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Ex relocated - appeal or not, strategy with upcoming hearing
- Thread starter Fabio78
- Start date
This outcome was a shock for everyone, me, my solicitor, my relative and friends, and everyone I talk about it. Well, her solicitor just said: "this order is draconian of the right of movement of my client" , and finally the court, composed of a jusdge and three female magistrates, without mentioning not even once the children, which were the reason why the order was requested, decided as following: "this court order is indeed against the human rights of the mother!" ....... really???? Was her solicitor very good? was my solicitor very bad? Was the presence of three female magistrates? Well, I don't know.... but this was what happened!
Look, if I knew that the kids are ok with her, I would not mind! But as I explained in other threads, she already had issues with the school of the boy here, and the nursery of the girl, both alerting on her neglecting behaviours towards the kids. So, apart from everything I can say, there are two institutions who raised concerns! I mean, it's not even me saying, it's the school and the nursery of the children who raised concerns, too!
Ok - so you have some evidence (presumably a social services report) over concerns re the kids. So the Judge said it's her human right to move (that's the law) and the hearing in September is to determine child arrangements. Did he say the kids would move as well? If he only said she could move, then that's not so bad. If he said determine Child Arrangements in September that might mean who they live with after she moves. Unless Judge agreed she could move the kids too, then the hearing in September would be about a new Child Arrangements order for the kids to see you.
It's quite an important point to know before the hearing in September. Has the ex been given permission to move "with the kids". It might be assumed if the current order says the kids live with her.
Anyway - as she has already moved and taken the kids with her then I don't think they will change that. The hearing in September will be about child arrangements for the children to see you now she's moved and you should be asking for 50/50 shared care. If you have concrete evidence of welfare issues with the ex you should be asking for residency (and might have to negotiate down to 50/50). My experience of social services is them saying "that's historic" - ie not relevant any more.
So right now I think I would wait and see what the Cafcass letter says - then take it from there.
Yes you can email the court before the hearing if there's an important update. It would need to be very brief and just updating the situation - it might not change anything before the September hearing, but there have been occasions where a Judge has issued directions to say the Mother must follow the court order meanwhile. Then if she doesn't she will not get a favourable response at the hearing.
I would just do it yourself. If there's no response, fine. If there is a response from the court then the Solicitor will be surprised that you've made something happen, but it will be helpful. When you're using a solicitor they have their own ways of doing things. Yes they need to write to her firmly and tell her she must let you see the children. It's worth a try.
Yes you can ask for an interim order but nothing will happen till the hearing in September. That's when any interim order will be made. But - it might not be relevant. I was assuming you didn't have a court order at all when I said that. From what you said earlier,. you've applied to court before and already had a court order before she moved - is that right? If so - she should be following that! The fact she's already moved doesn't mean the arrangements for the summer holidays should be any different to the current order.
The outcome will probably be, now the Judge has said she can move, that they will order every other week-end and half the holidays with you. It's a long time to wait a fortnight with long journeys and your ex will manipulate things as the kids get older and say they have plans at week-ends or something. So I think you want to be asking for 50/50. The only way to achieve that with the distance is most of the school holidays with you and term time with her. It's a long shot but worth a try.
It's quite an important point to know before the hearing in September. Has the ex been given permission to move "with the kids". It might be assumed if the current order says the kids live with her.
Anyway - as she has already moved and taken the kids with her then I don't think they will change that. The hearing in September will be about child arrangements for the children to see you now she's moved and you should be asking for 50/50 shared care. If you have concrete evidence of welfare issues with the ex you should be asking for residency (and might have to negotiate down to 50/50). My experience of social services is them saying "that's historic" - ie not relevant any more.
So right now I think I would wait and see what the Cafcass letter says - then take it from there.
Yes you can email the court before the hearing if there's an important update. It would need to be very brief and just updating the situation - it might not change anything before the September hearing, but there have been occasions where a Judge has issued directions to say the Mother must follow the court order meanwhile. Then if she doesn't she will not get a favourable response at the hearing.
I would just do it yourself. If there's no response, fine. If there is a response from the court then the Solicitor will be surprised that you've made something happen, but it will be helpful. When you're using a solicitor they have their own ways of doing things. Yes they need to write to her firmly and tell her she must let you see the children. It's worth a try.
Yes you can ask for an interim order but nothing will happen till the hearing in September. That's when any interim order will be made. But - it might not be relevant. I was assuming you didn't have a court order at all when I said that. From what you said earlier,. you've applied to court before and already had a court order before she moved - is that right? If so - she should be following that! The fact she's already moved doesn't mean the arrangements for the summer holidays should be any different to the current order.
The outcome will probably be, now the Judge has said she can move, that they will order every other week-end and half the holidays with you. It's a long time to wait a fortnight with long journeys and your ex will manipulate things as the kids get older and say they have plans at week-ends or something. So I think you want to be asking for 50/50. The only way to achieve that with the distance is most of the school holidays with you and term time with her. It's a long shot but worth a try.
No no, this is the original hearing that will decide where the kids are going to stay (do not know the exact legal term in English), and for which cafcass is working. This is the main hearing from the beginning.
(the one that already happened was required by her lawyer to remove the restriction of moving away. And he made it! The question is exaclty if it is convenient or not to appeal to this decision, namely, if my appeal would have any influence on the main hearing about the custody of the kids?)
It sounds like her solicitor appealed the order. The trouble is the law is complicated and lawyers use case law to argue their points. There is solid case law about the Mother's human rights to live wherever she wants. It's the nastiest trick in the book when they move further away to disrupt things. I believe there has been new case law but it's a very tricky area. Almost impossible to prevent a Mother moving and even a good Judge would only leave the kids with you if it was proven to be a deliberately disruptive move, or there were proven welfare issues. They can't stop her moving - they can only stop the kids being moved - which is a transfer of residency basically. Or - a 50/50 order.
You have grounds to appeal if there are safeguarding issues. But you need to prove she is unsafe with the kids and that means evidence. Do you have any social services reports, school incident reports, anything on paper that proves the kids are at risk of harm or neglect? When were social services last involved?
Is September hearing listed as a final hearing?
You have grounds to appeal if there are safeguarding issues. But you need to prove she is unsafe with the kids and that means evidence. Do you have any social services reports, school incident reports, anything on paper that proves the kids are at risk of harm or neglect? When were social services last involved?
Is September hearing listed as a final hearing?
Exaclty!!! But this is exactly what I am going to ask in the main hearing in September, which will decide on the custody o fthe kids, and where I will provide the arguments I mentioned above. And this is exactly my question: since an hearing on the custody of the kids is going to happen anyway, is it worth to appeal on the decision of the court to remove the prohibited steps order?
Posted at the same time. So September hearing is about the "custody" of the kids - I don;'t think there's any point appealing the order she can move - personally. The main focus should be on - who are the kids going to live with? To get residency transferred to you so the kids live with you and "spend time with" their Mother it would need hard evidence that there are safety issues.
I think I would be tempted to ditch the solicitor and get a direct access barrister for the September hearing and have a consultation with them first. The cost will be about the same. A good one charges about 4k for a full day hearing and about 1k for a consultation. Once you've had the consultation though, they will deal with you by email occasionally, when necessary and give advice. They will write position statements for you and prepare a skeleton argument and represent you in court - but they won't do all the solicitor side of things (paperwork). Like writing your statement, exchanging documents etc. Any correspondence you'd either have to email her solicitor directly or ignore any emails her solicitor sends.
However hard it is not seeing the kids now, this upcoming hearing is important.
Your case sounds quite complex with the relocation aspect and the welfare issues. What region of the country do you live in?
I think I would be tempted to ditch the solicitor and get a direct access barrister for the September hearing and have a consultation with them first. The cost will be about the same. A good one charges about 4k for a full day hearing and about 1k for a consultation. Once you've had the consultation though, they will deal with you by email occasionally, when necessary and give advice. They will write position statements for you and prepare a skeleton argument and represent you in court - but they won't do all the solicitor side of things (paperwork). Like writing your statement, exchanging documents etc. Any correspondence you'd either have to email her solicitor directly or ignore any emails her solicitor sends.
However hard it is not seeing the kids now, this upcoming hearing is important.
Your case sounds quite complex with the relocation aspect and the welfare issues. What region of the country do you live in?
Posted at the same time again. Ok so I think there are two separate things that kind of conflict. Appealing against her moving is to stop her moving the kids away. The alternative is to have residency - ie the kids remain living with you, the Mother moving away and she can see them every other week-end and half the holidays! I can see why you're feeling confused at solicitor advice.
I would get a consultation with a barrister - put the situation to them and take their advice on what next. Start drafting something to send by email to a Barrister, so it explains everything but is as concise as possible.
I would also be confused in this situation. Yes you could appeal the decision for ex to move - but she's already moved! What that would be about would be - bringing the kids back. Which a residency order could also do.
The trouble is - possession is 9/10ths of the law and she has already moved, with the kids. the "easy" option for a court would be say - it's done now - they can see Dad every other week-end and half the holidays (or 50/50 if you're lucky, push hard and have a good barrister). But it sounds like you need to be going for residency due to the welfare issues.
The trouble there is the court allowed that move without considering/knowing about welfare issues. It was a legal point that determined one issue without looking at the whole picture.
I'll have a think on this. It's the week-end now - you can't do much till Monday.
I think though, personally I would
a) email the court politely and formally, for the attention of the Judge and say that the Mother has moved, is refusing to allow the children to see you at all and not following the order, you haven't seen them for a month, there have been previous welfare concerns and ask the Judge for directions. And see what happens. the directions might just be something to say - it'll be dealt with at the September hearing.
Before doing that I need to know what the current Child Arrangements order says. Do they live with the Mother, and spend time with you and what percentage of the time and when should they have been with you over the summer holidays? And actually didn't you say on another thread you'd also applied for a specific issues order over holidays and they said no can do until Cafcass report?
b) Get a consultation with a barrister - they're not all the same or good though so try and get a recommendation (other Dads on here or I might have a name in your area).
c) Decide whether to or when to disinstruct the Solicitors and stop using/paying them.
If you can afford both a solicitor and a barrister that's good but most people can't. I think you'll have most success with a direct access barrister. Especially for advice. Solicitors mainly just write letters.
I would get a consultation with a barrister - put the situation to them and take their advice on what next. Start drafting something to send by email to a Barrister, so it explains everything but is as concise as possible.
I would also be confused in this situation. Yes you could appeal the decision for ex to move - but she's already moved! What that would be about would be - bringing the kids back. Which a residency order could also do.
The trouble is - possession is 9/10ths of the law and she has already moved, with the kids. the "easy" option for a court would be say - it's done now - they can see Dad every other week-end and half the holidays (or 50/50 if you're lucky, push hard and have a good barrister). But it sounds like you need to be going for residency due to the welfare issues.
The trouble there is the court allowed that move without considering/knowing about welfare issues. It was a legal point that determined one issue without looking at the whole picture.
I'll have a think on this. It's the week-end now - you can't do much till Monday.
I think though, personally I would
a) email the court politely and formally, for the attention of the Judge and say that the Mother has moved, is refusing to allow the children to see you at all and not following the order, you haven't seen them for a month, there have been previous welfare concerns and ask the Judge for directions. And see what happens. the directions might just be something to say - it'll be dealt with at the September hearing.
Before doing that I need to know what the current Child Arrangements order says. Do they live with the Mother, and spend time with you and what percentage of the time and when should they have been with you over the summer holidays? And actually didn't you say on another thread you'd also applied for a specific issues order over holidays and they said no can do until Cafcass report?
b) Get a consultation with a barrister - they're not all the same or good though so try and get a recommendation (other Dads on here or I might have a name in your area).
c) Decide whether to or when to disinstruct the Solicitors and stop using/paying them.
If you can afford both a solicitor and a barrister that's good but most people can't. I think you'll have most success with a direct access barrister. Especially for advice. Solicitors mainly just write letters.
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But in fact I do not want to create any obstacle to her move. She can go whatever she wants, to say it in practical terms! She can perfectly go, and I will even support her and facilitate access to the children. But I don't think the kids should go with her, this is what I don't want, for the reasons I mentioned.
As I said, there are the incidents and the report of the nursery, and the concerns raised by the school, both about negligence of the mother. And now the episode of her keeping me away from the children for no reason. This are the evidence that comes from third parts. Then I have all my own arguments, pictures, videos, etc. But I think that I will focus on the concerns raised by the nursery and the school, as they are third parts?
I've just merged your two threads as they're basically all on the same topic and it's easier for people to follow and reply 
So this thread can include everything that's happened so far - the prohibited steps, the decisions now and the hearing coming up and the strategies.
So this thread can include everything that's happened so far - the prohibited steps, the decisions now and the hearing coming up and the strategies.
What I was going to say is - there is a possibility of a two pronged attack - an appeal against her moving and a hearing to determine who the children live with. But it could work out contradictory. You definitely don't want the children being moved away and the appeal would cover that and may support the hearing as to who the children live with - or it may confuse issues. As I said - I'll have a think about it!
yep. Well, it would not be complex if the other part would be honest, and care for the best interest of the children, rather than her own agenda and social status (she doesn't accept to give me the kids mainly because she is convinced that this would affect negatively the image of perfect woman/professional/mother that she tried desperately to create, despite being everything fake). Well, I am based in Birmingham
Ok. I don't know any in Birmingham. If anyone knows a good direct access barrister in Birmingham, please send Fabio a direct message.
However, some Barristers will travel. Is it a face to face hearing in September? (I expect so with the stakes so high).
However, some Barristers will travel. Is it a face to face hearing in September? (I expect so with the stakes so high).