interim arrangements and an unexpected development

[NewcastleBrownAle]

Whilst away this weekend I received an email from the courts. Last week I had the CAFCASS safeguarding report.
The court have summoned me to appear in 2 weeks time, to discuss interim access arrangements and have also set a date for the FHDRA in July, in both cases they want me there an hour early for prehearing discussions. The ex wants the interim arrangements to be at a contact centre, but rather than rubber stamp this, it appears the court wants to hold a hearing to discuss. They also want me to write to the court, outlining my thoughts on child access arrangements going forwards for the FHDRA in July. They also want me to ask my GP to disclose any consultations regarding alcohol use and "any other safeguarding issues", this would be a very short letter from my GP stating there is none. Seems a strange request, I was expecting an alcohol test, I imagine that is coming, but why the letter?

Most interesting, despite me not mentioning it all, they mention "parental alienation" using that exact terminology, its seems that CAFCASS have picked up on it , that the ex is clearing doing it.
The ex wants contact centre, she did this with the other dads, and simply didn't turn up , with the usual lame excuses. So I'm keen to get this knocked on the head.

The court also wants to bring the NMO into the proceedings, and acknowledges that cross undertaking were made.

So, overall, it seems that I might just be making progress.

question - The ex, and her solicitor have breached the cross undertaking , I'm considering asking the court to hold there legal council in contempt, as they have clearly breaching the undertaking that they made to the court at the NMO.

Another curious part of the letter - " .. the ex.. alleges domestic abuse but this is not thought to be determinative ...." not heard this phrase before, but I think they mean that it is not relevant to the CAO/PRO I seek and therefore they will ignore ?

 

[MagicJ]

On the surface at first read, the way you have presented this all sounds like positive & significant steps in the right direction.

I can't say I've ever come across examples on the forum where PA has been alleged by Cafcass & the courts independently!

 

[MagicJ]

This is what AI has to say:

The phrase “alleges domestic abuse but this is not thought to be determinative” in layman’s terms means that while domestic abuse is a factor in the situation being discussed, it’s not considered to be the deciding or conclusive factor. In other words, even if domestic abuse is present, it doesn’t necessarily determine the outcome or conclusion of the situation. It suggests that there are other factors at play which are also important.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

On the surface at first read, the way you have presented this all sounds like positive & significant steps in the right direction.

I can't say I've ever come across examples on the forum where PA has been alleged by Cafcass & the courts independently!

during the CAFCASS call I was careful not to say anything negative to the ex. CAFCASS said that my son was scared to see me and distressed at the idea. I said, "don't you find that strange ? the last time I saw him , he stayed at mine, loved every minute and didn't want to go home, so how come in a matter of weeks, has that been replaced with being frightened of me ? I also mentioned that I bought him an xbox so we could play games on that together (sonic the hedgehog racing). The CAFCASS officer asked how he got on with that, and I said, " I don't know, he told me that his mother had told him he wasn't allowed to play on it, no idea why." , I let CAFCASS draw their own conclusions, rather than make the accusation.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

so for me, the key hearing is the interim arrangements. The ex will try to put obstacles in the way, as she always does and want it to be contact centre, an hour every other week, but with the extreme AI going on, it would be of no help at all. The ex would not show up, make lame excuses that no-one will check and I know this will happen, as that is what she did with the other dads. Her aim is to make any contact I have with my son as difficult as possible and ensure that the experience is a bad one, for my son. She will prep him to hate it.... I just don't understand some people.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

This is what AI has to say:

The phrase “alleges domestic abuse but this is not thought to be determinative” in layman’s terms means that while domestic abuse is a factor in the situation being discussed, it’s not considered to be the deciding or conclusive factor. In other words, even if domestic abuse is present, it doesn’t necessarily determine the outcome or conclusion of the situation. It suggests that there are other factors at play which are also important.

there isn't any domestic abuse and the ex can't offer any tangible evidence to suggest there has been. CAFCASS say they don't want a fact find, but their only obstacle is that my ex is refusing any contact with me, so as to do handovers. Just another tactic to be difficult. I suggested, ok, that's fine, I'll send a mutual friend to go and pick him up, but she refused that as well. She also thinks I'm going to abduct him and not return him, but of course has no evidence that I have ever not taken him to her on time. It's just obstacles she is putting in the way.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

at the NMO, the cross undertaking, was to communicate via parenting app, and solicitors would mediate to arrange child access, but both the ex and the solicitors immediately reengaged on that agreement and failed to respond. So I'm thinking of asking the court to deal with that as contempt, as it demonstrates that they would fail to adhere to any court orders moving forward.

 

[MagicJ]

It would strengthen your case if that type of pressure is actually taken seriously by the court & enforced.
I can't recall if you had a Barrister on the NMO?

If so, I'd ping them the question & see if they'd answer it, would give you some reassurance before attempting to enforce.
Nevertheless, even if you don't raise it seperately, bringing it to bear at the Interim hearing would help shine the light which is in your favour.

 

[Peanut 21]

I'm pretty sure years ago there was similar wording on an order my partner received from the court, in ref to DV being alleged. I'll try and find it later. That was five years ago and he's never been found as abusive, thank god.

How was the parental alienation worded? Was it in a S7? I find it interesting cafcass used the terminology.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

It would strengthen your case if that type of pressure is actually taken seriously by the court & enforced.
I can't recall if you had a Barrister on the NMO?

If so, I'd ping them the question & see if they'd answer it, would give you some reassurance before attempting to enforce.
Nevertheless, even if you don't raise it seperately, bringing it to bear at the Interim hearing would help shine the light which is in your favour.

no, I self represented.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

I'm pretty sure years ago there was similar wording on an order my partner received from the court, in ref to DV being alleged. I'll try and find it later. That was five years ago and he's never been found as abusive, thank god.

How was the parental alienation worded? Was it in a S7? I find it interesting cafcass used the terminology.

The term was not present in the CAFCASS safeguarding letter, the section 7 report is yet to be undertaken. The term parental alienation was in the letter sent by the judge after a closed gatekeeping hearing (between CAFCASS and judge).

 

[Resolute]

That sounds like a good judge to have. Is there any hope of having the same judge again? Have you seen anything about the case being 'reserved'.

Do you think your ex would be more likely to follow an order for time with you if it is not at a contact centre? The best security I am aware of is regular collection from school. Backed up by a great relationship with the school.

The 'determinative' bit is good. Instead of saying it isn't true, they say it doesn't matter. It is hard to imagine them saying DA doesn't matter if they thought serious abuse had taken place. Especially so early on.

P.s. I'd continue to steer clear of the term PA, even though it has now appeared independently.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

That sounds like a good judge to have. Is there any hope of having the same judge again? Have you seen anything about the case being 'reserved'.

Do you think your ex would be more likely to follow an order for time with you if it is not at a contact centre? The best security I am aware of is regular collection from school. Backed up by a great relationship with the school.

The 'determinative' bit is good. Instead of saying it isn't true, they say it doesn't matter. It is hard to imagine them saying DA doesn't matter if they thought serious abuse had taken place. Especially so early on.

Thanks, I will now sort the GP letter, for the hearing and consider what to do next.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

That sounds like a good judge to have. Is there any hope of having the same judge again? Have you seen anything about the case being 'reserved'.

Do you think your ex would be more likely to follow an order for time with you if it is not at a contact centre? The best security I am aware of is regular collection from school. Backed up by a great relationship with the school.

The 'determinative' bit is good. Instead of saying it isn't true, they say it doesn't matter. It is hard to imagine them saying DA doesn't matter if they thought serious abuse had taken place. Especially so early on.

P.s. I'd continue to steer clear of the term PA, even though it has now appeared independently.

the ex had me banned from the school and spread lies around it, saying I'm a rapist, child molester and wife beater, none of which is true, she would be incandescent if the court ordered school pick up, as it would not fit with the lies she has made.

 

[hazemaze]

Those lies are the worst lies anyone could make. I hope the court sees in your favour and you get justice.

 

[Resolute]

the ex had me banned from the school and spread lies around it, saying I'm a rapist, child molester and wife beater, none of which is true, she would be incandescent if the court ordered school pick up, as it would not fit with the lies she has made.

I fear incandescent is her only option after dishing all that out.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

I fear incandescent is her only option after dishing all that out.

Thing is, for her, this is a vendetta, a hate campaign, so rather than see this as child focused, she will be out to cause trouble. I know there are a lot of unreasonable horrible ex's out there, but mine is an award winner.

 

[Resolute]

I encourage you to find a way of overcoming any barriers between you and the school. My ex tried to put up similar barriers. I was never actually banned. Probably because I had a court order saying collect from school. But they did refuse me appointments and tell lies.

Persistence, forced cheeriness, quite a few meetings with senior staff to show how child focussed I am, turning up for everything and volunteering at the school... Any possible way of being the opposite of what I was dressed up as by my ex. Eventually I became well accepted. They work with me more than my ex now.

If you are banned from being at the school physically. You can still have phone or video meetings. I believe there will be a way of challenging the ban. If it is a bail condition, it is temporary. Even an NMO or an undertaking would be time limited.

 

[NewcastleBrownAle]

I encourage you to find a way of overcoming any barriers between you and the school. My ex tried to put up similar barriers. I was never actually banned. Probably because I had a court order saying collect from school. But they did refuse me appointments and tell lies.

Persistence, forced cheeriness, quite a few meetings with senior staff to show how child focussed I am, turning up for everything and volunteering at the school... Any possible way of being the opposite of what I was dressed up as by my ex. Eventually I became well accepted. They work with me more than my ex now.

If you are banned from being at the school physically. You can still have phone or video meetings. I believe there will be a way of challenging the ban. If it is a bail condition, it is temporary. Even an NMO or an undertaking would be time limited.

there is a clause in a cross undertaking not to go near the school ( ex thinks I will abduct my son, which is nonsense ), but the court can amend this if required. My real issue is that I'm moving away, 270 miles away , so the arrangements need to be carefully thought out. The ex wants it to be at contact centre, where she will not turn up, just as she has done with the other father of her other children, but I will bring this up at court, along with her serious breach of the cross undertaking and try to come to a workable solution.

 

[Ash]

don't you find that strange ?

That was a very smart response to the Cafcass officer. Ask them a question rather than desperately try to explain or get defensive.

The school thing sounds awful. How do you know she had spread these lies about you to the school? Did she tell you? Or did the school say she had accused you of those things? It could be helpful to be able to prove she said those things. It sounds like your ex is trying to pre-empt preventing any unsupervised time by doing that. Although the school have banned you, could you politely and briefly email them along the lines of - you understand why the school have decided to take this action based on information from the Mother of the children, but you need to inform them that there are currently court matters going on and there are no findings against you, but concerns for the child's wellbeing in view of the Mother's hostility and you would be grateful if, in the meantime, they would let you know if they had any concerns about your child as he must be under a lot of stress, being in the middle of this.

Just to keep them in the picture and politely let them know it's all lies, and yet still be child focused. Your ex is playing the "parent with care" card, and unfortunately some ex's do this, and if they are the parent with care some schools will do what the Mother tells them - when there are no clear orders otherwise.