First Hearing Dispute Resolution Appointment

[Ash]

Hacked Off Dad - a fact find can go horribly wrong if the other side has a lawyer and you don't. If they find for you - good - her allegations are dismissed and she can't claim them again. But if they find for her - it has been known that they order indirect only for the Dad - or sometimes they require to go on a dv perpetrators course if you want to see your kids - meaning they want you to admit to the dv even if it isn't true. Some Dads have been distraught at that situation. Admitting to something that isn't true, just to be able to see their kids. And told if they don't admit it, it's indirect only (ironical isn't it?).

One thing a barrister can do is persuade the Judge - strongly - the Judge has to listen to caselaw presented. I think I'd want backup like that if having a fact find hearing where my future life with my kids depended on it. But not everyone can afford it. Some people have done ok at Fact Finds as LIP - some have done disastrously. I think generally a barrister for a half day fact find, works out cheaper than using a solicitor who will charge for phone calls, paperwork etc as well as representing you.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

This is a good thread, I am a LIP and am scared to death now about the fact find and the impact it will have, that said though, at present I have no idea if she has even got a solicitor I have heard nothing back even when I have asked, so my darling ex has made some serious allegations which she will now have to present at the FDRHA I am not going to bother with Solicitors and Barristers as I A: can't afford it and B: at this point don't really feel they can do that much if ultimately its the judges decision, The Fact find is rediculous, but having not seen my child properly now in 2 years I don't think that pegging a Barrister in there now would get me any further quicker, thing is for me I have to let it unwind and decompress, even on my C100 I have mentioned nothing, not even got into mud slinging at the start, its all on her terms, I see lots of posts on here about money and time etc, but the reality is you are at the mercy of the courts, this is not a criminal court it is not about YOU, what you win and what your ex gets, its not about revenge either, for me this is about a court process that is so FU that this is what they want, its a licence to print money, tie you in knots and rinse your bank account. Children do need fathers and some of you are luckier than me with money I guess, but I will post this link again for you all to see, this is the reality you are faced with,

maybe I could use a Direct Access Barrister for the Fact find but then what?

Only thing I did positively this week was buy a printer, for the start of this monsterous task ahead, and so.... the war rage

Hacked Off Dad - a fact find can go horribly wrong if the other side has a lawyer and you don't. If they find for you - good - her allegations are dismissed and she can't claim them again. But if they find for her - it has been known that they order indirect only for the Dad - or sometimes they require to go on a dv perpetrators course if you want to see your kids - meaning they want you to admit to the dv even if it isn't true. Some Dads have been distraught at that situation. Admitting to something that isn't true, just to be able to see their kids. And told if they don't admit it, it's indirect only (ironical isn't it?).

One thing a barrister can do is persuade the Judge - strongly - the Judge has to listen to caselaw presented. I think I'd want backup like that if having a fact find hearing where my future life with my kids depended on it. But not everyone can afford it. Some people have done ok at Fact Finds as LIP - some have done disastrously. I think generally a barrister for a half day fact find, works out cheaper than using a solicitor who will charge for phone calls, paperwork etc as well as representing you

Hacked Off Dad - a fact find can go horribly wrong if the other side has a lawyer and you don't. If they find for you - good - her allegations are dismissed and she can't claim them again. But if they find for her - it has been known that they order indirect only for the Dad - or sometimes they require to go on a dv perpetrators course if you want to see your kids - meaning they want you to admit to the dv even if it isn't true. Some Dads have been distraught at that situation. Admitting to something that isn't true, just to be able to see their kids. And told if they don't admit it, it's indirect only (ironical isn't it?).

One thing a barrister can do is persuade the Judge - strongly - the Judge has to listen to caselaw presented. I think I'd want backup like that if having a fact find hearing where my future life with my kids depended on it. But not everyone can afford it. Some people have done ok at Fact Finds as LIP - some have done disastrously. I think generally a barrister for a half day fact find, works out cheaper than using a solicitor who will charge for phone calls, paperwork etc as well as representing you.

I do get it, and I hear what you are saying, I guess the FDRHA will flush out her position but as it stands I have had no contact from a solicitor, not even sure she will turn up, lets see what happens closer to the time, I have paid for a case review from a McKenzie friend so lets see what that gives me first

 

[Kyle]

It definitely all depends on the kind of ex you've got and are going up against. If yours is, for all her nastiness, smart, takes the time to learn the process, has adequate finances and is backed up by strong legal representation then you've got to get on an equal footing or you could be absolutely done over.

My ex is ticking none of those boxes thankfully but I'm not taking any chances. Ash has given me a good contact via private message and I'm in consultation with them to see how we proceed.

I know that my darling former love is going to throw something new at every hearing just to prolong my suffering and keep me away from my son for as long as she can. I can take a gamble and hope the court dismisses her allegations, which does look very likely, but if she take the dirty road and starts making allegations of child sexual abuse or any other very serious sexual allegations it could get very complicated very quickly.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

It definitely all depends on the kind of ex you've got and are going up against. If yours is, for all her nastiness, smart, takes the time to learn the process, has adequate finances and is backed up by strong legal representation then you've got to get on an equal footing or you could be absolutely done over.

My ex is ticking none of those boxes thankfully but I'm not taking any chances. Ash has given me a good contact via private message and I'm in consultation with them to see how we proceed.

I know that my darling former love is going to throw something new at every hearing just to prolong my suffering and keep me away from my son for as long as she can. I can take a gamble and hope the court dismisses her allegations, which does look very likely, but if she take the dirty road and starts making allegations of child sexual abuse or any other very serious sexual allegations it could get very complicated very quickly.

And even though you get an order by the end there is nothing stopping her doing it again whenever she sees fit I am just being cautious right now tip toe through the tulips so to speak

 

[Kyle]

And even though you get an order by the end there is nothing stopping her doing it again whenever she sees fit I am just being cautious right now tip toe through the tulips so to speak

Always wise to be cautious.

When you submit the forms to enforce a court order, what is the typical outcome?

Do they just give her a verbal warning?

The government portal mentions fines, unpaid work and possibly prison!

I’d love to know what the statistics are.

 

[Kyle]

If you made the decision not to be legally represented at an FHDRA but want to instruct a Barrister to represent you at a FFH how do you inform the court of this change?

On the initial C100 form it asks for the details of your legal representative if you select 'Yes' to the question 'Will you be legally represented by a solicitor in these proceedings?'

I selected 'No' initially as I took a gamble that things would be over after the first hearing.

"These proceedings" are obviously referring to the whole case aren't they? So what is the mechanism for changing your mind now that you're facing new allegations?

Thanks as always.

K

​

 

[Ash]

Enforcement - every situation is different. Technically a Judge can do anything at an enforcement, amend the order so it works better, increase time, reduce time, or just give the ex a telling off and tell her to stick to the order. If she still doesn't they can get heavier. I've heard of some good enforcements where the Judge has given the Dad an extra day (to show the ex that breaching doesn't pay). There is no proper punishment as such - and rarely instigated - a fine is mentioned (that's usually just the court fee), or unpaid work (that's rarely done and not a great punishment), or prison - virtually unheard of.

So it's about making the order work. Be aware though that there is a trick some ex's and solicitors use, which is to deliberately breach, to make you enforce (ie pay the court fee!) and then they wap in a variation application at the hearing to try and reduce the time in the order. It would probably go to a second hearing then and be treated as a variation.

If you made the decision not to be legally represented at an FHDRA but want to instruct a Barrister to represent you at a FFH how do you inform the court of this change?

You just email the court before the FFH and inform them you will now be represented by Mr X name, Barrister. The Barrister will also let the court know. Sometimes it's good not to inform them till a couple of days before the hearing - so the ex finds out as late as possible!

On the initial C100 form it asks for the details of your legal representative if you select 'Yes' to the question 'Will you be legally represented by a solicitor in these proceedings?'

I selected 'No' initially as I took a gamble that things would be over after the first hearing.

All that is about is the court needs to know who to send the court papers to. If you tick yes then you're supposed to give the solicitors name and address details and they send the court papers to the solicitor. If you tick no, they send the court papers to you. If submitting your own application it's usually best to tick no, even if you're getting some legal advice in the background - because it's the correct answer - no you're not being represented by anyone (at that point in time).

You can change at any point - you can start being represented by someone and you can stop being represented by someone. You just send the court a brief email, quoting the case number, and inform them of the change.

 

[Kyle]

Feeling somewhat deflated today but coming to terms with the court letter that I finally received this morning following my initial FHDRA.

My next hearing isn't until 20th November! It's not a FFH, according to the court report, its an adjournment of the FHDRA. So FHDRA Part 2.

On the plus side I can now make arrangements to book contact centre time with my son on alternating weekends. The wording of the letter is somewhat ambiguous as I was lead to believe if it said supervised I had to travel further, about an hour away, to the nearest supervised contact centre and if it said unsupervised It meant a short 10 minute drive to the nearest unsupervised contact centre...but it says "supported" contact! So I'm non-the-wiser.

My ex has been instructed to write a document clearly explaining her rapidly expanding allegations against me. And a copy must be sent to the court, Cafcass and me, so that will be some pleasant bedtime reading!

I have been instructed by the court to succumb to my exes demands and provide a 6 month hair strand test for alcohol. But she must pay half.

I, as the Applicant, have to put together a paginated digital Bundle, with an index, in .pdf format, containing all the relevant documents and must file it at court by email and send copies to all parties no later than 48 hours before the hearing.

If the Respondent is represented but I am not, then the Bundle is the responsibility of the Respondent. If neither party is represented, then both parties must ensure that the documents on which they intend to rely have been sent to the court and to the other party in accordance with the direction order.

In terms of complexity things seem to have gone up a fair few notches.

Still in the hunt for a Barrister but I seem to have plenty of time.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

Dont waste your money on a barrister, whilst cafcass is involved its pointless

 

[Kyle]

Dont waste your money on a barrister, whilst cafcass is involved its pointless

In the now second copy of the Cafcass report, that was stuffed into the envelope with my court report, it says that they have not identified any further role for themselves. The direction of the court is that evidence to support my exes allegations and my hair strand test are compiled and presented at this Second Hearing Dispute Resolution Appointment. Then the court will decide if a Fact Finding Hearing is necessary.

So you believe a Barrister would be of little use for this SHDRA?

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

I don't honestly know pal, but I do see on here a lot, Barrister, Barrister Barrister, this is a family court, all these people do is stir a massive shitpot of arcomony in my view, if you have nothing to hide or have done nothing wrong, what do you need a barrister for? other than to fuel her further and give her more air time, the courts want you out of there ASAP involving legal will ensure you stay in there longer and waste more money, if her allegations are going on and on and on, then they will have to stop it at somepoint, if you believe you are not at fault here at all and there is no sustinence to any of it, why would you instruct a barrister, and after the Facts have been established, they may decide to do an s7 report which then cafcass will be involved. the fact that people can just make up allegations after allegations don't forget its "Resolution" between two parties I have attached the process what I am following.

 

[Ash]

It can make the difference between getting a good result or not getting a good result - and getting things knocked on the head or things dragging on.

Kyle, it's disappointing that your next hearing isn't a final hearing and is yet another FHDRA because your ex continues to make allegations. Clearly she will do this if she thinks she's "losing" and you're about to get an order.

You don't want any more delays. It's a difficult one - it might be that you want to save your money for a final hearing for a barrister. On the other hand sometimes things can go wrong at an FHDRA and a barrister can make sure they go better.

November is a way off so have a think about it. What it seems to me is it's a typical magistrates thing, that if they don't know what to do they adjourn for another hearing. And that's your life and time. How is it going to be any different at the next hearing than this one? Cafcass have already done their bit, there are no welfare issues. So you get your hair strand test done for the next hearing, do a bundle and do a good position statement.

It sounds strange doing a bundle for an FHDRA though. Maybe it will turn into a final hearing - but then if that was the case they'd be asking for statements from you both.

At least the next hearing is this year!

Hang in there. At least you'll be seeing your child now. I think though, after what happened at your last hearing, I would be inclined to use a barrister - to make sure she doesn't do this again. I know of one case where the ex brought up more allegations at every hearing - and everything was put back again every time. Went on for two years like that and the case gets lost in time.

A Barrister for a half day hearing isn't as bad as a barrister for a full day final hearing. If you have to do both it will obviously be more expensive.

If you can't afford both, we can help you prepare for the next hearing and have a strong position statement pre-empting any arguments she might make. The one thing I learned along the way was just turning up, being well behaved and having jumped through hoops, isn't quite enough sometimes. You then need to have a voice. A position statement can do that for you.

At least your ex has to pay for half the hair strand cost!

 

[proud_dad]

My timeline for specific issues:
C100 submitted Nov 2021, FHDRA Feb 2022, DRA May 2022, Final hearing June 2022.

 

[Hackedoff_dad]

I see it like this, the more allegations someone makes the more they have to investigate if they are serious enough, but be clear on this Allegations are all they are, until they can prove it with facts, and not just raking up a load of texts & emails with a view to have a massive bun fight, the facts as I see it are you will get an hour max if you are lucky, so by default you are not going to get through endless allegations, the fact that these people gather evidence so as to rubbish their partner in court, half of it won't even have time to be presented, if someone makes 200 allegations with 30GB of evidence, and you have an hour to go through it, no police reports, no school reports no molestation orders and that you don't have a criminal record involving violence and worse, the courts must move it on, I get everyones point that a barrister maybe useful in the hard negotiations towards the end, but simply involing legal at this stage for me at least would not be productive, as you are throwing your money away, she is trying to tie you in knotts and this won't end well for you lose your shit at the next hearing due to frustration, why not speak to a McKenzie friend and see what help they could provide on the day, I am not telling you what to do, but it looks like you are being dragged right into a very dangerous and costly ring of fire here, at least for £150 you could at least get a case review of where you are, and a bit of help to prepare, rather on a drip feed for thousands to buy someone another ski holiday for the family, , all a very difficult call in all seriousness mate, its hard for anyone to advise anything here, but thats what I would do if anything you might get piece of mind

 

[Ash]

My timeline for specific issues:
C100 submitted Nov 2021, FHDRA Feb 2022, DRA May 2022, Final hearing June 2022.

Was that meant for this thread Proud Dad? Or Resolute's thread about specific issues application?

 

[Ash]

I see it like this, the more allegations someone makes the more they have to investigate if they are serious enough, but be clear on this Allegations are all they are, until they can prove it with facts, and not just raking up a load of texts & emails with a view to have a massive bun fight, the facts as I see it are you will get an hour max if you are lucky, so by default you are not going to get through endless allegations, the fact that these people gather evidence so as to rubbish their partner in court, half of it won't even have time to be presented, if someone makes 200 allegations with 30GB of evidence, and you have an hour to go through it, no police reports, no school reports no molestation orders and that you don't have a criminal record involving violence and worse, the courts must move it on, I get everyones point that a barrister maybe useful in the hard negotiations towards the end, but simply involing legal at this stage for me at least would not be productive, as you are throwing your money away, she is trying to tie you in knotts and this won't end well for you lose your shit at the next hearing due to frustration, why not speak to a McKenzie friend and see what help they could provide on the day, I am not telling you what to do, but it looks like you are being dragged right into a very dangerous and costly ring of fire here, at least for £150 you could at least get a case review of where you are, and a bit of help to prepare, rather on a drip feed for thousands to buy someone another ski holiday for the family, , all a very difficult call in all seriousness mate, its hard for anyone to advise anything here, but thats what I would do if anything you might get piece of mind

Every case is different. But allegations do cause delays. A McKenzie friend can't speak in the court, be an advocate, or represent you to the Judge.

 

[Kyle]

Was that meant for this thread Proud Dad? Or Resolute's thread about specific issues application?

I think Proud was just giving me a perspective of a timeline.

I really feel for all of you who have been battling this for months, even years! It can't go on like this.

 

[Ash]

McKenzie friends cost money too - some are good, some are not. The reason this site is here is to help people doing it themselves, or some of it themselves, and we don't charge . But do share experiences and help provide resources.

 

[Ash]

I think Proud was just giving me a perspective of a timeline.

I really feel for all of you who have been battling this for months, even years! It can't go on like this.

Hang in there.

 

[Kyle]

I take onboard all the arguments for and against paying thousands of pounds for a Solicitor or Barrister and get Hacked Off's point of view that If you are innocent of allegations the court directed investigations will draw a blank as there's nothing to find to prove and ex Mrs. Evil's campaign of emotional torture will run out of road.

I have two options. Self-rep and accept that I could be going round this Buoy until the ex run's out of allegations and runway and the courts set a Final Hearing and give me my order saving me money, but potentially loosing me precious time with my child or take the financial hit and raise the money for a Direct Access Barrister in the hope that having that strength of advocacy in my corner to challenge what I've now discovered is a rather flappy District Judge who I will have for the second hearing and get him to see the light and reduce the duration of this saga and give my boy his dad back.