LIP for a Fact Finding

[DadLad]

Evening Dads,

Has anyone been through a Fact Finding as a LIP and what was your experience of this?

I know that you are almost frowned upon in court because you aren't part of their legal club by not being represented.

I don't have the financial resources for legal representation for this so Im trying to educate and prepare myself going forward.

How do you destroy the credibility of a witness?

How do you cross-examine the ex? And any witnesses?

What questions can you ask and how are they to be worded?

Has anyone won a FF as a LIP?


Thanks in advance

 

[mva]

I was LIP for a FF and lost.

I was facing her legal team and they did a job on me.

I struggled to remain calm and concise.

The judge within minutes said a few sarcastic things to me , which totally rocked me.

If ex has allegations you won’t be cross examining her directly but questions through the judge.

To be honest I should never have gone LIP, mentally I wasn’t up to it. I hadn’t seen my kids in 4 months and wasn’t well.

I was really proud of the bundle for court , that friends and parents had helped me with. This bundle was torn apart by the judge straight away compared to exes legal teams files.

Not trying to be voice of doom. I think it depends on how calm and analytical you can remain. The problem is if you remain detached and aloof you can also come across as lacking empathy.

Barrister is best if you can afford it.

 

[DadLad]

I was LIP for a FF and lost.

I was facing her legal team and they did a job on me.

I struggled to remain calm and concise.

The judge within minutes said a few sarcastic things to me , which totally rocked me.

If ex has allegations you won’t be cross examining her directly but questions through the judge.

To be honest I should never have gone LIP, mentally I wasn’t up to it. I hadn’t seen my kids in 4 months and wasn’t well.

I was really proud of the bundle for court , that friends and parents had helped me with. This bundle was torn apart by the judge straight away compared to exes legal teams files.

Not trying to be voice of doom. I think it depends on how calm and analytical you can remain. The problem is if you remain detached and aloof you can also come across as lacking empathy.

Barrister is best if you can afford

I am on the brink of being in debt, I honestly can't afford a barrister.

I am going to have to be LIP and hope for the best..

 

[DadLad]

I was LIP for a FF and lost.

I was facing her legal team and they did a job on me.

I struggled to remain calm and concise.

The judge within minutes said a few sarcastic things to me , which totally rocked me.

If ex has allegations you won’t be cross examining her directly but questions through the judge.

To be honest I should never have gone LIP, mentally I wasn’t up to it. I hadn’t seen my kids in 4 months and wasn’t well.

I was really proud of the bundle for court , that friends and parents had helped me with. This bundle was torn apart by the judge straight away compared to exes legal teams files.

Not trying to be voice of doom. I think it depends on how calm and analytical you can remain. The problem is if you remain detached and aloof you can also come across as lacking empathy.

Barrister is best if you can afford

I am on the brink of being in debt, I honestly can't afford a barrister.

I'm going to have to do it as a LIP and hope for the best.

 

[Resolute]

I am on the brink of being in debt, I honestly can't afford a barrister.

I am going to have to be LIP and hope for the best..

How long do you have to prepare?

How well was your ex represented in the previous hearing?

How long will FF be?

Do you have any time with Kid(s) for the interim?

(Sorry if some of the above is covered in other threads)

 

[DadLad]

How long do you have to prepare?

How well was your ex represented in the previous hearing?

How long will FF be?

Do you have any time with Kid(s) for the interim?

(Sorry if some of the above is covered in other threads)

I have 4 months to prepare.

Ex had a solicitor who was incompetent to say the least but they will have a barrister for the FF I presume.

Hearing is a combined FF and a final hearing over 4 days.

No contact or interim contact.

 

[Resolute]

It is good you have time. The trouble with not having a barrister is however much you prepare. It is difficult to handle the ground shifting beneath your feet. A barrister will know tricks we cannot see until after they have happened. For me the tricks were designed to shift results after hearings ended.

Do you believe your ex has legal aid now?

I would think about options for a C2 application before the FF comes around.

I respect what you have said about financial constraints. 4 months might be long enough to cobble something together though. I wish I had taken on the debt I refused for my FH.

 

[Ash]

I believe you've had a section 7 as well - what did Cafcass recommend? If anything - or are they just letting the hearing decide things?

 

[Ash]

A four day hearing would cost a fortune for anyone. Have you tried contacting Advocate to see if you could get a pro bono Barrister? I think they assess your finances though so may go by income.

 

[DadLad]

We are talking £15k+ to have a barrister for my hearing.

 

[DadLad]

It is good you have time. The trouble with not having a barrister is however much you prepare. It is difficult to handle the ground shifting beneath your feet. A barrister will know tricks we cannot see until after they have happened. For me the tricks were designed to shift results after hearings ended.

Do you believe your ex has legal aid now?

I would think about options for a C2 application before the FF comes around.

I respect what you have said about financial constraints. 4 months might be long enough to cobble something together though. I wish I had taken on the debt I refused for my FH.

A C2 application for what purpose would you suggest?

 

[DadLad]

The judge asked specifically for a schedule of allegations from both parties only to include those which have directly affected the kids and nothing historical, relationship issues etc.

I have received the schedule from the other party and they have not followed what was ordered.

They have listed allegations which have no relevance to this case and also new false historical allegations.

I have stuck to what was asked by the judge but I could have also listed many other allegations but I didn't because it has to relevance.

Do I send an email or should I send a C2 form raising my issues with them not following orders? I don't want to wait until the hearing to object her schedule.

 

[Resolute]

QUOTE="DadLad, post: 24655, member: 231"]
A C2 application for what purpose would you suggest?
[/QUOTE]

I don't know yet. And, I'd want to knock ideas around to see what other members think before a decision/recommendations. I did not get a FF or S7 in my proceedings. The other side saw advantage in avoiding any level of scrutiny or external assessment.

C2 might be used for urgent directions on interim child arrangement. I do not know if it could be used to ask for a decision "on papers" regarding evidence filed without permission from the court.

Here is a letter written for me at one point:


"Dear Solicitor,

Your client was directed to file and serve [INSERT DOC NAME] by XX:XX on [MONTH] the XXth by order of Judge XXXXXX, DD/MM/YY (date of order).

I am concerned that your client has failed to provide evidence on time and as ordered and as a result does not have permission to file and rely on the same.

I formally invite you to confirm she has no evidence to file, or alternatively, look forward to considering an application to file out of time.

Additionally, I am gravely concerned by your client’s recent behaviour to deprive CHILD of ordered time with his/her father.

Yours sincerely..."

It had the desired impact. It is not a directly equivalent situation. But, from what you've said, your ex has filed stuff outside of permission given by the court. And, it raises the possibility of applying within proceedings (C2) for permission to file outside of process. It may all be posturing, I have seen the court be very permissive on evidence outside of process.

C2 asking the court not to allow her further allegations into evidence might be worth a shot.

If your ex has legal aid, it will be capped at a certain point. Will she step in and deal with things to save money for a barrister? Will she let funds be eaten up by a solicitor to deal with interim correspondence and applications?

The legal team that opposed me used guiding strategy to gain every inch of ground at every point of the process. They showed me that we do not have to sit back and wait for the next hearing.

Like I say, I have no experience of FF. My final hearing was composite in a sense. Occupation Order, Non-Mol, PSO, SIO, applications were adjourned with liberty to restore. Evidence from them to stand as evidence in the child arrangement hearing. So my FH became a pseudo FF. It was only one day though.

Hopefully others will have a read and help work out if any of what I've written could be useful.

Explore every avenue and try to find some way of throwing a spanner in.

 

[DadLad]

I believe you've had a section 7 as well - what did Cafcass recommend? If anything - or are they just letting the hearing decide things?

They are waiting to see the outcome if any findings are made then make recommendations.

 

[DadLad]

Im going to have a think about it, but I think this needs an application as they haven't followed what was set out and ordered by the court.

I could have included a lot more if this was ordered but I have stuck to what was asked.

 

[mainstay92]

Im going to have a think about it, but I think this needs an application as they haven't followed what was set out and ordered by the court.

I could have included a lot more if this was ordered but I have stuck to what was asked.

Barristers will always set out to destroy the opposite side regardless if their is evidence as they want to win. If you have alot of evidence to support yourself and feel confident to put questions together for your ex to be asked (you won't do the asking).
If you really cant afford it, very little you can do but go give it your best in court. It would be easier for you to have a barrister. Apply for the Pro bono barrister as Ash mentioned earlier.

 

[DadLad]

Why is the family court such a absolutely horrible experience?

The solicitors and barristers with all these dirty tricks and underhanded tactics to try and screw you over. Perjury and breaching orders go unpunished and child abuse is ignored.

 

[mainstay92]

Why is the family court such a absolutely horrible experience?

The solicitors and barristers with all these dirty tricks and underhanded tactics to try and screw you over. Perjury and breaching orders go unpunished and child abuse is ignored.

Completely agree with you. Its appauling what is going on and how mothers get away with it.

 

[DadLad]

Would it be a FL403 or a C2 application to raise my issue with the ex not being compliant with following an order?

 

[Resolute]

I believe C2