C79 Enforcement pre-child arrangements order

[BrassTacks]

Hi …. Wonder if any of you have had any experience with the above?
I’ve read with interest the issues related to C79 after child arrangements, but wonder if there are some pre?

My ex and I live together under an occupation order she is now contesting.

We’ve undertakings not to denigrate each other in front of the children.

The last 3 months have been close to hell! (I can only imagine how the children would describe it :-( )
The ex is DAILY swearing at me and calling me names, in front of the 5 yr old and teenager. She’s physically hit and tough handled the litttle one, and at most daily shouts at them.
It’s purposeful and malicious only to make life difficult - by her own admission.
We both want out, but I fear she’ll restrict contact again without a reason (C100 under way).

I’ve clear evidence of this and witnesses (nanny).

I’m very reluctant to raise the temperature by making an application, but there is no doubt that the children are being affected.
The older one has done an about turn towards me sadly. The younger one has lost his spark and is getting affected by the shouting and physical abuse.

Does anyone have experience with Enforcement of undertakings to try protect the children?

 

[Ash]

Ok so you don't have a Child Arrangements order, but you do have undertakings, is that right? Are the undertakings signed on the back? Also can you prove what the ex is doing? Otherwise it could just be classed as hearsay/mudslinging. Have social services been involved?

 

[BrassTacks]

Hi
The undertakings are not signed
One are by consent
I’ve got hard evidence.
Social services were involved with false allegations the ex made which resulted in Nfa, but to ensure children weren’t exposed to acrimony.
Same as for CAFCASS- they said the same.

It’s just becoming unbearable. Ex is outright saying she’s trying to make things difficult just to get me out. All in front of the kids.

 

[Ash]

Was it an undertaking made at court? I think unless it was required by a court and signed on the back, it couldn't really be enforced. You'd need legal advice to check that. Your best bet would probably be to deal with these issues as part of the Child Arrangements process. If you have any major concerns about harm to the kids, then you could involve social services again. It can be very difficult to prove child abuse though unless a professional report says it is. I was once told by a Solicitor that social services wouldn't do anything unless the child was hospitalised with injuries and the law says parents can choose their discipline even if it's harsh (one rule for Mums and one for Dads there!). But if social services have been involved before then they might keep an eye on things and do checks.

When you say she's swearing at you in front of the children, do you collect from her home? Just wondering if you could arrange for someone else to do collections and drop offs.

 

[BrassTacks]

We’re still living together under an occupation order she is now contesting ….. so it’s relentless …

 

[BrassTacks]

I suspect she’s heard the same advice :-(

 

[MagicJ]

@BrassTacks do you get to spend time with the kids on your own? take them out, do activities?

 

[MagicJ]

My read of this situation s that, she'll do it whilst you're there but not when you're absent.

The trick is to defuse the situation by being present yet absent, don't stay in the same vicinity, keep your own routine and programme - gym etc, time so you land when they're free of her routine.

This will minimise conflict and reduce stress for both kids and you.

I'd read/ listen to the audio book on Toxic Co-parents, it guides on how to help your children deal with these situations by modulating your own behaviour and reactions - will dig up the link.

 

[MagicJ]

We’re still living together under an occupation order she is now contesting ….. so it’s relentless …

It's because Ststus Quo arguement is strong and you're on the front foot so she's desperately trying everything to change the situation.

Stay the course, I realise it's very challenging and can be disheartening to see the kids, you need to remain the calm stable parent, this will help the kids and you in the long run.

Log every incident, just for your benefit maybe email yourself with a summary of her behaviour every evening

 

[BrassTacks]

@BrassTacks do you get to spend time with the kids on your own? take them out, do activities?

Yes: I’m pretty much the primary carer until recently. (Now she does a little more as she’s able to get up in the am vs sleeping till lunchtime).
Ex has had horrendous menopause symptoms which have lasted for over 18 months, and only got better with new treatment in the last month or two.
I do most meals, breakfast and bedtime routine school runs, homework, clubs, parties etc, sports etc.

 

[BrassTacks]

My read of this situation s that, she'll do it whilst you're there but not when you're absent.

The trick is to defuse the situation by being present yet absent, don't stay in the same vicinity, keep your own routine and programme - gym etc, time so you land when they're free of her routine.

This will minimise conflict and reduce stress for both kids and you.

I'd read/ listen to the audio book on Toxic Co-parents, it guides on how to help your children deal with these situations by modulating your own behaviour and reactions - will dig up the link.

That link will be fab!
Yes - that’s what I’ve been doing but tragically being better means she’s now targeted fher vindictive nature! Just yesterday she blocked the driveway (takes 4 cars) to make me park on the road.. the pettiness beggars belief.
What’s worse is how it affects the children.

The sooner we’re able to move out the better.

 

[BrassTacks]

It's because Ststus Quo arguement is strong and you're on the front foot so she's desperately trying everything to change the situation.

Stay the course, I realise it's very challenging and can be disheartening to see the kids, you need to remain the calm stable parent, this will help the kids and you in the long run.

Log every incident, just for your benefit maybe email yourself with a summary of her behaviour every evening

Can’t recall if it was you that suggested this months ago it was great advice! .

In court I suggested we agree undertakings instead of fact finding…. She refused.
I responded to her witness statmejt, and will have to accept some funding if being verbally abusive at times of extreme conflict when I felt I had no way to resolve unreasonable issues: not proud moments :-(,

I put foreword a witness statement of over 200 recorded (sound and video) of verbal abuse, physical assault incidents over the past months (against me and the children).

In my view all it does it take our focus away from prioritising the children and distracts us on petty issues.
So many of the incidents are serious, but from what I read the courts and social services don’t seem to care.

All that happens is I come across in a negative way for not being able to move on, when all I’m trying to do is move on :-(

There are no winners and the children suffer the most.

The resentment this cases is going to create will be felt for a long time by the ex. She feels out of control because so far the courts and police (related to her false allegations) have not gone her way for now.

The ONLY solution is to walk away saying I don’t want to see the kids and will pay nearly all my income in child support to her.
(Eg she says if I pay her £x per month I can stay and she won’t be purposefully unpleasant )!!

Thanks @magic j. for your input.

 

[MagicJ]

Here's the link, it was a book @Ash recommended:

Post in thread 'How do you Co-Parent with a Narcissist.' https://dadswithkids.co.uk/threads/how-do-you-co-parent-with-a-narcissist.101/post-484

 

[Ash]

It's this one - how to co parent with a toxic ex. It's written by a parental alienation specialist - lots of good tips. I had the paperback and carried it round with me for a while. It's more when the ex is trying to manipulate the kids after separation but there might be some useful tips in there.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Co-parenting-Toxic-Ex-Ex-Spouse-Against-ebook/dp/B00HZ9SAAG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=coparenting+with+a+toxic+ex&qid=1630662655&sr=8-1

Sorry I forgot you were still living in the same house.

Now you've got a C100 in I think you need to be careful, because if Cafcass sees there is a lot of conflict they just assume the kids are better with only one parent and they always opt for the Mother. They might say your ex just needs some support etc. The best you're ever going to get after separation is 50/50. So rather than keep telling them what she's done etc and show there's a battle going on, it would be better to keep very much child focused and say things like - you're concerned for the children's stability. You know ex is having a bad menopause and hopefully things will settle down and "I just want the kids to have happy loving relationships with both parents".

It's not a fair system - if there is abuse on both sides, the court usually either sides with the ex or says "conflict between parents" and leaves them living with ex and minimal time with you. So you need to show you're the child focused one and Cafcass see a good co parent as one who doesn't criticise the ex.

But you have an advantage that you're not separated yet. Similar to Magic's situation. So they can't say you're a risk to the kids. And there will be more of an assumption that things will settle down once you're separated. Did you apply for 50/50?

she says if I pay her £x per month I can stay and she won’t be purposefully unpleasant

That's blackmail - but at least you know she has laid her cards on the table! Do you have that in writing by any chance?

 

[Chris41]

Terrible situation to be in and as you say your kids in the middle of this toxic environment. Sounds like you are doing all the right things recording it. Likely she is doing her best to provoke a reaction from you and try to make you loose your temper. Important to keep calm and not react , easier said than done. Alternative is to do a nesting arrangement temporarily not always practical, but this may also help set a precedent for 50/50 shared care if that’s what you are looking for. How long do you anticipate you will have to live like this, until you get another place ?

 

[MagicJ]

Yes: I’m pretty much the primary carer until recently. (Now she does a little more as she’s able to get up in the am vs sleeping till lunchtime).
Ex has had horrendous menopause symptoms which have lasted for over 18 months, and only got better with new treatment in the last month or two.
I do most meals, breakfast and bedtime routine school runs, homework, clubs, parties etc, sports etc.

That's good, ensure you have all of these activities documented, although you're unlikely to present 100's of images, having a selection across time and care/quality can help provide a window into the children's lives.

The fact that you'll be able to talk about the children's likes and dislikes across meals, reading, personality etc will also add to the overall picture of how involved you are.

Now you're in this process she will continue trying to be more involved and as their mother this is inevitable.

 

[Ash]

Are you keeping in with the school? Cafcass often contact the school and the school can say good stuff about you.

 

[BrassTacks]

Yes - applied for 50/50
Worse thing is the witness statement I wrote
It started off being child focused but then moved quickly to be focussed on the issues….. and as you say; I’ll be blamed.
Very disturbing future ahead

 

[BrassTacks]

It's this one - how to co parent with a toxic ex. It's written by a parental alienation specialist - lots of good tips. I had the paperback and carried it round with me for a while. It's more when the ex is trying to manipulate the kids after separation but there might be some useful tips in there.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Co-parenting-Toxic-Ex-Ex-Spouse-Against-ebook/dp/B00HZ9SAAG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=coparenting+with+a+toxic+ex&qid=1630662655&sr=8-1

Sorry I forgot you were still living in the same house.

Now you've got a C100 in I think you need to be careful, because if Cafcass sees there is a lot of conflict they just assume the kids are better with only one parent and they always opt for the Mother. They might say your ex just needs some support etc. The best you're ever going to get after separation is 50/50. So rather than keep telling them what she's done etc and show there's a battle going on, it would be better to keep very much child focused and say things like - you're concerned for the children's stability. You know ex is having a bad menopause and hopefully things will settle down and "I just want the kids to have happy loving relationships with both parents".

It's not a fair system - if there is abuse on both sides, the court usually either sides with the ex or says "conflict between parents" and leaves them living with ex and minimal time with you. So you need to show you're the child focused one and Cafcass see a good co parent as one who doesn't criticise the ex.

But you have an advantage that you're not separated yet. Similar to Magic's situation. So they can't say you're a risk to the kids. And there will be more of an assumption that things will settle down once you're separated. Did you apply for 50/50?


That's blackmail - but at least you know she has laid her cards on the table! Do you have that in writing by any chance?

No- she said it.
It’s not in writing BUT she applied for a non mol, stating I was a risk and wanted me out.

Then in her draft orders she said I can have a key and have contact to put kids to bed and get ready for school…BUT not OVERNIGHT, then stated if I paid £Xxx I can stay!!!

Bizarre to say the least!

So what about the black mail
She also said I’m not the dad and out the name on the birth certificate to get the money.

 

[BrassTacks]

Terrible situation to be in and as you say your kids in the middle of this toxic environment. Sounds like you are doing all the right things recording it. Likely she is doing her best to provoke a reaction from you and try to make you loose your temper. Important to keep calm and not react , easier said than done. Alternative is to do a nesting arrangement temporarily not always practical, but this may also help set a precedent for 50/50 shared care if that’s what you are looking for. How long do you anticipate you will have to live like this, until you get another place ?

She refuses to agree to anything.
Embarrassed to say we have two properties - the other one I paid for but is in her name.
If she was the man the police would boot her out… she’s refusing to let me move out into the property.. and is trying to sell it
I’ve an injunction against for and ongoing tolata proceedings / so it remains for at least a year or so :-/

I’m asking the court to agree contact do I can move out asap as if I don’t have that the risk is she’ll prevent contact.