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Ex relocated - appeal or not, strategy with upcoming hearing

Ash said:
What you really want right now, is the kids back with you, before the hearing in September and a Direction from a Judge to say their school must not be changed until the hearing in September determines things.

It's a vicious circle - the only way they could remain at the same school in September, now your ex has moved, would be if they live with you, and that hasn't been determined yet because the hearing is in September.
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And how would I obtain this, the kids being with me and a direction from a judge to say about the school?
By the way, as I said previously, please note that both councils' schools, here and there, are alerted about the situation. So, ok, maybe her lawyer tricked the system and she can move with the kids, eventually, from now to September, but she still cannot enroll them in a new school! Meaning - in my view - that even if they are with the mother for 15 days in a new city, it can perfectly be seen as an holiday, rather than a reason to remain there, no? The kids lived here for 6 years, in school here for six years, regularly enrolled for the year 2022-2023. Can 15 days of "holiday" change all this?
 
Ash said:
I think you may need to do the appeal if you want any chance of having the kids remaining living with you. To prevent ex enrolling the kids at school and to say they must be returned to you to start school in September pending the hearing in September. She might still refuse to do it.

Either that, or accept that in September they won't be moving the kids back but you can argue for a 50/50 order. Regardless of what Cafcass or the courts say, your ex has already moved, has the kids with her and the hearing isn't until after schools start back. She is legally obliged to send them to school so will do so where she's living.
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Again, kids are regularly enrolled here for the year 2022-2023, both of them. And she cannot change it, at least until the hearing in September. I think this is a good point?
 
Ash said:
don't think there's any point sending her a letter saying she must let you see the kids, because she won't - what's needed is an urgent court intervention in the next week or two before term starts.
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oh, I see their maneuver 🤬 Thanks! Ok, then, please can you explain me a bit more in detail this - "an urgent court intervention"?
 
Ok I'm with you now I think. It's a horrible situation for you. Are you sure she is still in the area with the kids? Being a detective for a moment - why would she commit to a new house somewhere else without knowing she could take the kids with her? If she has witheld the kids until the next hearing, how do you know where they are?

That is good news that local authorities have been alerted that the children are not to be enrolled at a new school until the next hearing. So what happens in September? Are they going to keep going to the old school while she still prevents you seeing them?

I do smell a rat - I might be wrong, but she might have upped and moved. And just breached the order. In fact I'm not sure if she will have breached any orders as the only order so far is overturning the prohibited steps order and a further hearing listed. Was an order made to give to local authorities to say the childrens school mustn't be moved.

Yes your solicitor sounds not to have fought your corner and I have had that horrible experience too - like they're working for the other side - doing nothing. Yes I think if you'd had a barrister at that hearing you'd have had a better result. Or at least a solicitor that would fight your corner, and IME they are like gold dust. I find most solicitors are intrinsically biased towards Mums - and see Dads as "secondary" parents who "want a bit of time". They get paid whether they do a good job or not!

Ok so let me think a minute. If she definitely can't enrol them in a different school then that takes the pressure off a bit and what you're dealing with is her witholding the kids. However she has been given permission to move and could do so at any time.

So what you're saying is - she won't move yet because she can't take the kids with her? My thought is - what if she just did it anyway? Would it be classed as holiday if term has already started? No it would probably be classed as keeping kids out of education!

I think - the court needs to be told she is witholding the kids and there needs to be an urgent directions hearing, before the September hearing - to determine that if the Mother moves, the kids will remain with you and go back to their usual school, until matters are determined at the September hearing, and until the Cafcass report is available as social services determined the current arrangements of 3 to 4 nights a week with you for the welfare of the kids.

I am not a lawyer so I don't know if an appeal would do the same thing. So yes get some legal advice on that. You said you had switched firms - that might not be any better. You can get a free half hour with a solicitor - and do the same with 2 or 3 solicitors! And get advice on that and go with the one who sounds the best. Or just take the advice and do it yourself.

I would save any further monies towards representation at hearings.
 
Ok - so an appeal against the discharge of a prohibited steps order would only be relevant if the original prohibited steps order prevented "Mother moving away with children". If the original prohibited steps order just prevented "Mother moving away" then there is no issue except it's a bit of a grey area if she says the children live with her (and there are no orders to say otherwise - that is residency by default and possession).

Normally a prohibited steps order would "prevent Mother moving away with children". That doesn't prohibit her moving at all - it just prohibits her taking the children - ie she can move but would have to leave the children with you.

So I am thinking either

a) the original prohibited steps order wasn't worded correctly - ie it should have said "with children" or
b) your solicitor didn't do a good enough job at the hearing and then wanted paying more money to try and put it right!

So yes best you got rid of them. The thing is "relocation" is a highly specialised area of family law that barristers are good at and solicitors often aren't up to scratch with. Even if it's just relocation in the Uk.

But if you're confident that the kids can't be moved from their current school (is there anything in an order that actually specifically says that?) then it's a case of

a) waiting for the hearing in September to determine residency and

b) doing something about her witholding the kids now - eg an urgent directions hearing.

If there isn't anything specifically in an order that says the kids can't be moved from their current school before the next hearing then an urgent directions request should also include asking for that.

You can do that yourself. You can just send an email to the court - check which court it is - presumably you know already - phone them and ask for an email address for the families section.

Mark the email header with the Case Number and Urgent directions requested

In the body of the email, something along the lines of:

"Since the prohibited steps order of x date, preventing the Mother moving the children away from the area before the next hearing, a further order has been made overturning the prohibited steps order, and the Mother has now witheld the children, stating they are not to see me before the hearing in September.

I ask the court to list an urgent directions hearing for the welfare of the children, who are known to social services - and indeed it was social services who determined the children should spend 3 to 4 nights a week with me due to welfare issues they found with the Mother (via nursery and school reports).

It may be that the Mother will move now and take the children with her, as the prohibited steps order has been overturned and I have not even seen them for a month which is extremely concerning. And we are still awaiting the results of the Cafcass report.

I ask the court to issue urgent directions stating:
a) The Children must not be moved from their current location or school before the hearing on September xth.
b) The Children will spend time with me from now until the hearing on September xth and have video calls with their Mother every third day at 6pm.

I currently do not have legal representation and request the matter be dealt with by a District Judge".
 
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In other words - don't use the new solicitor yet - email the court yourself. If you don't get an urgent hearing, you might get directions issued - ie an order sent to the Mother.

It can't do any harm and it alerts the court to what is going on.
 
Your concerns are genuine and it will be obvious to the court - when the Mother has witheld the children after a PSO was overturned.
 
Without knowing the wording of the original PSO, can't give an opinion as to whether an appeal is a good idea or not. But I would definitely email the court asking for directions, either way. They can be quite good with things like that. I'd rather deal with a court than a solicitor any day!
 
Just to add. I think you'll need representation for the hearing in September - whether it's a solicitor or a barrister. Especially if you want the kids to stay with you during term time.
 
Ash said:
Are you sure she is still in the area with the kids? Being a detective for a moment - why would she commit to a new house somewhere else without knowing she could take the kids with her? If she has witheld the kids until the next hearing, how do you know where they are?
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I am sure, I had a FaceTime yesterday (nothing scheduled, randomly, less than a minute). The kids are here (and they begged the mother to see me during the call!). At least they were still here yesterday.

Why committing to an house. Because anyway she managed to have the job there (this is where the all situation started from, the fact that out of the blue she rang me one day just saying "I am leaving with the kids, I start a new job in September"), so she must be there anyway, with or without kids, and in any case, she is confident enough that she is going to have everything she wants, as she is very aware of the existing biased justice system, and she is great in manipulation and playing tricks! The result of the last hearing just gave her confirmation of the fact that she can even commit murder (being hyperbolic), but the "justice" will always back her! So she will continue to trick everyone.
 
Ash said:
Just to add. I think you'll need representation for the hearing in September - whether it's a solicitor or a barrister. Especially if you want the kids to stay with you during term time.
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oh, yes, of course, this is already defined. Thanks
 
Ash said:
Without knowing the wording of the original PSO, can't give an opinion as to whether an appeal is a good idea or not.
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Sorry... I don't follow you here.... PSO? (anyway I posted the outcome of the order in the other thread, if this is what you are talking about)
 
Ash said:
n other words - don't use the new solicitor yet - email the court yourself. If you don't get an urgent hearing, you might get directions issued - ie an order sent to the Mother.
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despite it's Sunday, I had a few word with my solicitor. Tomorrow we will prepare the request for urgent hearing. In any case thanks, because I will mention also the possibility of me sending an email myself to the court, as you are saying.
 
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Ash said:
PSO - prohibited steps order :)
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oh, I see! ☺️ well, I am not sure I have it. Let me check.

PS: you are NOT a lawyer? Wow, I think they messed up with you quite a lot, you must have taken a lot of fire to finally become such a badass in this stuff! Wow!!! Hope you sorted out in the best way! Thanks again for your help 🙏 It's being educational and useful, and it will be for the other members with same issues, for sure
 
Yep doesn't look good. The PSO prevented her moving "the Children" - that's all it says. But the PSO was overturned so there is nothing preventing her moving the children! It's a travesty that the PSO was overturned when it did NOT stop the Mother from moving - it stopped her from moving the children - that order was incorrect overturning the PSO - it was not about the Mother's human rights at all.

Although the Judge told your ex solicitor - wait till September to decide about schools - that is not actually stated in the order. There is a contradiction! Contradictions mean loopholes and grey areas. On the one hand it's clear the order overturning the PSO says residency, schools etc will be determined at the September hearing which seems clear nothing can change until then. On the other hand it overturns the PSO which basically gives your ex permission to move the kids.

That's why I think you can't trust her not to move the kids away before the September hearing. We can "hope" she won't do that out of fear of being told by the Judge - wait till September - but. If she did move them there is that loophole and the courts probably wouldn't move them back again.

So you do need urgent "directions" - a Judge can issue directions without there actually being a directions hearing. Whether you do it or your solicitor does it, I would do it
 
Most of us Dads on here have been through the system and learned the hard way - and sometimes had to self rep so you need to gen up then. You would think lawyers would get it right - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. We've all learned the hard way about loopholes, badly worded orders and unclear orders.

I would always say - for a final hearing - take a draft order with you, with the wording set out in detail exactly as you want it to say - clear and no loopholes or confusion (eg when do the school holidays start? End of term or first Friday or first monday?).

My first order was absolutely shoddy - and I used a solicitor, knowing nothing about the legal process. I trusted what I was told on the day would be in a court order. When the court order came it was not what I had been told on the day, badly written and actually gave the Mother a residency order she didn't have before! It was also not enforceable. Result being I had to go back to court again a year later, which cost a small fortune, to get a better order, properly worded (because as soon as my ex found out it wasn't enforceable she ignored it).

Apparently Cafcass wrote the first order, I found out later - and my ex had been badgering them after the hearing.

At my next application, ironically, Cafcass criticised the previous order and blamed the Judge! Who was not happy about that.

The other thing to be aware of is - after a final hearing, don't agree to "Solicitors drawing up the order later" - that leads to ex solicitor refusing to approve the wording, running up a load more legal bills and possibly even a need for a further hearing to determine the order wording.

Instruct a lawyer that the order must be done on the day, at the hearing, and left at the court for sealing, on the day - none of this writing it up afterwards. If you have a draft order and the Judge approves it - fine - that can just be done as a full order on lawyer's laptop, on the day, and left at court for sealing.
 
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Personally I would email the court yourself and save on solicitor costs. Then use the solicitor as and when needed. As Proud Dad on here once recommended - you can use a "tailored" approach. Do some bits yourself, a solicitor for some bits (eg preparing the bundle and exchanging statements) and a direct access barrister for a hearing or whatever.

You also need to instruct solicitors in writing, what you want them to do and not do - otherwise they will read everything sent to them and reply to everything and run up bills. You could for example instruct the solicitor not to reply to any correspondence received at this stage but just to forward it to you. And say you would like to use them for advice, preparing the statement and bundle and do some paperwork yourself, with their advice, to save costs.

You'll need to decide if you want to use them, or someone else for the hearing.
 
All sorts of things are "said" in hearings, but unless they're in an order they get forgotten and disappear into the ether, by the time of the next hearing.
 
Ash said:
So you do need urgent "directions" - a Judge can issue directions without there actually being a directions hearing. Whether you do it or your solicitor does it, I would do it
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I will, absolutely! Thanks. Indeed there are many contradictions, and the justice didn't work well at all, as who is creating this grey areas is the Court, in the reality! And who takes advantage of grey areas are normally dishonest people. In this case, my ex!
 
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