Guest viewing is limited

Ex relocated - appeal or not, strategy with upcoming hearing

Fabio78

Fabio78

New member
Member
Hi guys,

I’m new here and thank you in advance for your help, because I feel like I’m living a nightmare! Well, my ex-wife is simply denying any access to my kids for one month now, just out of spite, and apparently no one can do anything about it, until the hearing?

A bit of context: two months ago my ex-wife suddenly informed me that she was leaving with the kids, three hours from where we live. I used to spend 4 nights with the kids at that time. I was happy for her and the job, but didn’t agree on the relocation of the kids, for a matter of stability and emotional wellbeing (and also because, sorry to say so, but I grew them up so far, for she isn't able to take care properly). Unfortunately as always she did not even listen to my arguments, so we didn’t reach an agreement, so I had to involve the solicitors and eventually the court. The hearing is going to be in September. PROBLEM: In the main time, merely out of spite she decided to keep the children with her (we even had a travel to Italy planned), while before they spent with me 4 nights a week. I haven’t seen or heard from them in almost a month now, and the only video call they made, my 3-year-old daughter started crying, begging her mother to be with me. What a nightmare! I, on the other hand, can not call them because her lawyer informed me that she "does not like to be contacted" (!!!) and any attempt will be considered harassment (Jesus, is that easy?)! So how am I going to see my children? The hearing is scheduled for September, so social workers, police and my solicitor tell me that until then there is little to do to see my children again. But how is that possible??????????? What about my rights, and, in particular, the rights of the children to stay with their father? Who is going to pay for the damages this is causing to us? Either I haven’t found the right lawyers, or it is true that I can’t do anything? Guys, I am literally getting crazy. Please help!
 
Hi

What you describe isn't uncommon. Just wait for the hearing and give her no ammunition in the meantime.

The Mother is meant to keep contact open so if the lawyer has put that in writing it's probably a good thing for you.
 
Roblox said:
Hi

What you describe isn't uncommon. Just wait for the hearing and give her no ammunition in the meantime.

The Mother is meant to keep contact open so if the lawyer has put that in writing it's probably a good thing for you.
Click to expand...
not only the lawyer put in writing, but I have her message sent one month ago where she "announced me" that I will not see the kids until the hearing, because she decided so. After that message I stop any contact with her, even if it breaks my heart every second spent far from my kids. But obviously will not try to call or reach her. No "ammunitions"! I am crazy for my kids, but I am not stupid. Thanks a lot for your comment
 
Last edited:
Hi guys,
and thank you in advance for your help. Would like to request opinions on action to undertake with regards to an outcome of the court.

Context:
Two months ago my ex-wife suddenly informed me that she was leaving with the kids, three hours from where we live. I was happy for her and the job, but didn’t agree on the relocation of the kids, for a matter of stability and emotional wellbeing. She acted unreasonably as always, so I needed to ask the intervention of the court, and the hiring will be in September.

Problem:
In this context, my solicitor suggested also to request an immediate court order to stop her unilateral decision to take away the kids, as it was possible for her taking the kids away before September. In the beginning the court stopped her indeed, but then her solicitor request to cancel the court order, and incredibly the court decided that she could go away, even without cafcass assessment or any decision on the safeguarding on the children. A shocking outcome, that just create more confusion, conflict and anxiety (she can move, and in fact she will, but she cannot enroll the kids in new schools, for example.
(The answer of the judge when both my solicitor and her solicitor raised this issue was: "well, just try to find an agreement!".... really?????)!

My question:
Considering that the main hearing is going to happen - as planned from the beginning - on September, legally/strategically speaking is there any advantage for me in appealing against the decision of the court to let her go in the main time? My solicitor said we should do it, but she also asked me 5000 pounds for it!!! Well, I would even sell one of my kidneys for my kids, that's not a problem, but I need to understand whether the investment is worth it or not.

(Hope the context and the question are clear enough. I am not native English speaker, so all these legal terms are just making me more crazy.)
 
I am really sorry you're going through this - I've read your other posts. It's absolute hell. What did you ask for on your court application?

Solicitors can be a waste of time and money and run up bills and write stupid letters that don't mean anything. Emails to and from your ex are best evidence but you need to be very very careful now because she might accuse you of harrassment if you contact her directly. In which case you might need the odd solicitors letter sending. Solicitors are allowed to contact each other! Your ex's solicitor is working for your ex. Unfortunately solicitors act for their clients and not in the best interests of the kids and she will use every dirty trick in the book to win the case for your ex. It's sickening.

The courts however, work in the best interests of the child, so it's slightly easier when it gets into court.

A few questions:

What reason has your ex given for stopping you seeing the kids?
Have you received a copy of her C7 and what does it say? (The C7 is her response to your C100 application and the court should send you a copy).
Have you had the Cafcass phone call yet?
Has your ex moved now?
Could you move closer to where she lives?
Did you ask for an interim order in your application? If not, send a position statement 10 days before the hearing, asking for an interim order. You need to do a position statement anyway.

Assume you have if the hearing is next month. It's absolute hell but September is not that far away. And yes the kids will be going through hell as well - but try not to worry - they bounce back once things are resolved. They will know you are trying to fix things because your ex has probably said something about court.

Your ex will look pretty bad for witholding the kids for no reason. As I mentioned on another thread - you can't really accuse her of any abuse unless you have hard evidence and back up from social services. "Bad parenting" is seen as ok or "different parenting styles".

So the process is:

You've put in your application, Cafcass do phone calls with both of you and write a report with recommendations (safeguarding checks).
You get a hearing date - September.
In the mean time no one can make your ex do anything, except possibly by solicitor negotiation but if she refuses - nothing you can do.

However, if your ex has a criminal record of drug use or violent behaviour and you have serious concerns, you could contact social services or the police. But then she will probably accuse you of harrassment again or worse (and could get you arrested) which could slow matters up and make them even more complex. Have social services been involved with the kids before? If not, and you have no evidence they're in danger, it's a case of waiting.

But - what I would do is email the court and let them know that the Mother is refusing to allow the children to see you at all, for no good reason other than a disagreement between parents, and it's been over a month now.

It won't change anything but the court is aware in advance of the situation.

Before the hearing you can send in a position statement. This updates "the position" since your application - eg what has happened in the meantime and an opportunity to point out anything or ask for anything at that time. Eg to ask for an interim order at first hearing.

You will know better what to put in the position statement once you've had the Cafcass safeguarding letter back. Have you had that yet?
 
The process then is - providing your ex hasn't made some horrific allegations against you, you should get an interim order to see the kids until final hearing - it should be for the same time as before - 4 nights a week - unless the distance prevents that, then it's likely to be every other week-end for now.

If you've also made allegations, Cafcass may want to do a section 7 report which can take a few months and delay matters. They'll also maybe want to do this if only your ex has made allegations but they may dismiss her allegations if they're stupid ridiculous ones and when there's a history of you having parented for ages and no issues.

Worst case scenario is - your ex makes allegations and you only get time in a contact centre once a week until the matter is finalised.

But that's why you need to play the game, tread carefully, be polite and courteous in all court dealings (you can still be firm and assertive though) to get to the end and get a good order - what you don't want is delays, lots of extra hearings etc.

If both sides have made allegations they may order a fact finding hearing.

We're all here to support you through it. Is the hearing early or late or mid September?

The anger frustration and emotional torture is hell - it's your ex that's causing it - feel angry at her but channel it on here and avoid the temptation to shout at court people! You want them onside. I'm a firm believer in a well written position statement being influential.
 
Ok so did you apply for a prohibited steps order to prevent her moving the kids? The court made one and the other side managed to cancel it?

Usually an urgent prohibited steps order to prevent her moving the kids, is a temporary order, pending a further hearing. I'm not sure how her solicitor could cancel an order without a further hearing.

Relocation is a tricky area in family law. The Mother's human rights to live where she wants, conflict with the child's rights to significant and regular time with both parents. Usually though, they let her move. If she has a new job lined up that's a valid reason to move. However what should have happened was redoing the Child Arrangements order so the kids still spend plenty of time with you.

Yes courts just want agreement but that's not helpful - if they'd ordered mediation that would be helpful.

I can't say for sure whether you should appeal when I'm not sure if a final order was made or another order overturned, but your solicitor seems to think it's appealable.

It might help to look at the options:

1) You agree to the move on the basis a new shared care order is made whereby the kids spend Monday to Friday with her, 3 week-ends out of four with you and additional holiday time with you. And transport is shared out equally. Even that though, means week-ends hard to achieve with a 3.5 to 4 hour journey. She won't agree to that so it would need a court hearing anyway.

2) You appeal (or apply to court - you have a hearing in September - what's that one? An appeal) and say if the Mother wishes to move 3.5 to 4 hours away, the kids should remain living with you midweek and additional holidays with the Mother and she can do all the collections and drop offs (ie leave it up to her if she wants all that hassle and whether it's worth moving).

What it comes down to is - if she moves - how do child arrangements work? I think a court would generally allow her to move and change the kids school if she's moving for a genuine reason (a job). If it can be proved she has no good reason to move that far away and it's just an attempt to disrupt the kids relationship with you, then number 2 is more of a possibility.

I can't say much more till I know what the hearing in September is for and what the current order is for. You said the kids were spending 4 nights a week with you - was that court ordered? And was the order for "lives with both parents" or "lives with Mother and spends time with you"?

As it stands it sounds like the court have given her permission to move - you can appeal that decision or you can ask for a change of Child Arrangements. Chances are once she's moved and the kids have started a new school in September, they won't move them back.

I had something similar. Judge decided my ex wasn't really going to move and was just winding me up (which deterred her from moving and it was sorted with an undertakijg to have mediation before changing anything - ie giving me warning to apply for a further prohibited steps if necessary).
 
Thanks a lot for your emphatic and useful comment, Ash... Yes, an authentic hell, indeed!
Well, let me answer you hereafter in detail. Thanks again, i really, really appreciate! :)
 
Just to add - if there was already a court order in place from previously it would be assumed there were no safeguarding issues (that would have been dealt with via your first application for the original order).

I still don't quite understand how her solicitor got the court to change the order allowing her to move. Was that done at a hearing? Surely not just by writing to the court.

It's a dilemma when the solicitor is going to charge so much and you don't know if you have a chance. That's why I'm thinking - what options would there be if she actually did move? Surely the court would amend any previous order for time to ensure a child Arrangements order still worked at a distance?

Your hearing in September sounds quite crucial - is this the appeal or another hearing?
 
Ash said:
What reason has your ex given for stopping you seeing the kids?
Click to expand...
No reason. at all. Just out of spite. I do not know what she is planning, but I have her message on 23 of July just saying: "as you put the case in the court, now you will see the kids only after the decision of the court". That's all. Obviously I suppose that she will defend herself with more malicious statements, but truth is that we had absolutely no argue, nothing that can prove any allegation. She just reacted for revenge after receiving the letter of the court. Indeed, the message she sent is exactly around the time the postman is at home. After that message I had no more contacts with her.
 
Ash said:
Have you received a copy of her C7 and what does it say? (The C7 is her response to your C100 application and the court should send you a copy).
Click to expand...
not yes, honestly! Just a brief note, to double check that I explained everything clearly: this first hearing was requested by her solicitor, to stop the court order related to her relocation, until the decision of the court about the safeguard of the children, that will be in September. But no, I did not receive anything in relation to this, even if I know what the judge said:" we cannot stop the mother to go whatever she wants, because it is against her human rights. About the children, we will decide in September". But no one at any time mentioned that I could not stay with my kids in the main time.
 
Ash said:
Have you had the Cafcass phone call yet?
Click to expand...
yes, and in this call I did exactly what you suggested in the other message you sent, that is, I show myself extremely open even to support the mother of the kids on her job, and on her relationship with the kids, but with regard to the children, I explained why in my opinion their best interest is to remain here.

(I will copy and paste here what I wrote in the other thread, for clarity and benefit of other members who are reading):

Now, since the matter here is the relocation of the kids, my arguments is the STABILITY of the kids, who were born and raised here. The mother's priority is the money, her status quo, and the career. Fine to me, I will even support her, but there is no need to involve the kids in her running after money, if they can remain exactly where they are, where they have all their friends and relationships, and have their father who actively support this stability since -on the contrary- my decision is to prioritize the kids over the career (I also had important professional invitations, from Dubai, etc, but I declined always to stay near my kids).

In this sense, my arguments were also the inability of the mother to take good care of the kids, namely, she was reported for neglicent behaviour and insecure driving to the social worker from the nursery of my daughter (and as a response, she fought with the director of the nursery and withdrawn my girl from the nursery without even consulting me). And the school of my son alerted about the very high number of absences of my son while he is with the mother.

Then, as further evidence, there’s a whole series of disrespected appointments to the dentists, videos and picture of the signs she left on the boy when she hit him (and witness); the incapacity to administer medicines to children safely and appropriately, etc. beyond the fact that she was able to convince my little son that any woman that is with me will ""kill him using chocolate", so still today my son has nightmares and gets anxious even if I talk by phone to my sister!

Now, there is this long month during which I did not see the kids, I had some random FaceTime, during which my sister cried asking the mother to see me, and she just cut the phone. I will not use the expression "parental alienation", ok, but by acting this way obviously she is giving me one more argument to use in the hiring on September. That is, why I can guarantee that I proactively promote an healthy relationship with both father and mother, she is promoting exactly the contrary.
 
Last edited:
Ash said:
Could you move closer to where she lives?
Click to expand...
The answer is: in general, yes. Thought, considering that I should be at work at least 3 times a week, and it will be 3 hours far from there, it will be extremely expensive and logistically complicated. But obviously, who cares? If necessary I would do it. As I mentioned, my children are my "main mission" in life. I would do everything to stay at their side, particularly at this age (6 and 3).
 
Last edited:
Ash said:
Did you ask for an interim order in your application? If not, send a position statement 10 days before the hearing, asking for an interim order. You need to do a position statement anyway.
Click to expand...
No! And this is one of the most frustrating point with my solicitor. I mean, honestly, I am literally begging my solicitor in the last two weeks to do so, but they are procrastinating, saying they still want to contact her solicitor, send other letters, and bla bla bla..... Jesus, it's so frustrating! Now, for example, we will have a meeting next Monday, to talk about a letter that they want to send to her to say that if she doesn't let me see the kids, they will accuse her of parental alienation. But.... WHY? Why they just do not ask immediately for an interim order???? I don't understand what is going on!
 
Ash said:
But - what I would do is email the court and let them know that the Mother is refusing to allow the children to see you at all, for no good reason other than a disagreement between parents, and it's been over a month now.
Click to expand...
Can you please explain me this better? Am I allowed to approach directly the court? How?
 
Ash said:
You will know better what to put in the position statement once you've had the Cafcass safeguarding letter back. Have you had that yet?
Click to expand...
No, but I will contact them on Monday to ask for it, and to refer the current situation, also.
 
Ash said:
If you've also made allegations, Cafcass may want to do a section 7 report which can take a few months and delay matters.
Click to expand...
They already told me they are going to suggest this. So, potentially I will not see the kids for months????
 
Ash said:
But that's why you need to play the game, tread carefully, be polite and courteous in all court dealings (you can still be firm and assertive though) to get to the end and get a good order - what you don't want is delays, lots of extra hearings etc.
Click to expand...
Absolutely! Thanks for reinforcing this
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top