Changing a CAO less than a year since it was made.

[jtcm0]

Hello,


I want to extend my weekly contact with my 1 year old daughter. I had to take my ex to court to even see her at all. My ex denied access for the following 2 reasons
1. I wanted to be on my daughters birth certificate and 2 I also didn't want her new partner present when I saw my daughter.

Anyway we got to court on the 8th June last year the order is below (I've removed my daughters name from it and put it as "M")

Contact order
6.
The mother must make sure that the child spends time with the father as follows;
a. Supported at a contact centre for eight sessions, the first four of which to last one hour and sessions
five to eight lasting up to two hours.
b. Following the eight contact centre sessions, weekly in the community for up to three hours. The
paternal grandfather to collect and return "M" to the mother.
c. The above arrangements may be altered, varied or extended by mutual agreement of the parties.
Contact shall progress beyond what is stipulated in 6(b) in line with "M" pace and development.

So we did the 8 weeks out of the centre as she decided she couldn't afford it even though in court she would pay half. We are now up to 5 hours weekly in the community. I started seeing my daughter on the 31st July 2023. I've suggested to my ex partner that we go up in 2 hours increments every 4 weeks she has declined this as "she" not our daughter but she isn't ready for that. I maintain the belief that it shouldn't be if she is ready but it should be if our daughter is ready and I would say she is. I also want to take my daughter to my home town roughly 100 miles away from where I currently live and where the mother lives as well. This request has been denied as she doesn't want to let me have my daughter for a day as a 1 off to make the trip. She is taking our daughter over 2000 miles away to another country in March for a week. My ex partner has also said twice now that she will not allow our daughter to stay over night at mine in case she gets "raped abused or neglected" which is a baseless insinuation.

We are trying meditation however I fear its not going to work as my ex has said a few times now that she isn't changing her mind on any of the points above.
So I may have to apply to change the order to include what I've said above. It also says in the order that its expected that should I be consistent with my visits I'm to be given PR however my ex partner is delaying this process as well. We completed all the paper work and we got the authority from the general register office to add me to the birth certificate all we have to do is make a appointment to add me to it but she won't.

If I do have to go to court again I don't know if id be successful or not and this time I wont qualify for legal aid as I'm in a better job now although currently off sick Also last time I didn't have a solicitor and this time I really want one but I have no way of affording one, any advice on all the points I've mentioned here would be gratefully received

Thanks in advance.

 

[Roblox]

There's a bit to unpick here but it sounds like you're on the right tracks. Getting consistent contact (although not ideal obviously) and working towards PR.

Hopefully this will mean in time you'll get a better arrangement

How long might it take to save the funds to get some legal help. I'm sure posters on here will be able to advise omn pushing forward for PR.

 

[jtcm0]

There's a bit to unpick here but it sounds like you're on the right tracks. Getting consistent contact (although not ideal obviously) and working towards PR.

Hopefully this will mean in time you'll get a better arrangement

How long might it take to save the funds to get some legal help. I'm sure posters on here will be able to advise omn pushing forward for PR.

Firstly thank you for a speedy reply to this.

I've tried all sorts of compromises with my ex to allow more time and contact all have been declined

So when I get PR it will be easier to get more time??

With money for legal help to get the total cost for a decent solicitor I'm not sure honestly I've seen so many different prices but say if it was a few thousand pounds that would take about 1-2 years to save up possible more as after all my bills and stuff I can anything from £50 to £150 left monthly

 

[Ash]

It's not a great order. For a start of it says "Contact Order". They are Child Arrangements order for lives with or spends time with. I've seen this a few times recently - they give the token "Child Arrangements Order" label at the top then under that put something like "Lives with order" - child lives with Mother and "Contact Order" and the times for the Father. These types of orders are usually written by solicitors for ex's. The court should be pulling solicitors up on things like this because Contact Orders and Residency Orders became obsolete in 2014 and were replaced by Child Arrangements orders. They get away with it by sticking Child Arrangements Order at the top.

They want the Father to sound the lesser parent by designating it a "contact" order. My advice to anyone is to always avoid using the word contact yourself in anything you write or when dealing with courts. Use other language like "when my child is with me" or "my child's care time" to keep up the psychological aspects of both parents being equal.

Ok rant over. The order should say child spends time with Father xxxxxxxxxxxxx

So it's not a well written order - it basically gave you supervised time only and anything else "by agreement" - in other words it lets the ex dictate everything. Can I ask why it was supervised in the first place? Assume you had a final hearing and it was still left as supervised then by agreement?

So yes you should apply to vary. However you mentioned living 100 miles away and that is going to be tricky. Until you have a full order of staying over time, I don't think you'll be allowed to take the child to your home. Unless the ex agrees - and she isn't agreeing. It's probably too much travel in one day so would mean an overnight.

You want to apply for a progressing order leading to a full every other week-end and half the holidays when the child starts school. If you could move closer you could have midweek nights as well.

 

[jtcm0]

It's not a great order. For a start of it says "Contact Order". They are Child Arrangements order for lives with or spends time with. I've seen this a few times recently - they give the token "Child Arrangements Order" label at the top then under that put something like "Lives with order" - child lives with Mother and "Contact Order" and the times for the Father. These types of orders are usually written by solicitors for ex's. The court should be pulling solicitors up on things like this because Contact Orders and Residency Orders became obsolete in 2014 and were replaced by Child Arrangements orders. They get away with it by sticking Child Arrangements Order at the top.

They want the Father to sound the lesser parent by designating it a "contact" order. My advice to anyone is to always avoid using the word contact yourself in anything you write or when dealing with courts. Use other language like "when my child is with me" or "my child's care time" to keep up the psychological aspects of both parents being equal.

Ok rant over. The order should say child spends time with Father xxxxxxxxxxxxx

So it's not a well written order - it basically gave you supervised time only and anything else "by agreement" - in other words it lets the ex dictate everything. Can I ask why it was supervised in the first place? Assume you had a final hearing and it was still left as supervised then by agreement?

So yes you should apply to vary. However you mentioned living 100 miles away and that is going to be tricky. Until you have a full order of staying over time, I don't think you'll be allowed to take the child to your home. Unless the ex agrees - and she isn't agreeing. It's probably too much travel in one day so would mean an overnight.

You want to apply for a progressing order leading to a full every other week-end and half the holidays when the child starts school. If you could move closer you could have midweek nights as well.

Okay. So the courts decided supervised as I hadn't seen my daughter in 6 months because of the 2 reasons i mentioned in my original post when the ex partner decided to deny access.


With regards to the 100 miles so i live in the same area as my daughter and my ex but I'm not originally from where i live now. I have lived here for about 18 years or so I've still got family in my original city where i was born, so I just want a day to take my daughter to meet the few family members left in my original city.

There was one and only one hearing a FHDRA

 

[Ash]

Ok so neither of those were good reasons for supervised only. Unless possibly the reason for the 6 month absence was because you refused to see your daughter unless ex's partner wasn't there or unless she put you on the birth certificate and she declined so you said - not seeing daughter until that's sorted - is that right?

If the order was made at FHDRA then it will be a consent order. Does it say "It is ordered by Consent"? A consent order means you agreed to the terms of the current order. Unless you feel that what is in the order isn't what was agreed on the day. Normally after an FHDRA if there is no agreement on time, it goes to a final hearing and the court makes the order.

 

[Peanut 21]

My ex partner has also said twice now that she will not allow our daughter to stay over night at mine in case she gets "raped abused or neglected" which is a baseless insinuation.

Do you have this is writing?
Who is she insinuating will rape her!!??
She clearly has a warped fear of what could happen to your child.

 

[jtcm0]

Ok so neither of those were good reasons for supervised only. Unless possibly the reason for the 6 month absence was because you refused to see your daughter unless ex's partner wasn't there or unless she put you on the birth certificate and she declined so you said - not seeing daughter until that's sorted - is that right?

If the order was made at FHDRA then it will be a consent order. Does it say "It is ordered by Consent"? A consent order means you agreed to the terms of the current order. Unless you feel that what is in the order isn't what was agreed on the day. Normally after an FHDRA if there is no agreement on time, it goes to a final hearing and the court makes the order.

So the 6 month absence was her doing because I'd asked to be on the birth certificate and for her new boyfriend to not be there when I had time with my daughter. Her words were "you've made me angry by asking for your name on the birth certificate so I will not be letting you see her"

We agreed on the order at the FHDRA I only agreed because as soon as i walked in the court room I felt like the evil one despite the fact I'd done nothing wrong. It was so bad that after court I had a look at her Facebook friend list just in case she knew the judges i know that was unlikely but thats how it felt.

 

[jtcm0]

Do you have this is writing?
Who is she insinuating will rape her!!??
She clearly has a warped fear of what could happen to your child.

I only speak to my ex on Facebook messenger and i screenshot everything so i do have this in writing below is one of the times she's said about the rape. I've again changed my daughters name to "m" on this post. In the message theres also mention of my trying to take my daughter to my home city which is what the 100 miles is about

"No it is In "m" best interest but I do not have to state that as her mother. Like I said and I shouldn’t have to keep saying it the reason behind not wanting her to stay at others houses overnight until she can talk is in a case of rape abuse or neglect she would be able to tell me and I would be able to report it to the rightful authorities. And 100 miles is a long way if "M" got hurt or unimaginably worse. I couldn’t get there quick enough to help or even possibly save her life. It’s too far from her primary legal guardian incase of an emergency situation"

also bare in mind for the long trip I would have at minimum my father with me as well and possibly and probably my brother so there would be minimum 3 adult in the car and in my home city another 2 adults.

 

[Peanut 21]

It's odd she has this fear of rape.
It's the extreme end of fear.
It's quite normal to have a bit of an attachment issue when the child is so young. But not to fear rape.
Maybe she was abused as a child?

It's good you have this in writing for future reference.
You can use this as evidence in future hearings. As well as the statement in your over post she made about you making her angry.
Sometimes the courts are frustrating because you need time to pass to paint a picture of someone.
Always be the better person and never write anything to her in anger.
Just file away all her negative messages to you so you can show her behaviour.

 

[jtcm0]

It's odd she has this fear of rape.
It's the extreme end of fear.
It's quite normal to have a bit of an attachment issue when the child is so young. But not to fear rape.
Maybe she was abused as a child?

It's good you have this in writing for future reference.
You can use this as evidence in future hearings. As well as the statement in your over post she made about you making her angry.
Sometimes the courts are frustrating because you need time to pass to paint a picture of someone.
Always be the better person and never write anything to her in anger.
Just file away all her negative messages to you so you can show her behaviour.

Yeah its very odd and as far as i know she wasn't or at least if she was she never told me.

Yeah I keep everything on screenshot in case i ever need it although last time with the courts they didn't want to see them as they saw it as "the blame game"


Also recently she has threatened to go back down to 3 hours in the community from 5 hours in the community if i keep asking for more time with my daughter.
So to clarify she is basically saying "because you want more time with your daughter I'll give you less"

Unfortunately it seems that she knows that she has the control in everything at least until im on the birth.


I'm hopeful we can get an agreement in place at mediation although I fear we wont.

 

[Resolute]

In my experience, it is a mistake to try and make sense of what my ex says by reference to reality.

Rape is the biggest possible fear a mother could have for their child. it is therefore, the strongest obstacle that can be put in your way. Who could possibly argue that a mother should not protect their baby from being raped?

There is no benefit to be had from opposing her objection to rape. Naturally, you want to oppose the conclusion she builds upon her objection, i.e. the child should not be with you.

Perhaps you could join your ex in opposing any possibility of somebody raping the child you had together. And show the court that there is no reason to believe there will be an increased risk of rape if the child is with you. Nobody can tell a mother she should not do everything possible to protect her child. It is fine to say a child is safe in the situation you will take them to.

I think your ex is reaching for the biggest weapon with which she can bludgeon you. Agree and reassure.

 

[jtcm0]

In my experience, it is a mistake to try and make sense of what my ex says by reference to reality.

Rape is the biggest possible fear a mother could have for their child. it is therefore, the strongest obstacle that can be put in your way. Who could possibly argue that a mother should not protect their baby from being raped?

There is no benefit to be had from opposing her objection to rape. Naturally, you want to oppose the conclusion she builds upon her objection, i.e. the child should not be with you.

Perhaps you could join your ex in opposing any possibility of somebody raping the child you had together. And show the court that there is no reason to believe there will be an increased risk of rape if the child is with you. Nobody can tell a mother she should not do everything possible to protect her child. It is fine to say a child is safe in the situation you will take them to.

I think your ex is reaching for the biggest weapon with which she can bludgeon you. Agree and reassure.

Completely understand her concerns and I have tried to reassure her unfortunately she didn't want to listen to me. She is vehemently against everything i try and ask for or compromise for. I'm hoping that in mediation she can become open to a compromise. I've had a conversation with her today and she says on the birth certificate and not putting me on it is due to her not trusting me which again I struggle to understand. I've asked and its seems mostly because I want more time with my daughter.

 

[Resolute]

Completely understand her concerns and I have tried to reassure her unfortunately she didn't want to listen to me. She is vehemently against everything i try and ask for or compromise for. I'm hoping that in mediation she can become open to a compromise. I've had a conversation with her today and she says on the birth certificate and not putting me on it is due to her not trusting me which again I struggle to understand. I've asked and its seems mostly because I want more time with my daughter.

Ultimately, it is not her you have to convince. You do not have to rely on her to be reasonable. Eventually her fears will be looked at by an outsider, the judge or magistrate(s) who hear your case.

Sincerity is wasted on people who have already made their conclusions. If your ex manages to frustrate you, it is to her advantage.

P.s. I have started to see my comms with the ex as a performance rather than an argument. There is no point arguing with her. It is enough to make sure that what I write does not reflect badly on me.

 

[jtcm0]

Ultimately, it is not her you have to convince. You do not have to rely on her to be reasonable. Eventually her fears will be looked at by an outsider, the judge or magistrate(s) who hear your case.

Sincerity is wasted on people who have already made their conclusions. If your ex manages to frustrate you, it is to her advantage.

I'm hopeful that mediation will work and they will be the only people we need to speak to. I don't want the whole court process again for my daughters sake.

She frustrates me yeah but i never show that to her I'm always calm and collected around her and my daughter.

 

[Resolute]

I hope mediation works for you.

You just made me realise I was assuming it will not.

Sorry for being so pessimistic.

 

[jtcm0]

I hope mediation works for you.

You just made me realise I was assuming it will not.

Sorry for being so pessimistic.

Honestly Its not a problem my friends and family are very much the same in regards to being pessimistic. I'm the same I do believe it won't work. In case it doesn't i have just aquired a "help with fees" number so I can apply to court without paying the £232 for the form. Mediation should be next week hopefully so if thats successful I won't need it but I've got it in case I do need it.

 

[Ash]

It's a shame you agreed to those terms at the first hearing last time, but I can understand you were hoping for things to progress and be agreed between you. You would have to explain, if applying to court again, that you had hoped arrangements would progress amicably but that hasn't been the case and you wish for your daughter to spend more significant time with you, including overnights.

You're more likely to get "significant time" when your daughter is two years old. However a case can take 9 months, or more, so maybe aim to keep things going for a while and then apply to court in say 3 months time. Apologies as that means I'm also being pessimistic about mediation.

If she will go to mediation though, it will help if you can get agreement to increase the time a bit or have her agree to a brief holiday with you - maybe for a week-end near Easter. Anything extra you can get agreed now, will help any future case if you need to apply to court.

 

[jtcm0]

It's a shame you agreed to those terms at the first hearing last time, but I can understand you were hoping for things to progress and be agreed between you. You would have to explain, if applying to court again, that you had hoped arrangements would progress amicably but that hasn't been the case and you wish for your daughter to spend more significant time with you, including overnights.

You're more likely to get "significant time" when your daughter is two years old. However a case can take 9 months, or more, so maybe aim to keep things going for a while and then apply to court in say 3 months time. Apologies as that means I'm also being pessimistic about mediation.

If she will go to mediation though, it will help if you can get agreement to increase the time a bit or have her agree to a brief holiday with you - maybe for a week-end near Easter. Anything extra you can get agreed now, will help any future case if you need to apply to court.

Yeah I had the intention to ask for a DNA test at court because my ex said at one point the child may not be mine however as I felt like the villain i decided not to. She reluctantly agreed to one recently and had the good result of her being my daughter which was a great feeling when it came back.

My daughter is 2 years old in October this year. So if as we all seem to expect mediation does fail I may apply straight away for court as it took a few months for it to be heard last time so it may be closer to October by the time a final hearing comes about. I'm still debating that at the moment though. I understand why you're being pessimistic about mediation as well so don't worry on that one

The last time she didn't bother at all with mediation this time however she actually is which is quite something. Although i suspect she thinks it will be the same as court in terms of it going in her favour so that may be why she is doing it.

I'm still trying to get to a compromise with her regarding more time and over nights however she has said she won't talk about it further until we have to joint meditation session. So she would claim harassment if I keep trying to talk about it before. I also unfortunately find it unlikely she'll agree to a weekend. Even if it was both days of the weekend where i pick her up and drop her off each day. She makes sure that its the same day every week although thats not always easy with my job much to her annoyance. I get the routine side of it but when I'm at work its not just to pay for me but pay for my daughter as well. Unfortunately cant do that at the moment as off sick.

 

[Ash]

At least she is letting you see your daughter but things need to move on. She may guess you’ll apply to court if mediation fails so it can be an idea to have an application prepared ready to go in case mediation halts. A well worded application can avoid any hostility.