enforcement order with parent alienation advice

[Rachel997]

This is true, the cafcass officer explained all of this and the fact that teenagers are difficult without all of this going on. They did say their distress is not reflective of the lived experience and that they are very concerned about the emotional wellbeing of the children.
They explained that they may make decisions for the children that are in their best interest and not necessarily what they want. I think what helps us is that my partner had a brilliant relationship with them and he can evidence that.

 

[Ash]

Just reading back - your situation risks becoming intractible - the more things get dragged out, the older the kids get and then it becomes entrenched.

Would you consider asking for either psychologists reports or an Independent Social Worker report? I think you'd be more likely to get psychologists reports but they are very expensive. It would be a way of having high level evidence to say the ex is alienating, and achieving transfer of residency.

Just my opinion. The psychologist reports would be on both parents, not the kids.

 

[Rachel997]

We thought the same and asked the cafcass officer about this and was told they aren’t stable enough to go through that process at present. It feels so overwhelming at the min but it does feel like finally someone is on their side and is seeing the damage that’s being done.

 

[Ash]

Not the kids no - they shouldn't have to go through any process. But I see what you mean. If it was an ISW they would talk to the kids as well. So psychologists report would be better - the psychologist would just assess both parents. They can diagnose personality disorder, alienation (or both) and recommend a transfer of residency if they determine those things. A psychologist report is about the highest level evidence you can get - or to prove alienation, and holds more weight than Cafcass.

It's that kind of comment - the kids are too unstable for anything else - that makes me concerned it might lead to the alienator's plan of - just leave the kids with Mum they are too distressed by everything. When it's the ex causing the distress.

It really does get to be all or nothing. Transfer of residency or the court faffing about not knowing what to do, time passes and then the easy option is to say - kids have had enough, leave them with Mum they're old enough to decide for themselves.

It's a tough situation - I've been there but mine was younger - I couldn't afford psychologists reports but had a good barrister and thankfully my ex was gobby enough to drop herself in it (on paper anyway). Plus a SW did pick up he'd been coached.

I might have found the money for them if the case hadn't been resolved without them. But you're talking £7,000 to £10,000 for psychologist reports. There is one in particular who specialises in PA and they charge about 20k!

 

[Peanut 21]

Part of me feels like this cafcass officer knows something is going on and it may be best for the kids and you and your partner to let them work with the kids to get to the bottom of it. Hopefully they're hot on PA.
My concern with adding in ISW and psychologists is that they may say different to the cafcass officer, which then supercedes their advice.
This happened in my partners case. The psychologist interviewed the kids as well as the parents. If the alienator is clever they blind the 'specialists'.
The cafcass officer picked up on the mother causing anxiety and the cause of my SD acting the way she was. Once specialists were involved her line of thinking was railroaded.

 

[Rachel997]

Thanks, that’s really interesting. We both have the gut feeling that the cafcass officer knows something is going on and is looking for more time with the children to figure it out.
We were keen on a psychologists report but we just can afford it.
Someone put it nicely to us today though - it feels like cafcass are looking for evidence of alienation rather than evidence of what the mother is saying to children (that the father has been abusive).
The section 7 has demonstrated the mother has lied so the cafcass officer has that awareness of her now and they will be the one carrying out the further contact with the children.

 

[coggers1980]

Yes you do another position statement. A position statement "updates the position" so it's anything that has happened since the last one, plus anything else you want to say. It specifically seems to be asking for proposals for child arrangements ongoing.

So I would write a new one. You can include anything you want from the previous one but I wouldn't copy and paste directly. You can also update that the Mother failed to attend the enforcement hearing.

My concern about this situation is it's being dragged out. The Magistrates may have been nice but delay is harmful to the child. A section 7 will take ages!

I think I'd be looking at submitting a C2 for an urgent directions hearing with a District Judge saying the Mother must attend the hearing. And request that, at the C2 she is required to follow the existing order.

If she doesn't turn up at that one, then you could ask for transfer of residency maybe. There was a case a while back where a Mother failed to attend 3 hearings and actually refused, and the Judge transferred residency.

My concern is the timescale. You haven't seen the kids for 6 months. It could be another 6 months by the time a section 7 is done and another hearing and by then no one will remember what those Magistrates said. Cafcass could well say the children are happy and doing well in the Mother's care and recommend gradual progression again (which the ex will probably disrupt).

You don't want this dragging on for years and the children becoming alienated.

I will have a think about this but I wouldn't just accept going away and waiting for a Section 7 report when the Mother didn't attend an enforcement hearing.

Another option, if submitting a C2 is to submit a part 25 application for an Independent Social Worker. This costs money of course. Could be about £2,000. They can do the Section 7 much quicker and are experts in saying if there is alienation (which frankly, Cafcass are not). It could all be done within a couple of months and maybe even a recommendation to transfer residency if the Mother doesn't comply with orders.

I think it needs dealing with robustly. As the alienating parent, she is happily getting on with her life for up to a year or more, while you are waiting and losing.

Would you write a position statement as a LIP, even when not specifically asked to buy the judge?

 

[Rachel997]

We did for the first hearing and weren’t instructed. But it made a big difference and I would recommend it.
We have been instructed this time as it’s a DRA hearing and have been instructed to complete a 4 page statement.
We have been LIP throughout this process

 

[Peanut 21]

Would you write a position statement as a LIP, even when not specifically asked to buy the judge?

Yes. As a LIP or represented you can write a PS. The worst they can say is that it wasn't requested.

 

[Ash]

You can always submit a position statement for every hearing, whether requested or not. It’s informal really and “updates the position” plus you can add anything eise you want to say/ask for at that particular time. Think of it as a note to the Judge which speaks for you in advance so you have less to remember to say at the hearing. In fact barristers sometimes just call it “Note”

 

[Rachel997]

hey guys,
so we had our DRA for the enforcement order recently.
im so confused by the legal system. so the CAFCASS S7 recommendation was ordered which was good but we are still before magistrates and desperately need this before a DJ. we have been told at the previous hearing that the case had merit but just to hold on to be told at the most recent that it doesn't have any merit.
its a parental alienation case (identified by court and CAFCASS, she has not engaged with 2 hearings, there is abuse concerns AND we've proved her lying to CAFCASS about an incident to the children and CAFCASS are onboard with our version of events)
I just don't get it!
we want to appeal the decision not to put before a DJ - are we able to do this without undoing the other outcomes of the hearing?

 

[coggers1980]

My case sounds similar.

Was before Mags and they decided that as it was complex that they kicked it up to a judge. Waste of a hearing and further 6 weeks until next hearing.

How you go about getting it heard by a judge prior to the actual hearing, I've no idea tbh.

 

[Rachel997]

It’s mad isn’t it….and exhausting

 

[lunico93x]

hey guys,
so we had our DRA for the enforcement order recently.
im so confused by the legal system. so the CAFCASS S7 recommendation was ordered which was good but we are still before magistrates and desperately need this before a DJ. we have been told at the previous hearing that the case had merit but just to hold on to be told at the most recent that it doesn't have any merit.
its a parental alienation case (identified by court and CAFCASS, she has not engaged with 2 hearings, there is abuse concerns AND we've proved her lying to CAFCASS about an incident to the children and CAFCASS are onboard with our version of events)
I just don't get it!
we want to appeal the decision not to put before a DJ - are we able to do this without undoing the other outcomes of the hearing?

Yes you can appeal any judicial decision - the appeal will be on that decision alone. It sounds like you have very strong merits to have this in front of a DJ, not a Magistrate.

 

[Rachel997]

Thank you. We thought so but you start to loose confidence when repeatedly getting knocked back

 

[Ash]

So how did the hearing go? It sounds like it went ok. There is an advantage to it being before magistrates in some ways. In that if the final outcome isn't good, you can appeal without needing permission to appeal - and get a very senior district Judge. Whereas if you had a DJ now and a not good outcome, you'd need permission to appeal. If you have a good barrister at the next hearing, they should be able to steer the magistrates in the right direction.

 

[Rachel997]

Hey Ash,
It was mixed. We did get the cafcass recommendation ordered which is most important.
The magistrate made my husband drop the enforcement so that can not be persued anymore so effectively she is no longer be able to be done for breach of the order. They have also suspended the original CAO and as discussed said there is no merit for it to go to DJ.
How my husband described it was she put on an impressive performance.
It was lies after lies and they believed her over him despite my husband highlighting the inconsistency between her reports and what she had told the cafcass fca. One of these lies she has recruited professionals and police and made the children believe it’s happened and she admitted it was a lie in court and the magistrates did nothing! Hence we are getting the transcripts and sending it to cafcass ourselves.
It was just really detrimental to my husband’s confidence. But it was a small step forward.

 

[lunico93x]

Hey Ash,
It was mixed. We did get the cafcass recommendation ordered which is most important.
The magistrate made my husband drop the enforcement so that can not be persued anymore so effectively she is no longer be able to be done for breach of the order. They have also suspended the original CAO and as discussed said there is no merit for it to go to DJ.
How my husband described it was she put on an impressive performance.
It was lies after lies and they believed her over him despite my husband highlighting the inconsistency between her reports and what she had told the cafcass fca. One of these lies she has recruited professionals and police and made the children believe it’s happened and she admitted it was a lie in court and the magistrates did nothing! Hence we are getting the transcripts and sending it to cafcass ourselves.
It was just really detrimental to my husband’s confidence. But it was a small step forward.

Hey there,

You should consider an appeal. It's been years since I've done an appeal - and it was in a civil case anyway - but if you look into appealing magistrates' decisions in family court it would you'll probably find what you need.

Magistrates do a difficult job but they're at the bottom of the rung that looks like this:

- High Court Wardship for super complex cases
- District Judge with Guardian for moderately complex cases
- District Judge for might-be-complex cases
- Magistrates for bread-and-butter cases.

It sounds like the complexities in your situation impact the welfare of the children for two reasons: 1. Alienation, 2. Delay (which as case law has said many times is in itself a harm to children in Family Law cases).

You may need the advice of a solicitor on how to start an appeal even if you intend to do it yourself, but you need a proper judge across this.

Best wishes.

 

[Peanut 21]

Hey Ash,
It was mixed. We did get the cafcass recommendation ordered which is most important.
The magistrate made my husband drop the enforcement so that can not be persued anymore so effectively she is no longer be able to be done for breach of the order. They have also suspended the original CAO and as discussed said there is no merit for it to go to DJ.
How my husband described it was she put on an impressive performance.
It was lies after lies and they believed her over him despite my husband highlighting the inconsistency between her reports and what she had told the cafcass fca. One of these lies she has recruited professionals and police and made the children believe it’s happened and she admitted it was a lie in court and the magistrates did nothing! Hence we are getting the transcripts and sending it to cafcass ourselves.
It was just really detrimental to my husband’s confidence. But it was a small step forward.

Sadly this seems to be common where the mothers lie incessantly but no-one cares.
When dads do it seems to be a different matter entirely.

 

[Ash]

Hey Ash,
It was mixed. We did get the cafcass recommendation ordered which is most important.
The magistrate made my husband drop the enforcement so that can not be persued anymore so effectively she is no longer be able to be done for breach of the order. They have also suspended the original CAO and as discussed said there is no merit for it to go to DJ.
How my husband described it was she put on an impressive performance.
It was lies after lies and they believed her over him despite my husband highlighting the inconsistency between her reports and what she had told the cafcass fca. One of these lies she has recruited professionals and police and made the children believe it’s happened and she admitted it was a lie in court and the magistrates did nothing! Hence we are getting the transcripts and sending it to cafcass ourselves.
It was just really detrimental to my husband’s confidence. But it was a small step forward.

Good that you got the Cafcass recommendation ordered. What happens next? ie next hearing? Is it going to a final hearing now? If so it might not be worth appealing. But if you have magistrates for a final hearing and the outcome isn't as good as you want, then you could appeal and get a more senior Judge.