section 7 result

[Ash]

I've also had second thoughts on Newcastle's case (after hearing a bit more privately). His ex is unlikely to follow any court orders. A fact find could get the allegations dismissed and possibly PA found. So maybe it is something to go for in this case.

 

[Resolute]

Perhaps, especially if money is there for good and continuous representation. A FFH is likely to cost more than the FH.

 

[Chi22]

I've also had second thoughts on Newcastle's case (after hearing a bit more privately). His ex is unlikely to follow any court orders. A fact find could get the allegations dismissed and possibly PA found. So maybe it is something to go for in this case.

I think this gets to the heart of the issues Ash.

Firstly, where an ex wants to exclude the other parent it doesn't help to have allegations hanging about. At the *very least* the court needs to make a decision as to whether it needs to hear these allegations.

The second issue is one of mother's previous and likely future conduct. It is very likely to have been alienation - achieved in part by allegation - and if as you say she will never adhere to orders then a FFH could help in exactly the way you say: shutting down allegations, possibly establishing alienation and (I would add) emotionally harming the children. A positive result from that would put Newcastle in the best position to ask for what he wants.

A rolled-up FFH and Final Hearing all in one may be the way to go.

 

[Peanut 21]

clear evidence of parental alienation

Result!!!!

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

I played the cafcass officer a video , of one of her children upset as her mother had told her she had cancer ( a lie), she is a person who lives to play and act the victim. If I don't get the allegations looked at and dismissed, then they will continue and over time, allegation merges and is regarded as fact.

From a point of law. Surely, if inferences and decisions are based on allegations, then I must have the right to have them heard and tested in court ?

As the allegations are false, she has no evidence at all except what she says ( which will completely contract the factual evidence that I can provide) , so a barrister would have no trouble dismantling her claims. She has never had to face having her lies questioned, so I would imagine her council will be trying everything they can to prevent a fact find.

I've not used any solicitor or anything yet, I've saved my funds for just this - a fact find and I'll engage a barrister.

One question, when you engage a barrister for a hearing and the hearing is adjourned (another tactic she will use, claiming to be ill or something), do you have to pay for that time, or does the barrister allow you to change dates for the hearing on a new date ?

 

[Resolute]

I have had a DAB portal tell me money is non-refundable over the phone. Their terms said that it is refundable up to a certain point before the date, a week I think. One of the members on here told me in private that their barrister said funds can be transferred to next date on condition there is 2 days notice of adjournment.

I do not think there is a one size fits all answer.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

I have had a DAB portal tell me money is non-refundable over the phone. Their terms said that it is refundable up to a certain point before the date, a week I think. One of the members on here told me in private that their barrister said funds can be transferred to next date on condition there is 2 days notice of adjournment.

I do not think there is a one size fits all answer.

my ex cancels everything at the last minute, she will mess about as much as she can.

will a court proceed, if the other party fails to attend ? how do courts deal with irregular attenders or last minute cancellations. My ex tried to get the last hearing adjourned as her solicitor didn't turn up.

 

[Peanut 21]

From a point of law. Surely, if inferences and decisions are based on allegations, then I must have the right to have them heard and tested in court ?

I absolutely understand your reasonings here.
But family court is different to criminal court. It's not the same as the 'laws' and rules are different.
Your ex hasn't technically broken any laws by lying unfortunately.
In family court they know people lie and exaggerate as it's an emotional situation.
Family court is first and foremost there for the children.
They couldn't give a monkeys about any wrongdoing towards the adults.
You should have a right to be vindicated but the professionals involved aren't there for the adults.
My partners ex blatantly lied in court a few times. No-one cared.
The hope is in your situation is that they all know the ex is lying and it helps build your case.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

I absolutely understand your reasonings here.
But family court is different to criminal court. It's not the same as the 'laws' and rules are different.
Your ex hasn't technically broken any laws by lying unfortunately.
In family court they know people lie and exaggerate as it's an emotional situation.
Family court is first and foremost there for the children.
They couldn't give a monkeys about any wrongdoing towards the adults.
You should have a right to be vindicated but the professionals involved aren't there for the adults.
My partners ex blatantly lied in court a few times. No-one cared.
The hope is in your situation is that they all know the ex is lying and it helps build your case.

if the ex doesnt want one and I do - how does the judge decide ? Surely if one party wants a FF , then it should go ahead if there are valid reasons.

 

[Emperor]

I played the cafcass officer a video , of one of her children upset as her mother had told her she had cancer ( a lie), she is a person who lives to play and act the victim. If I don't get the allegations looked at and dismissed, then they will continue and over time, allegation merges and is regarded as fact.

From a point of law. Surely, if inferences and decisions are based on allegations, then I must have the right to have them heard and tested in court ?

As the allegations are false, she has no evidence at all except what she says ( which will completely contract the factual evidence that I can provide) , so a barrister would have no trouble dismantling her claims. She has never had to face having her lies questioned, so I would imagine her council will be trying everything they can to prevent a fact find.

I've not used any solicitor or anything yet, I've saved my funds for just this - a fact find and I'll engage a barrister.

One question, when you engage a barrister for a hearing and the hearing is adjourned (another tactic she will use, claiming to be ill or something), do you have to pay for that time, or does the barrister allow you to change dates for the hearing on a new date ?

Hi, you should also be careful how you handle video evidence and how you got the evidence.. It can be used against you. Please see this example..
"In a case in 2016 (M v F [2016] EWFC 29), the Family Court found that: “It would almost always be wrong for a recording device to be placed on a child for the purpose of gathering evidence in family proceedings, whether or not the child was aware of its presence”. In that case, the answer may have seemed obvious—the father in question had sewn a recording device into a child’s clothing and recorded her from the beginning to the end of the school day. In those circumstances it is not at all surprising that the court found that the father was not capable of meeting his daughter’s emotional needs, having undermined her trust by recording all sorts of aspects of her life without her consent."

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

Hi, you should also be careful how you handle video evidence and how you got the evidence.. It can be used against you. Please see this example..
"In a case in 2016 (M v F [2016] EWFC 29), the Family Court found that: “It would almost always be wrong for a recording device to be placed on a child for the purpose of gathering evidence in family proceedings, whether or not the child was aware of its presence”. In that case, the answer may have seemed obvious—the father in question had sewn a recording device into a child’s clothing and recorded her from the beginning to the end of the school day. In those circumstances it is not at all surprising that the court found that the father was not capable of meeting his daughter’s emotional needs, having undermined her trust by recording all sorts of aspects of her life without her consent."

The ex sent it to me, and probably hadn't properly looked at it !! LOL

 

[Peanut 21]

What is a fact-finding hearing? - Family Law Partners

Fact-Finding Hearings are essentially a ‘mini-trial’ in the case. The Court must consider the allegations (and evidence in support) by one, or both, parties. The allegations are put to the court, to decide whether, in their view, the incidents did or did not happen. The standard of proof is ‘on...

www.familylawpartners.co.uk

I think it's up to the judge to decide if a FFH is needed. The main reason is to determine if it's in the child's best interests.

 

[Emperor]

The ex sent it to me, and probably hadn't properly looked at it !! LOL

Fair enough if she sent it to you and it was not a covert recording.
Another question that might be asked is, why would she send u a clip to implicate her self? The context will also have strong importance. What did u say to her before she made that video, or what happened before. Am sure you will be prepared for questions that might follow.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

Fair enough if she sent it to you and it was not a covert recording.
Another question that might be asked is, why would she send u a clip to implicate her self? The context will also have strong importance. What did u say to her before she made that video, or what happened before. Am sure you will be prepared for questions that might follow.

The video is very interesting, and damning , but I'm not going to elaborate on here.

As a fact find must be relevant to child arrangements, I'm again, very lucky. The section 7 report made coded references to child care -domestic abuse allegations - leaving the door open for me to argue that a fact find is essential, and I will even go as far as to say that, that was the intention of the cafcass officer. The more I read the report the more I see it as unusually helpful and positive.

 

[Resolute]

The trick that was used against me may be appropriate to your situation.

There were a load of allegations against me. I've never gone into full details on here, but you'll get an idea from other posts.

My ex had Family Law Act applications in play alongside her Child Arrangement application.

She was going for FFH but then, in regard to FLA apps, offered to 'adjourn with liberty to restore.' I refused. My mind was in a similar place to yours, I did not want to progress without putting the nonsense aside.

We had a 1/2 day hearing, 'interim determination on evidence.' FFH was judged to be unnecessary. As my ex was applicant, the order was written up as follows:

FLA applications are adjourned with liberty to restore, but are consolidated with CA proceedings under [case #]. Evidence in one to stand as evidence in the other.

Judge saved me to a degree, he said FLA apps will stand dismissed if not restored before end of CA proceedings.

All the same, this meant my final hearing for the child arrangement order was swamped with half-arsed allegations.

In short, they got the benefit of a compound final hearing. Without listing for 2-4 days.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

The trick that was used against me may be appropriate to your situation.

There were a load of allegations against me. I've never gone into full details on here, but you'll get an idea from other posts.

My ex had Family Law Act applications in play alongside her Child Arrangement application.

She was going for FFH but then, in regard to FLA apps, offered to 'adjourn with liberty to restore.' I refused. My mind was in a similar place to yours, I did not want to progress without putting the nonsense aside.

We had a 1/2 day hearing, 'interim determination on evidence.' FFH was judged to be unnecessary. As my ex was applicant, the order was written up as follows:

FLA applications are adjourned with liberty to restore, but are consolidated with CA proceedings under [case #]. Evidence in one to stand as evidence in the other.

Judge saved me to a degree, he said FLA apps will stand dismissed if not restored before end of CA proceedings.

All the same, this meant my final hearing for the child arrangement order was swamped with half-arsed allegations.

In short, they got the benefit of a compound final hearing. Without listing for 2-4 days.

that sounds like a nightmare, but in my case from a legal procedure perspective - is unusually simple and straightforward.

 

[DannyK]

Hello All,

I have EOW, half holidays and Tuesday teatimes with my 4.5yr old daughter who lives 3 miles away - and I recently made an application to Vary to 50/50 (expecting to land 5/9 overnights pre fortnight at a FH).

Unfortunately I just got a negative CAFCASS call report, that mostly just reiterated (surprise, surprise) Ex's allegations of DA (to get legal aid, etc). The conclusion being;

It is my view that the current court order should remain, there is no real justification to vary the court order when the current arrangements have been working well.

Has anyone had (or heard of) experience of undermining a negative CAFCASS report in Court?


I'm going to use a DAB barrister.

Things that could go in my favour, is that she (the CAFCASS officer) hadn't seen either the Court Order or the Social Services report (!) that concluded in January after my Ex reported "suspicious marks and bruises" following contact with me;

“This assessment has not substantiated any allegations of harm or impact on DAUGHTER for the local authority to recommend that either parent should act against the Court order and therefore the direction made by the Court must remain in place”

But now (because of the negative CAFCASS report), I'm trying to decide wether my application for more overnights is a lost cause and I should start thinking about a negotiation with Ex, or wether there is a realistic possibility of getting my existing 2x teatimes (per fortnight) turned into overnights.

@Ash has been helping me with this, but just thought I'd open it up to the floor and see what other members think?

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

What is a fact-finding hearing? - Family Law Partners

Fact-Finding Hearings are essentially a ‘mini-trial’ in the case. The Court must consider the allegations (and evidence in support) by one, or both, parties. The allegations are put to the court, to decide whether, in their view, the incidents did or did not happen. The standard of proof is ‘on...

www.familylawpartners.co.uk

I think it's up to the judge to decide if a FFH is needed. The main reason is to determine if it's in the child's best interests.

Domestic abuse with regard to child arrangements is mentioned in 3 separate paragraphs of the section 7 report, so I can clearly show relevance that it is important to establish the truth for future arrangements.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

Hello All,

I have EOW, half holidays and Tuesday teatimes with my 4.5yr old daughter who lives 3 miles away - and I recently made an application to Vary to 50/50 (expecting to land 5/9 overnights pre fortnight at a FH).

Unfortunately I just got a negative CAFCASS call report, that mostly just reiterated (surprise, surprise) Ex's allegations of DA (to get legal aid, etc). The conclusion being;


Has anyone had (or heard of) experience of undermining a negative CAFCASS report in Court?


I'm going to use a DAB barrister.

Things that could go in my favour, is that she (the CAFCASS officer) hadn't seen either the Court Order or the Social Services report (!) that concluded in January after my Ex reported "suspicious marks and bruises" following contact with me;


But now (because of the negative CAFCASS report), I'm trying to decide wether my application for more overnights is a lost cause and I should start thinking about a negotiation with Ex, or wether there is a realistic possibility of getting my existing 2x teatimes (per fortnight) turned into overnights.

@Ash has been helping me with this, but just thought I'd open it up to the floor and see what other members think?

I was / am always concerned that my ex would either injure our child before handover or try to make out an innocent bruise (in an active 4 year old) was the result of abuse. The way I got round that, is that I ensured that I always have people around me during my time with our child and document who, what and when. Remember this works, both ways. If you find suspicious injuries, you should report them also.

You cafcass report - what is your motive to vary to 50/50 ? if the report was that negative, they would be seeking to reduce your time, so I would look again at your tactics.

 

[DannyK]

You cafcass report - what is your motive to vary to 50/50 ?

The motive was to apply for 50/50 with an expectation to negotiate down during proceedings to 5/9 overnights, so daughter simply sleeps at my house after our teatimes instead of back and forth on a school night.

OR

that Court would do a well known "give each party a small win" and award somewhere in the middle (ie. 5/9 overnights).