned they just gave me the 10 working days line so it was a pleasant suprise.

As for the sister well she's just telling me to sort things out with my ex regarding contact, she really is turning out to be less reliable than I thought.

Anyway the visit went ok today and she gave the baby back without incident, I asked her again about the dna thing and she said she was being stupid and regretted saying it. Again regrets everything when she sobers up.

 

[Resolute]

Standard hair strand test covers 6 months going back from about 2 weeks before the sample is taken. A peth test covers 30 days prior to test date and is more accurate. Peth result picks up better on a recent heavy drinking episode, hair strand gives average over a long period. There are ways of breaking down hair strand into periods, but they are not used widely.

It is not unheard of for a parent to record the other parent if they turn up or call when under the influence. It is also possible to have a monitor which picks up on alcohol consumption in real time, I'm not sure how widely these are used in family courts.

If you are not comfortable with the current arrangement, emergency application for contact centre and testing order is an option.

Chronic excessive is quite a lot of drinking to keep up, and females have an advantage. 7.5 units a day for a 15 stone 6'1" inch guy might not be enough to be overly intoxicated. If you are 9 stone and 5'5", that is enough to make a difference. She would need to be consistently drinking: 5-6 bottles of wine a week, or a couple of bottles of spirits, or about 25 cans of beer.

 

[Ash]

Good it went ok today. Maybe they didn't order a hair strand test because there is so much evidence already? With the social services report etc. Are social services working with her at all? Sometimes they recommend a course of some kind.

I think you need to take everything she says with a pinch of salt - especially when drunk. It may not be someone on the alcohol course that said that to her, it may have been a friend, another counsellor she saw, or someone on Mumsnet - and she just elaborated.

 

[Ash]

Also, from the sound of it, an alcohol course once a week probably wouldn't be enough. It sounds like she needs to be in rehab for a few weeks.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

Resolute if its taken end of March the 6 months might just be ok but it might be too late. Not heard of a peth test. Thought it was just hair blood and urine that was tested.

As for recordings Ive got plenty of recorded phone calls of her drunk. Not sure how good these would be for court they as I heard they can be funny with recordings.

So far the contact is ok, I would prefer to not have her going to a contact centre but it may become a necessity. As for an emergency application for testing order how would that be done?

As for the Chronic drinking she was regularly drinking a bottle of spirits a day, had three bottles of wine one day and on a good day shed have maybe 4 beers at a minimum. She has got better now but she is definitely drinking over those amounts you mention. All those figures I mention are without much food, maybe a slice of toast or a packet of crisps a day and every few days shed have half a cooked dinner. Im pretty much 100% sure that back then she would have easily been found to be Chronic drinking and even now the same.

Ash, yes the social services are working with her, she has two kids from a previous relationship that they have been involved with for years. There were concerns about her drinking there and domestic violence from her ex. I think they recommended the course she's on. Or it could be the gp that recommended it, Im not 100% sure.

Your right though I do take everything with a pinch of salt, its often hard to make sense of her these days.

And yes rehab is definatly needed and what I was hoping she would do followed by regular counselling after. I think shes playing down the drinking though which is why the drink councillors arent really taking her seriously. Think she sees it as a way of "prooving" shes not drinking by turning up for a breathalyser every couple of weeks sober. This is why I think the hair strand test would be so useful in this case.

 

[Resolute]

"As for an emergency application for testing order how would that be done?"

You could make an urgent application based on a belief that your baby is not safe with her away from independent supervision. State that you have evidence she continues to drink erratically and that you do not have confidence in the supervision arrangement. You want her to play an active part in her child's life but that she is not fit to do so until she is showing clear alcohol tests. Her erratic behaviour has included threats to breach the order and contrive to remove child based on an irrational denial of your status as father. As I said previously, plenty of members here have been subject to successful moves of this kind in much less drastic situations.

If the application was prepared correctly it could well achieve contact-centre pending alcohol test results.

I am not saying this is what you should do.

Is your case going back to the same judge? If it is, there could be an advantage to letting matters take their course. The judge might already have made a decision based on what happened last time. Tests may be an unnecessary complication. I suppose it is down to your gut feeling on risks associated with current arrangement.

The test, if ordered in March, might not be done until several weeks later.

P.s. you could let her know at point of application that you are suspending her time with pending the court's decision.

 

[Ash]

You need to keep records about all this - maybe start keeping a diary of what she does and says when. In that, note down the time and duration of the phone call and keep any texts. If you need to raise some of these issues at any point, it looks more authentic if you can state the date and time she said something in a phone call, rather than just generalise - and it also shows a pattern/timeline. X date she said this. X date this happened. Etc.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

"You could make an urgent application based on a belief that your baby is not safe with her away from independent supervision. State that you have evidence she continues to drink erratically and that you do not have confidence in the supervision arrangement. You want her to play an active part in her child's life but that she is not fit to do so until she is showing clear alcohol tests. Her erratic behaviour has included threats to breach the order and contrive to remove child based on an irrational denial of your status as father. As I said previously, plenty of members here have been subject to successful moves of this kind in much less drastic situations."

Sorry for the late reply, its been a stressful week with even more erratic behaviour from the ex including social workers putting there foots down and more crazy messages from her.. Will update you guys on that at some point today hopefully. Its been 100 miles an hour.


"If the application was prepared correctly it could well achieve contact-centre pending alcohol test results."

I'm really thinking that this should be an option now. When you say pending alcohol test results would this be the actual hair strand test or one of the others that don't measure as long a period? I really want to get this Hair strand test done asap. Could I offer to pay for it myself possibly? I talked to the social worker about the hair strand tests too. She said that she would talk to her manager but its not something they regularly do due to the costs. Maybe I could offer the social workers to pay for it?


'Is your case going back to the same judge? If it is, there could be an advantage to letting matters take their course. The judge might already have made a decision based on what happened last time. Tests may be an unnecessary complication. I suppose it is down to your gut feeling on risks associated with current arrangement.'

To be honest Im not really sure there is a risk of harm to him while at the sisters if the sister is there. But thats not to say I dont think my ex will turn up at her sisters half drunk. Maybe not at the point where shes falling all over the place but it wouldnt suprise me if shes drunk.

'The test, if ordered in March, might not be done until several weeks later.'

Yeah that is cutting it fine to show what she was drinking during late pregnancy and after the birth.

 

[Concerned-Dad]

"You need to keep records about all this - maybe start keeping a diary of what she does and says when. In that, note down the time and duration of the phone call and keep any texts. If you need to raise some of these issues at any point, it looks more authentic if you can state the date and time she said something in a phone call, rather than just generalise - and it also shows a pattern/timeline. X date she said this. X date this happened. Etc."

I do have a lot of records with dates times etc but they could be more though. That's another thing on the to do list is to go back over old phone calls, texts, whats app messages etc and put that all together.

Ive also got a lot of recorded calls so can go over them and get more dates and times. Its a lot of work though which I just haven't had the time for yet in between all the visits from professionals,, baby classes and activities and the looking after of my son. I do need to get more organised in the coming weeks though and start typing this all up, maybe adding screenshots etc into one big document.