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First Hearing Dispute Resolution Appointment

In my opinion I would like to think Mckenzie Friends mostly care about helping someone navigate the familiy court system, solicitors and Barristers don't have any duty of care whatsoever and are always acting on behalf of someone for their own gain which is always a high fee, the reason the courts take so long is because legal people want to make lots of money, so drag parents into a non legal war rather than focussing on or looking from the perspective of the child, they fuel parents to think they are winning something,

If you take all that away from one side and are calm and rational and have support I don't see why one would have much trouble in coherently getting ones point accross professionally without the use of legal. "Suggestions" and "Allegations" are always going to try to make someone look bad and with the use of a solicitor or barrister or both I believe to a large extent all one is doing is playing a character in their game of generating significant income from acromony on both sides, on this forum I just seem to hear the word Direct Access Barrister alot, and it took me a while to figure it out.

I see posts on here when people don't get what they want, slagging off their ex, people trying to get a quick answers and solutions from other members, and usually it ends in someone rcommending a direct access barrister, I have no knowledge of the family courts yet, its a long journey for me, but I am not scared, or will not be bullied into thinking I am not doing the best for my child just because I don't have £25k laying around to give to legal people because I can't speak for myself.

As long as there is acromony between two parents its going to be hard to resolve, A barrister is not a professional in the family court and nor is a solicitor, just a mouth piece for acromony he said/she said, I am not saying they can't sway or win a case, but thats not what I am about, I am looking at a process to which I have to have faith in to resolve a dispute with my ex partner nothing legal in that whatsoever, once you choose your A Team and open your cheque book you are opening a massive can of worms here, mud slinging and paying for it.

Cafcass are the professionals here and nor barristers or solicitors can communicate with them, you however can and your ex partner, maybe I can see a use of legal services to get it properly accross the line at the binding/order stage but even then rationally you could do it all yourself with a bit of help saving money for your contact centres and give your hard earned money to the focus of your children. and support.

One thing I do agree with is, evereyone and their case, and needs are different and I can see that some folks are a lot further on than others, but maybe working and having faith in the system thats there to facillitate resolution and does have the needs of the child at heart, let cafcass do thier job and just sit tight and follow the process, if you feel a Solicitor and or a Barrister is for you and you can afford it, go for it, but please remember times are hard at the moment for a lot of people and I think having the right advice at the right time in a non legal environment should also include McKenzie friends as an option, thats just my 50p's worth here.....
 
I agree with you about Solicitors! There are times however, when they have the legal knowledge to manage an aspect of the case or make your case better (eg helping construct a good final statement or help you create a draft order with the correct terminology and on the correct form). But generally I'm not a fan of solicitors - it's very hard to find a good one that will fight your corner, return your calls and not run up a lot of unnecessary bills.

I think MacKenzie friends do care about helping people negotiate the system. However they are not legally trained and some have made things worse rather than better on occasion.

If you take all that away from one side and are calm and rational and have support I don't see why one would have much trouble in coherently getting ones point accross professionally without the use of legal
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In theory I'd agree with that and some Dads have successfully self repped throughout - often with help on here and from other Dads first. But there are pitfalls, there are good and bad Judges and you absolutely need to know the legal.

It isn't just a case of coherently getting your point across (although that's part of it) - it's about knowing what Judges can and can't do depending on what case you present to them. Case law is important at a final hearing. If a Barrister, or Dad self repping - uses the right case law, the Judge may have to follow that. Some Dads have done a lot of research on case law and done that themselves. But if the ex has a barrister - they will know more case law than you!

Barristers are advocates - ie they speak for you. But they don't just speak for you - they know the law inside out. They know what is and isn't possible. And they know when the other side has overstepped something and can call them to account on it, whereas a Dad self repping might get railroaded.

At final hearing it is highly adversarial. It's about knowing how to word an order legally. Barristers are experts at cross examination and that's usually what "wins" the case.

When I first went to court I thought similar to you - well I've done nothing wrong, I just need to go and ask to see my son for a reasonable amount of time and go through the processes and speak honestly and put a fair case across. And it's not like that usually. Fair doesn't even come into it. It's a system of winners and losers. Barristers love winning - so they give it their all.

For a start off, if your ex has a solicitor, they will use every dirty trick in the book to disrupt things for you, cause delays etc. They are acting for their clients, not in the child's best interests whatsoever.

If a Judge has a self repping Dad, and an ex with a solicitor, and everything's about to be done and dusted and then the ex's solicitor says - no actually, we want to adjourn and ask for more tests. The Judge has to agree to that. And that can happen time and time again. Unless you object and say actually no - there is no precedent for that (and quote the legal precedent - if you know it). If you're represented, then your lawyer will step in and argue the case that they're just delaying things, there are no welfare issues, Cafcass has recommended xyz and it should go straight to final hearing. The Judge will then agree with the most persuasive of the two.

As a Dad, even if you knew all the legal precedents and could argue well - often that makes you come across as stroppy and that can annoy a Judge. You can get some who will admire you for it, but - a sad reality is - Judges prefer dealign with lawyers - they know where they are - they have a kind of way of talking to each other etc. It's a system.

And yes there are many cases, where a Dad self reps throughout, jumps through all the hoops and comes out with a 50/50 order - that was before the pandemic when hearings were quicker, when there were no gatekeeping hearings, when it was almost automatic to get an interim order at the first hearing, and when the first hearing was only 6 weeks after your application. The longest you'd go without seeing your kids would be about 6 weeks. Even with horrific allegations it would be an interim order for supervised time.

Things are much worse now and everything takes much longer and yes it's about getting to see your kids.

Not all barristers are good - some are bad too. But good ones are very good. It's the way to win basically. To get what you want. To avoid having to go back to court 6 months later because the order wasn't written up right in the first place. There are so many pitfalls.

Costwise it's also cheaper to use a direct access barrister, than use a solicitor throughout, and Barristers absolutely are legal experts in family law. They can also have biases so you still need to find the right one.

It's not 25k either. It is a few thousand usually. I paid 4k for a barrister for my final hearing. After wasting 9k on Solicitors which really was money down the drain and got me nowhere.

That Barrister not only won me every point but was the only person throughout, who fought my corner. And pulled the ex to shreds - legally, without being seen as having done something wrong. And that has an effect for a long time on an ex.

Once they've been through a cross examination by a barrister they may toe the line forever rather than go through that again!

That's where Barristers are experts and come into their own. Skeleton arguments, powerful position statements and cross examination. They might seem quiet and low key at various stages but when it comes to cross examination, that is their field.

It's not always easy for a Dad to cross examine their ex. Final hearing involves cross examination - to prove who is telling the truth and to win the case. The person who wins the case gets the order they want.

If it's all a bit woolly it could end up being a woolly order that doesn't work, is temporary and full of loopholes. Then you end up having to go through it all over again (been there).

I am not saying it's essential to have a barrister - but yes it can save time and heartache for a long time and help you get on with your life quicker.

It's wrong we have to go to court to see our kids in the first place.
 
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Essentially as well - it depends who you're up against. If your ex has a legal team and you don't you can be at a big disadvantage. As one Dad said - an ex with a solicitor is your worst nightmare. And believe me there will be some nasty dirty tricks.

If she doesn't have legal representation it's an even playing field. If neither of you have representation, Judges can get annoyed because they can't deal with the case properly and can end up fobbing you both off or telling you to go away and have mediation again. Or just writing a woolly order.

Or it could go fairly well - it's uncertain. But if your ex has a solicitor, they will lead you a dance - they won't exchange statements (they'll see yours in advance and you won't see theirs, so they'll change theirs and undermine all your arguments before you even get to court). They'll "forget" to share documents with you. And so on. It's all about winning. Because it's an adversarial system.

Judges themselves do have to comply with the welfare checklist and take that very seriously - and they may weigh some parts of it up more than others depending on the circumstances. Judges can be biased either way as well - but if case law is presented they have to follow that helps prevent the bias.

As another Dad said - it's all a game. And we're the pawns unfortunately - and our kids.

For very wealthy people it's a lot easier - they just hire a top solicitor and barrister team and let them sort out the lot. And then you might be talking about 60k.

They are really tough decisions and financial ones too. The toughest decisions are always about time and money. And time with our kids is important.

The biggest mistake I made, first time round, was thinking I could just be honest, and be myself and everyone would see that and agree with me. It was a nasty shock to find that, as a Dad in a family court, you are a worm! Under everyone's feet. You are a lesser being. There is an army of solicitors and Cafcass officers who view you with suspicion and think you're stealing kids from Mum. They don't see your point of view at all - Mothers rule ok. It's not the real world.
 
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Ash said:
Essentially as well - it depends who you're up against. If your ex has a legal team and you don't you can be at a big disadvantage. As one Dad said - an ex with a solicitor is your worst nightmare. And believe me there will be some nasty dirty tricks.

If she doesn't have legal representation it's an even playing field. If neither of you have representation, Judges can get annoyed because they can't deal with the case properly and can end up fobbing you both off or telling you to go away and have mediation again. Or just writing a woolly order.

Or it could go fairly well - it's uncertain. But if your ex has a solicitor, they will lead you a dance - they won't exchange statements (they'll see yours in advance and you won't see theirs, so they'll change theirs and undermine all your arguments before you even get to court). They'll "forget" to share documents with you. And so on. It's all about winning. Because it's an adversarial system.

Judges themselves do have to comply with the welfare checklist and take that very seriously - and they may weigh some parts of it up more than others depending on the circumstances. Judges can be biased either way as well - but if case law is presented they have to follow that helps prevent the bias.

As another Dad said - it's all a game. And we're the pawns unfortunately - and our kids.

For very wealthy people it's a lot easier - they just hire a top solicitor and barrister team and let them sort out the lot. And then you might be talking about 60k.

They are really tough decisions and financial ones too. The toughest decisions are always about time and money. And time with our kids is important.

The biggest mistake I made, first time round, was thinking I could just be honest, and be myself and everyone would see that and agree with me. It was a nasty shock to find that, as a Dad in a family court, you are a worm! Under everyone's feet. You are a lesser being. There is an army of solicitors and Cafcass officers who view you with suspicion and think you're stealing kids from Mum. They don't see your point of view at all - Mothers rule ok. It's not the real world.
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Well I hear what you are saying but for now I will have my case review and see where I stand as of today, be clear also McKenzies sit in court day in and day out, they see and hear everything, first thing a solicitor will do is speak ill of McKenzies they hate them, but again many of them are very well experienced and know the courts inside out, me I am not wanting 50/50 I fully understand what I am doing and want nothing more than to see my child regularly, I get dirty tricks I get poor judges,

but alot for me is still unknown, after my case review I will have options, but I have been assured the court like anything else is a process to follow, there is a resolve in the end also saying cafcass are on the mothers side I do not believe one bit, they are impartial and can and have access to a lot of professional bodies, their job is safe guarding pure and simple, so I disagree there, if as many men do come accross controlling or angry or entitled, then Cafcass are not going to want that and will air on the side of caution,

we all make mistakes and we have all said stuff we don't mean, but remember you decided to split from this person, and all decision have concequences, with cafcass it might appear that way though on the mothers side, I take the point, a lot has moved on in the courts and all this just takes time, so lets see how it pans out, suck it up buttercup as they say and onwards and upwards.... it does suggest though you get what you pay for ;-)
 
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My ex is refusing to take my son to a contact centre because she disagrees with the “supported contact” direction in the order. She claims is was agreed that it should be “supervised contact” during the first hearing and will not comply with the order until that is resolved.

How do I let the court know she is playing silly beggars?
 
A court form C79 Application related to enforcement of a child arrangements order isn’t necessary mid proceedings but a C2 Application for an Order in Existing Proceedings is needed if your ex is refusing to comply with an interim Child Arrangements Order between hearings and you need to ask the court to enforce it.

The fee is less than the C79's £232 at £167 to submit a C2.
 
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