solicitors

[Ash]

It's a really tough time. Could you phone family regularly? I agree, that Cafcass saying "conflict between parents" isn't a good thing - because both have made allegations. And sadly that;s what happens if it's the ex that's the abusive one but abusers make false allegations and all Cafcass see is parents accusing each other. However they do need to look into things - but it seems they decided there were no welfare issues after looking into things with social services. So if it says - no welfare issues it's basically - sort it out between you or the court will decide - and if it comes to conflict Cafcass tend to give the kids to one parent and some time with the other. And invariably they give them to the Mother. In a way your situation probably has them quite flummoxed if your daughter refuses to live with her Mother. But the next hearing will iron things out a bit.

So what your really need to be preparing for is - what you want to do by the next hearing and what to ask for. It sounds like, at the last hearing, lawyers managed to broker an agreement temporarily and basically said it will cost a lot and go on for a long time if you don't agree. It kind of goes against the grain though to agree with someone you think is a risk around your children.

So it's one step at a time really. You can't think everything all at once. By the time the hearing comes up you might be clearer about how to proceed. But just take one day at a time at the moment as you have all the emotional stuff going on as well.

Having said all that if the lawyers brokered a 50/50 agreement (ie both kids living 50/50 with both of you) you should probably take it. And be prepared to contact social services if you think there is a big issue. They will only be away from you half the week, and in school every day (other than week-ends or holidays) so people will be keeping an eye on things. And then things could change later,.

It does sound though, as if, if your daughter is adamant she wants to live with you, to everyone, that your ex will use your son as leverage and I don't think they;d do a residency order for one kid and 50/50 for the other (but I might be wrong).

The important thing at the end of this is - having an order that the ex has to follow so you know you won't lose the kids and can keep an eye on them. And the slightest blip and get social services involved.

There are things still to happen I think aren't there? Re social services - and that may enlighten things. Lawyers give you facts - re the legal process and outcomes - they're not really going to fix everything. Some is then just negotiating each issue as it arises, after a court order made.

Things may happen along the way that tip it one way or the other as well. Your ex may behave perfectly during the process - or she may not be able to help behaving as she did before and then things become clearer.

As for seeing her and her Dad at school every day - you can do something about that. Ask the school for a different pick up time. Eg your daughter could go for a half hour after school club or something - or they may arrange a pick up from a different entrance. so you could speak to school about that. That's fine. In the future it won't be an issue probably as you'll be picking up on different days.

Ideally both kids would live with both parents half the time. And you'd pick up on different days - as long as it's safe and your daughter is ok with it.

 

[Ash]

Posted at the same time as the last two posts You have suppport on here. It's not like real friends to go and see for a chat, but it's something. Maybe make some new ones? Join a night class yourself or something? A distraction from it all. Start some new activity at week-ends with your daughter and meet other parents (different from school ones) or other Dads. Actually that can feel weird if they're couples so maybe not. An activity that mainly only men take their kids to maybe (thinking!).

 

[Ash]

Believe me I scream and cry a lot, try not to in front of my daughter though
I am getting support through counselling but it's a slow process
Gp gave me anti depressants but I haven't used them.
I really don't know how much more I can take, I feel numb, I know she will string this out as long as it takes for me to give in or court decides what happens, she's a bad person. I just feel so weak and down, I'm so close to just packing up and going home, I need to forget that life I had and concentrate on me, she'll always let me see the kids I think but it would be under her control

Ok so you're sounding rock bottom at the moment. You'll see your son tonight - it's a hurdle if you have to see her or the house at pick up and I'm guessing there's no one can go with you? If no family around? Take it one day at a time and don't think ahead too much. Life gets better, believe me - just right now you're in a pile of shit but it will get better and you'll enjoy life again.

School holidays in October - maybe you can get away to see family then? Have a break and a change of scene and some support. And if helps recharge batteris. Difficult if you can't take both kids with you though.

 

[Ash]

Next time you see the counsellor ask for some kind of technique for handling certain situations. All I can think of off the top of my head is kind of learn to detach in the moment. So the moment you see something that gets to you - ex at school, old house. Consciously detach from that moment and think about a particular other thing. Prepare for that in advance. Decide what particular thing you're going to think about - maybe something reassuring or funny that's nothing to do with the relationship and only abougt you - like your Dad's garden or his first car, or the best goal you ever saw in a football match. Make that your "place to go" in the moment. It can soon be an easy habit to develop so you don't get overwhelmed and then you know you have a coping strategy, it works and you don't feel so apprehensive about these moments.

But also practical things like - speak to the school about different pick up times.

 

[Ash]

Thanks, what is a compromise? We try to agree things then court signs it off?

A compromise is a deal that lawyers thrash out. And try and get both parties to agree to. they use all kinds of leverage and techniques with each other to get the other side to agree. This can be best actually done at court (as happened last time) to avoid too much stringing along by solicitors not agreeing on paper. So you could say to your barrister I'm thinking we should try and negotiate a consent order for 50/50 with very clear wording that it's exactly 50/50 for both kids with both parents with no more than 5 days apart from each parent during term time. And they will probably achieve it. That means it goes no further than the next hearing. A consent order is done on the day at court (the hour or two before the actual hearing usually). But - if agreement can't be reached then - it progresses - either to final hearing or fact find or whatever.

That's an easy option to not be involved in court processes for a long time. And it's kind of what your barrister was saying last time. Or you could say you want them to try and negotiate an agreement whereby your daughter lives with you and spends time with her mother 4 nights a fortnight or whatever, and your son lives with you both 50/50 with the same week-ends going back and forth together with your daughter. They might not be able to achieve that if the other side insist on 50/50 for both - but you might.

If you did have a 50/50 order you could give your daughter a safe word and measures in case anything ever gets bad. You'd already have a residence order by then (both of you would) so if it came to an emergency and you had to keep the kids, you wouldn't be accused of abduction - they already live with you.

The other way to do a consent order is before court, solicitors negotiating, letters back and forth - trying to agree a) what it will be in an order and b) what the actual wording will say. IME this can run up a lot of bills and might end up with no agreement, so probably better to try and get agreement brokered actually at the next hearing, on the day, with laywers thrashing it out.

Having said all that if you feel really strongly about a fact find needed re ex then stick out the process - to try and prove she is unsafe. But you may not have any say in the matter. The court might decide no - no fact find is necessary and dismiss all allegations (because the Cafcass letter says no welfare issues, just conflict between parents). The danger of pushing ahead with a fact find is, if they still decide there are no welfare issues with your ex Cafcass will decide you are a hostile parent and the conflict is bad for the kids and give residency to Mum and aminimal order for time with you. So the kids aren't caught in the middle and the parents rarely have much to do with each other. I don't think that's a good idea as she sounds like the type to mess about with you seeing the kids if she had sole residency.

So 50/50 is a compromise because a) it makes you both equal in terms of residency (neither is fighting for sole "custody" as it used to be called) b) it prevents the Mother having sole residency so she can't pull rank and call all the shots etc. c) the kids get time with both parents and hopefully things settle down. It could be that both you and your ex have very different lives once the relationship is over and both find more happiness. Yes maybe she does have a high conflict personality, but as long as there is no actual danger, your kids will learn to negotiate her - and know you're there if there's a problem. And you keep an eye on things.

With negotiating you need a bottom line. You could go for - daughter lives with me, sees Mum every other week-end and one night a week after school plus 2 weeks holiday with Mum per year. Son lives with both 50/50 - kids changeover together at week-ends. Or it could be one week on, one week off with each parent (but you might not want them away for a full week).

Then your bottom line for negotiation would be - 50/50 for both.

Having said all that - you don't have to compromise. You can stick to what you think is right for the kids. They more or less decided themselves didn't they. Daughter wanted to be with you and only see Mum occasionally - son wasn't sure and wants to see both. So you could just stick to your guns as to kids wishes and see what happens.

You probably feel like running away right now - or going back to family? Well just getting away for a week-end or a few days can curb that feeling. So you get away for a bit (even a day out at a distance at week-ends helps) and come back for a bit - and then you can think clearer.

 

[Ash]

Just to throw a wild card in - have you heard of "birdnesting" parenting? It's where the kids live in one home all the time and the parents move in and out. So it could be week on, week off. One week you live there with them then leave at the end of the week to go to your own pad somewhere. And ex moves in for a week then moves out and goes and stays somewhere else (family or whatever). Sounds a complete nightmare to me! And thinking about it, probably wouldn't work in your situation - there needs to be a lot of trust and things fairly amicable I guess.

 

[SJP]

Just to throw a wild card in - have you heard of "birdnesting" parenting? It's where the kids live in one home all the time and the parents move in and out. So it could be week on, week off. One week you live there with them then leave at the end of the week to go to your own pad somewhere. And ex moves in for a week then moves out and goes and stays somewhere else (family or whatever). Sounds a complete nightmare to me! And thinking about it, probably wouldn't work in your situation - there needs to be a lot of trust and things fairly amicable I guess.

Thanks for all of that ash, I usually do have Family with me but this week 2 of them have had covid so had to stay away, I'm just on my way to get both kids from school so I'll reply to everything tomorrow when I'm on my own, thanks again for everything

 

[SJP]

Thanks for all of that ash, I usually do have Family with me but this week 2 of them have had covid so had to stay away, I'm just on my way to get both kids from school so I'll reply to everything tomorrow when I'm on my own, thanks again for everything

So just a quick one, my boy as expected is crying saying he doesn't want to go back to her today, I've only had him since school yesterday and has to be back at 12 today, haven't seen him for 2 months, he is saying it isn't fair mam said he only stays 1 night and he wants to stay with me until he wants to see her again, he knows it's been a long time since he seen me, what do I say to him? I know what I'd like to say but I can't, I don't want him to think I don't want him but obviously I can't blame her either, it's heart breaking, he isn't the same little boy he was 2 months ago, he's quite argumentative now and he never was before

 

[Ash]

Heart breaking. You need to just reassure him that you are getting some people to help sort things out so things can be better in the long term but for now you can look forward to seeing each other once a week and making it special.

It’s really important not to let the kids feel in the middle and let them know things are being sorted out. Although you’re not supposed to mention “court orders” to them your ex might now - she might say - not my decision it’s the courts decision. Which is why it’s important you say to him - I’m getting some people to help sort things out.

Also email the school v briefly and formally along the lines of

“As you know Mrs X and I have separated and this is having an effect on the children. Currently there is a temporary order whereby X lives with me and Y lives with his Mother and sees me one night a week on Fridays until 12 noon Saturday. Y is becoming quite distressed and I ask the school to offer any support they can to him during this difficult time and let me know if you have any concerns please.”

It’s important to keep things in writing for a paper trail in case you need any evidence in future. Plus the school have a duty of responsibility if you highlight he needs support . During a court case you’re not allowed to arrange private counselling as it is seen that it could influence the child. But the school can organise counselling.

 

[Ash]

At the upcoming hearing you need to ask for an interim order for a full 3 night week end a fortnight and a midweek overnight . Your ex won’t agree as she will want the same with your daughter. You could agree to a full day a week supervised perhaps. I am not sure if they will make an interim order unless parents can reach agreement. Which is why you managed to get interim time last time. Because the lawyers managed to thrash out an agreement for some time. Which I guess is better than nothing. I might be wrong there - the court might be able to make an interim order without agreement as Cafcass have said no welfare issues. But that’s where info like - school has arranged counselling for Y - could be helpful.

 

[Ash]

It’s really important you reassure him things are getting sorted out because at that age he will think it’s his fault or that he is worthless or something because he is in this situation. They don’t have the emotional maturity to understand adult issues. And also so he knows you’re trying to help so he doesn’t feel abandoned.

 

[Ash]

He’s aggressive because he’s probably feeling conflicted - kids usually have an inbuilt loyalty to both parents (even abusive parebts). And stress as well.

 

[Kyle]

I hope the handover wasn't too difficult for you this afternoon. It's gut wrenching when they get upset over these situations. I would attempt to extinguish his anxiety with as much positivity as possible by reminding him that he's going to be seeing you regularly and you can make plans to look forward too. Just remind him that you are there and that you love him and you are working hard behind the scenes to make things better. But certainly try to maneuver his thoughts from the upsetting negative situation you're both in and focus on the positives which is what you can do together when you are together.

My CAFCASS safeguarding letter contained a sobering statement as advice to the court in the defence of my efforts that read: "children often blame themselves when they are unable to see a parent, believing that they have done something wrong or even thinking that a parent has passed away!"

You have no idea how much those words affected me. So yes, plenty of positive reinforcement that reminds him that none of this is his fault. You are very much there for him. Focus on the future because, as much as this hurts now. It will not be forever. And this is something we also need to remind ourselves as dads going through this torment. It's important you find away to heal from days like today as I can imagine what you're feeling right now. Don't bottle anything up. Let it out. Recover. Move onto tomorrow. Keep moving forward. Try and find something enjoyable to do as a distraction until you can plan the next pick-up.

My son's school was the only contact I had at the start and they were brilliant at working with me to look after him and keep me informed of his feelings and behaviour.

I'm sure once the weekly time starts to bed in he will feel better and be more settled.

 

[SJP]

Heart breaking. You need to just reassure him that you are getting some people to help sort things out so things can be better in the long term but for now you can look forward to seeing each other once a week and making it special.

It’s really important not to let the kids feel in the middle and let them know things are being sorted out. Although you’re not supposed to mention “court orders” to them your ex might now - she might say - not my decision it’s the courts decision. Which is why it’s important you say to him - I’m getting some people to help sort things out.

Also email the school v briefly and formally along the lines of

“As you know Mrs X and I have separated and this is having an effect on the children. Currently there is a temporary order whereby X lives with me and Y lives with his Mother and sees me one night a week on Fridays until 12 noon Saturday. Y is becoming quite distressed and I ask the school to offer any support they can to him during this difficult time and let me know if you have any concerns please.”

It’s important to keep things in writing for a paper trail in case you need any evidence in future. Plus the school have a duty of responsibility if you highlight he needs support . During a court case you’re not allowed to arrange private counselling as it is seen that it could influence the child. But the school can organise counselling.

yeah thats what i told him, he made a comment just before we left to take him back about my house, i told him that this was also his home aswell and he said "and mams sometimes" she used to stay here quite often and i would stay at her house before we split for good, i think he thinks that thats still going to happen,
the school already have both kids seeing their wlfare officer every friday as they already knew about my daughters concerns but arranged for son to see her aswell once they knew what was going on, theyve been great to be fair. theyve even called ss twice with their own concerns about the holiday and mothers drinking.

 

[SJP]

At the upcoming hearing you need to ask for an interim order for a full 3 night week end a fortnight and a midweek overnight . Your ex won’t agree as she will want the same with your daughter. You could agree to a full day a week supervised perhaps. I am not sure if they will make an interim order unless parents can reach agreement. Which is why you managed to get interim time last time. Because the lawyers managed to thrash out an agreement for some time. Which I guess is better than nothing. I might be wrong there - the court might be able to make an interim order without agreement as Cafcass have said no welfare issues. But that’s where info like - school has arranged counselling for Y - could be helpful.

im going to do that, this coming hearing should have been dealt with by now but the holiday was her priority so its been pushed back, not sure if he can wait 2 full weeks to see me so a day through the week would help a lot. she point blank refused to extend my time with my son but ive just had a call off my daughter saying theyre going to be late back as they are at a bowling alley and haave just ordered food, even now still controlling everything

 

[SJP]

He’s aggressive because he’s probably feeling conflicted - kids usually have an inbuilt loyalty to both parents (even abusive parebts). And stress as well.

ive never seen him like this before, and i didnt like it, he was the most gentle loving little boy but that just knocked me for 6, hopefully it will settle down once he knows im still here

 

[SJP]

I hope the handover wasn't too difficult for you this afternoon. It's gut wrenching when they get upset over these situations. I would attempt to extinguish his anxiety with as much positivity as possible by reminding him that he's going to be seeing you regularly and you can make plans to look forward too. Just remind him that you are there and that you love him and you are working hard behind the scenes to make things better. But certainly try to maneuver his thoughts from the upsetting negative situation you're both in and focus on the positives which is what you can do together when you are together.

My CAFCASS safeguarding letter contained a sobering statement as advice to the court in the defence of my efforts that read: "children often blame themselves when they are unable to see a parent, believing that they have done something wrong or even thinking that a parent has passed away!"

You have no idea how much those words affected me. So yes, plenty of positive reinforcement that reminds him that none of this is his fault. You are very much there for him. Focus on the future because, as much as this hurts now. It will not be forever. And this is something we also need to remind ourselves as dads going through this torment. It's important you find away to heal from days like today as I can imagine what you're feeling right now. Don't bottle anything up. Let it out. Recover. Move onto tomorrow. Keep moving forward. Try and find something enjoyable to do as a distraction until you can plan the next pick-up.

My son's school was the only contact I had at the start and they were brilliant at working with me to look after him and keep me informed of his feelings and behaviour.

I'm sure once the weekly time starts to bed in he will feel better and be more settled.

it wasnt too bad, as much as i didnt want to be there she wasnt stood waiting for him so they just went in themselves, i have told him that im always going to see him so he doesnt need to worry about that, im sure he thought i wasnt going to see him again as i was being told he diddnt want to see me but i knew he did, hes never gone more than a couple of days without me until now.
im sure my cafcass report said somethig similar aswell, i need to memorise it really but its just hard to look at without getting angry with all the bullshit allegations she made about me.
im really struggling with things to do for myself, my counsellor asked me what i enjoy doing and i had to say i have no idea, thatts what being in a controlling abusive marriage does to you, i couldnt have friends, all my life was was looking after the kids, work, and picking up the pieces after her benders, it gets to a point when you dont know who you are any more. its so hard to recover from

 

[Ash]

Has your daughter been brought back? The recitals were for 3 hours. If she hasn’t kept to that you need to make a diary note saying what time your daughter was returned.

Your ex is doing a typical alienator thing of getting your daughter to contact you to say she’ll be late back. That needs to stop . If she won’t communicate with you directly then she either needs to comply with the arrangements to the letter or get her solicitor to communicate with you.

It’s pure manipulation to get your daughter to text saying they’ll be late back (if it actually was your daughter sending the text).

And of course she will be trying to win them over and tempt them with treats etc.

Your ex sounds childish - she was probably saying your son didn’t want to see you to get at you - because your daughter didn’t want to see her (for good reason by the sound of it).

She will of course by trying to persuade them to say they want to live with her and be together.

 

[Ash]

After this week end, if your daughter was not returned in time, a solicitor letter needs to be sent saying the Mother did not comply with the agreed times in the order and that any changes or flexibility to the times needs to be agreed between solicitors in advance. And it is noted that the Mother is not reliable in keeping to agreed times, and was not flexible about allowing additional time for your son.

 

[Ash]

Possibly! Or you could just write all that down and save it as an argument for them to use in court. But if the Mother doesn’t return in time I think something needs to be said rather than let it slide. It’s not a breach as the time isn’t ordered - it’s in recitals. But she is still supposed to keep to written agreements in a court order. In a way it is a breach - it’s a breach of the recitals.