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Mum wants to reduce my days

She will probably notice it's quite formal and might guess you might think about applying to court but it might also make her think twice about just dictating things ongoing. Fingers crossed you get a reasonable response. I suspect she will just send the kids with "messages" saying - we don't want to come for an extra Sunday night. She isn't supposed to do that.
 
Just picked the kids up for the weekend so thought I’d have a small chat just with my eldest, she said mum had spoke to her again after school (will of just got my email) and you’re pretty much on the money, she doesn’t like Sunday nights, but the main reason being the extra organising they have to do (I get the impression mum makes them pack their own stuff, they forget ties and shoes a fair bit) but she did talk about we wouldn’t loose a day because she would be here every Thursday, so there might be some movement there. I’ll wait and see! I could tell during the conversation that it’s playing on her mind, she’s definitely been put in a nightmare position
 
Yes wait and see what your ex comes up with. It's very common for them to object to Sunday nights - which in your case is strange as you already have one every fourth Sunday anyway! Yes they need to get ready for school next morning but that's no different to a midweek night. Sounds good that she is having second thoughts about you losing a night though! It's not too bad if it's being discussed with your eldest, if she's 11 or 12 say but still better if parents sort it out between them and then both tell the kids - this is what we've decided is best. So if your ex continues to use the kids to send messages then it's something that could help your case if you ever need to go to court. They can even write a recital that says the children should not be used as a conduit and arrangements need to be between parents.

It would be good if you could keep it out of court though and still keep the same number of nights. At some point in the future you could maybe try pushing for alternate Sunday nights again - or just have the flexibility of them sometimes if you want to go away for a week-end and get back late.

Have you got dates agreed for Christmas yet? That will be the next email probably :-). Wait to see if your ex gets back to you about this Thursday night first.
 
Hah! Well Christmas drama was bundled in this, but I thought it was too much info to get useful help on!
We agreed to holidays fairly early on at the beginning of this year, I was due to have the girls for the full week between Xmas and nyd. Their mum was very insistent we split holidays equally (she works in a school and I get the standard 28 days off) but we sorted a good balance I thought, one of the few successful discussions!
And for the main days it’s my weekend, but they are going back for Xmas Eve night, earlier than I had asked, Xmas day they are with me from around 10:30 until 4 (I’d asked for 6) then back at a tbc time Boxing Day
She’s now saying the girls want to go back to hers the day after Boxing Day, until the 30th, so I’ve lost half my week with them
 
Hmm. So she is shaving quite a bit of time off then. I wonder why now?
 
If she's not agreeing to half the school holidays then you do need to be thinking about court, but it would be better if it could be resolved by polite hinted pressure like the Biff emails. The only reasons I can think she is shaving time off generally is a) to maybe try and get more CMS (due to less time with you) or b) she is seeing someone else and making lots of plans.
 
I do think it is cms related if I am honest, a couple of weeks ago she asked me to go halves on some new school shoes for our youngest, I politely explained I wasn’t in a position to contribute more that I already had that month (I’d already brought one of the girls a waterproof for a school trip + spending money)
Ive had a reply, below
She is very good at framing it in a way that now if I contest it I’m in direct conflict with my children.


“The fact of the matter is the girls have expressed several times to me that they are at yours for more nights than they want to be. I have encouraged them to keep trying with these arrangements but after a really good chat with them they want less nights at yours. I know that must be hard to take but I need to put thier feelings first. It isn't about me being away from them for too long in one go (bearing in mind I don't like it but was happy to carry on if the girls were happy) this is about them feeling that they are spending too long away from what they have known all their lives as thier home.
Like I said before this may change when you do get your own place and I'm more than happy to keep the conversation open with them about how they feel about the arrangements.
I would not have gotten in touch with you about this if they were happy. They approached me about not enjoying spending so many nights at yours when we were discussing Christmas.
Let me make this very clear that these are not my wishes but what the girls have asked for and this is not me trying to cause rifts or arguments I'm putting their feelings first.
I do feel let down that you didn't speak to them about it on Wednesday, I would have thought you would have been concerned enough to have a chat with them but never mind.
I'm not just going to make decisions for them without them feeling comfortable and happy with arrangements. I will always talk to them first before I put and proposal for change forward.
We spoke again before they came to you and this is how they wish to spend their time.
Weekend with you fri-sun (home at 6)
They said to me it's getting too stressful on a Monday morning getting everything ready to come home and get ready for school.
Then after thier weekend with you they want it to be wed and Thurs night.
Weekend with me then the usual Wednesday with you and then your weekend again.
I hope you can understand that the girls need Thier views and feelings listened to and understood. “
 
I don't know what your ex is like but this is exactly what mine says and she's lying!

"I'm not just going to make decisions for them without them feeling comfortable and happy with arrangements. I will always talk to them first before I put and proposal for change forward."

Because she thinks it can convince me (or someone else) on paper and because she is asserting being the important parent. Mine has said things like this when I know full well my son doesn't agree with her. But he soon felt her wrath when he told her that actually he did want to spend more holiday time with me. The kids have no option but to agree (or could be persuaded with treats!).

The last line - she is aware that the eldest ones "wishes and feelings" will be taken seriously by a court and those wishes and feelings will be what her Mother has said.

It's the way she talks about "home" as well, as if her home is "home" and yours isn't. Mine does that too. It's very much saying - I am the resident parent, this is their home.

"They said to me it's getting too stressful on a Monday morning getting everything ready to come home and get ready for school."

How is it stressful to go straight to school on Monday morning from your house if they come straight from school on Friday in their uniform with their school stuff? Why would they need to "go home" on Monday morning before going to school? Do you live too far from school to take them to school?

Yes the CMS and school shoes request probably does have something to do with it.

So no mention of changing a night then? Just chopping that Tuesday night?

You're not going to change her attitude that her house is "home" and their main residence. Best thing you can do is get as much time as possible. I had many correspondences back and forth before court with my ex talking about son's "wishes" and me talking about his "best interests". After all kids can't always have what they want and what they want isn't always good for them.

So you could try one further response:

"Dear Ex Name

Thank you for your message. I think, as adults, we can easily organise practical matters so it isn't stressful to go straight to school from their home with me on a Monday morning. However, I would be happy to agree to their week-ends ending at 6pm as before, on the basis that there is some flexibility over this if I ever need to return them later (for example if going away for a week-end) and that occasionally they could stay over on the Sunday night. I think if they come straight to me from school in uniform with their school bags, there is no real difficulty in having everything they need to go straight to school on Monday morning, whichever parent they are with.

As adults and parents, we are responsible for ensuring the childrens relationship needs, as well as practical needs, are met, and I think the best way for both of these to be met is a regular, stable schedule of significant time with both parents.

If you wish to reduce week 1 to wednesday and thursday only, and are not in agreeement with the children staying on Sunday nights on a regular basis, I propose that instead the children spend Wednesday and Thursday night with me each week, and every other week-end until 6pm Sunday. This would mean their time with me is the same as before, rather than being reduced and hopefully will be agreeable to all. As such this would be

Week 1 Wednesday and Thursday nights with me
Week 2 Wednesday night through to Sunday 6pm with me

Please let me know if this is agreed"

I would try sending that. And see what the response is. The important thing is that you are seeking her agreement to things. She of course is avoiding any discussion of agreement and making out it's not her, it's the children, but she has parental responsibility and is expected to reach agreements with you as a co parent. So an email like this can be good evidence later, of how difficult it is to co parent and reach agreements and how she uses the children to send messages.
 
But wait till after the week-end with the kids! Have a great week-end and put her out of mind! If she is texting or phoning a lot all week-end, then set a house rule. Phones live on the kitchen table and they can be checked for messages once a day between 4pm and 6pm. And not used at mealtimes. (Ie phones are left in a room where you don't all spend time together). This worked very well for me, providing they have something else to use for games - a games console or another phone (eg yours).
 
Also if she is sending them loads of messages saying she misses them and wanting them to call her blah blah, screenshot those.
 
Hah literally just jumped on to say the same, will reply in detail after the weekend but yes, 50minutes after drop off, I miss you already texts, messages asking my eldest if she has spoken to me about it already and how I reacted (my eldest replied that we had spoken but didn’t want to talk about it with her yet, which she was pushed on) really sad to see
 
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Hah literally just jumped on to say the same, will reply in detail after the weekend but yes, 50minutes after drop off, I miss you already texts, messages asking my eldest if she has spoken to me about it already and how I reacted (my eldest replied that we had spoken but didn’t want to talk about it with her yet, which she was pushed on) really sad to see
My partners ex does that. Guilt tripping the kids.
 
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Hah literally just jumped on to say the same, will reply in detail after the weekend but yes, 50minutes after drop off, I miss you already texts, messages asking my eldest if she has spoken to me about it already and how I reacted (my eldest replied that we had spoken but didn’t want to talk about it with her yet, which she was pushed on) really sad to see
That is also good evidence - she is discussing you with the kids, while they're in your care, and pressurising them rather than discussing it with you, as an adult, and "encouraging" them to take sides basically.
 
I don't know what your ex is like but this is exactly what mine says and she's lying!

"I'm not just going to make decisions for them without them feeling comfortable and happy with arrangements. I will always talk to them first before I put and proposal for change forward."

Because she thinks it can convince me (or someone else) on paper and because she is asserting being the important parent. Mine has said things like this when I know full well my son doesn't agree with her. But he soon felt her wrath when he told her that actually he did want to spend more holiday time with me. The kids have no option but to agree (or could be persuaded with treats!).

The last line - she is aware that the eldest ones "wishes and feelings" will be taken seriously by a court and those wishes and feelings will be what her Mother has said.

It's the way she talks about "home" as well, as if her home is "home" and yours isn't. Mine does that too. It's very much saying - I am the resident parent, this is their home.

"They said to me it's getting too stressful on a Monday morning getting everything ready to come home and get ready for school."

How is it stressful to go straight to school on Monday morning from your house if they come straight from school on Friday in their uniform with their school stuff? Why would they need to "go home" on Monday morning before going to school? Do you live too far from school to take them to school?

Yes the CMS and school shoes request probably does have something to do with it.

So no mention of changing a night then? Just chopping that Tuesday night?

You're not going to change her attitude that her house is "home" and their main residence. Best thing you can do is get as much time as possible. I had many correspondences back and forth before court with my ex talking about son's "wishes" and me talking about his "best interests". After all kids can't always have what they want and what they want isn't always good for them.

So you could try one further response:

"Dear Ex Name

Thank you for your message. I think, as adults, we can easily organise practical matters so it isn't stressful to go straight to school from their home with me on a Monday morning. However, I would be happy to agree to their week-ends ending at 6pm as before, on the basis that there is some flexibility over this if I ever need to return them later (for example if going away for a week-end) and that occasionally they could stay over on the Sunday night. I think if they come straight to me from school in uniform with their school bags, there is no real difficulty in having everything they need to go straight to school on Monday morning, whichever parent they are with.

As adults and parents, we are responsible for ensuring the childrens relationship needs, as well as practical needs, are met, and I think the best way for both of these to be met is a regular, stable schedule of significant time with both parents.

If you wish to reduce week 1 to wednesday and thursday only, and are not in agreeement with the children staying on Sunday nights on a regular basis, I propose that instead the children spend Wednesday and Thursday night with me each week, and every other week-end until 6pm Sunday. This would mean their time with me is the same as before, rather than being reduced and hopefully will be agreeable to all. As such this would be

Week 1 Wednesday and Thursday nights with me
Week 2 Wednesday night through to Sunday 6pm with me

Please let me know if this is agreed"

I would try sending that. And see what the response is. The important thing is that you are seeking her agreement to things. She of course is avoiding any discussion of agreement and making out it's not her, it's the children, but she has parental responsibility and is expected to reach agreements with you as a co parent. So an email like this can be good evidence later, of how difficult it is to co parent and reach agreements and how she uses the children to send messages.
Hey, no I live in the same town, but not within walk in distance so I have to do all the moving around, Monday mornings they get ready for school as normal, and I ask them to round up any extra bits that need going back to their mums, which they can’t carry, their iPad, extra clothes and stuff, if we have time we drop that back before I drop them at school, or I drop it round in the evening.

No mention of Tuesdays no, clipped off the end of her reply is a bit about our eldest, she is being put forward for some school counselling, as she’s acting up a bit over the last month or so, how her mum can’t see that situations like this, putting her inbetween could be responsible is baffling, in the last month or so my kids have been introduced to my ex’s partners and they regularly stop over, so my eldest is going through a lot of extra stuff she could do without
 
I did speak to my eldest briefly about it on Friday, but my line was, help me understand what your concerns are, not, what do you want to happen? She really quickly started trying to tell me agreed routines, and as you would expect from a 12yr old, couldn’t really communicate any reasons behind wanting to change anything, she did seem to think she wouldn’t be loosing any days, because they would be at mine every Thursday now, which shows me she is, like we mentioned too young to understand schedules and stuff, but does tie in nicely to you’re suggested response of every weds and Thursday. My middle child casually dropped ‘oh dad we need to tell you that we aren’t coming on Sundays or Tuesdays anymore’ during dinner time, which to me backs up the emotional manipulation their mother is currently putting them through. It’s really tough to see
 
So that sounds like no Sunday nights at all now as well as losing the Tuesdays. So your ex has a new partner and wants a normal family life. If she can do this now, she can keep doing this. If you only have the extra Thursdays verbally told by the kids, you have nothing in writing to show that's agreed. So maybe she texted them this week-end saying tell your Dad he can have Thursdays, or something like that.

I would also be concerned about your eldest having counselling, as it could be she is standing up to her Mother a bit - and counselling should be independent really, not organised by one parent or the other, or they could influence the counsellor and the counsellor only report back to that one parent, and the child not feel free to say what they want.

Ok so Monday mornings - some of this is just practical. Stuff that needs to go back to Mum's doesn't have to go back Monday morning. All they need to do is get ready for school and you drop them off. As you say you can either drop some stuff round later, or they could take it to school in a bag and Mum pick up the bag from school when she picks the kids up.

So having them there Sunday nights is just convenient to her, not the kids.

Taking it one thing at a time at the moment is the right thing though - so if you can't get anything reasonable agreed, and end up having to apply to court, you can show you tried everything to negotiate something reasonable first.

What you need right now is something in black and white from your ex, exactly what is going to be the agreed schedule. Sounds like she is shaving off the one Sunday night per four weeks. And the Tuesdays, and giving you Wednesday and Thursday each week instead. But ideally you need that in black and white (so you can prove it in future) - which is why you send the Biff emails with clear proposals outlined and just need a yes or no from her. Then it's agreed in writing (so counts for more). Of course she probably won't just say yes or no, she'll just waffle about the kids say blah blah.
 
It's really hard to know how to react when they come out with things like "We're supposed to tell you we're not coming x night any more". If you say ok - then it makes it sound like that's a normal situation and you accept ex dictating things. If you say "are you ok with that?" it's putting them in the middle like your ex is doing, and whatever they say may not be reliable anyway. I just used to say something like "I'll discuss it with Mum".
 
“I’ll discuss it with mum” is exactly what I said and then moved the conversation on,
I’ll get this new agreement in writing, I have the 3 nights a week agreement in writing, it was different to what I wanted so it was her suggested agreement in the first place, I reported the change in circumstance to cms and she agreed it had been changed, so I’ve got plenty of evidence an agreement was made which she is now forcibly changing. Which I figure is good for any court action, I’m going to try one more biff letter, will send tomorrow, but then that’s it until after Christmas I think, I’ll make do with the days I have the kids, then look at speaking to a solicitor. It’s Crazy how she can just completely change an agreement like that
 
Yes how about that one above? :) That would basically be like a 2-2-5-5 schedule except it would be 2-2-4-5 ie you get the two midweek nights tacked onto the week-end.

If she does agree to that I expect she will do some messing about expecting them to go round to drop things off while they're with you or something! Are you actually getting a week at Christmas or not? If she's reduced the Christmas time I would add on the end of that email.

"Also please confirm that the children will be spending a week with me during the Christmas holidays, as agreed, in addition to x time to x time on Christmas day (or whatever).
 
If you don't get half the Christmas holidays I'd apply to court.
 
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