Advice: court welfare reporter and allegations

[Tobebestdadpossible]

Hi I am looking for advice or any recommendations on what people have done in similar position.

My ex overheard my daughter (she is 5) talking about something I had done, which is untrue. My ex went to the police and social work investigated. The case was closed without me even being interviewed. Social work said there was nothing to investigate. My ex then decided because accusation was made that she would remove all contact. She now says say that the kids don't want to see me which I know is false. It has been a few months of making no progress so starting court proceedings. My solicitor expects that the court will appoint a child welfare reporter ( an experienced family lawyer to carry out an independent report and they will speak to social work etc too ). Note my case is in Scotland.

I am looking for advice on how I can make sure I have best chance of getting access reinstated. I don't know if references from my neighbours or from work would be a positive step?

Not sure if anyone has faced a similar situation? Have you had dealings of a welfare reporter?

 

[Tobebestdadpossible]

I am going to court to try and get access again to my kids. My solicitor expects a welfare reporter will be appointed.

Just wondered if anyone has experience of working with the welfare reporter and recommendation?

 

[Ash]

The Scottish system is slightly different so I'm not sure tbh. I would think it would be someone like a Cafcass officer (ie court social worker).

 

[Ash]

I've merged this with your other thread as both asking about the welfare reporter . I think usual advice is be calm, be yourself, keep child focused - best interests of the child. If the allegations have been dismissed then just take it one step at a time. You're doing the right thing going through the courts.

Other situations I'm aware of, where allegations of a sexual nature have been made, it usually means a Section 7 report and further investigations. The fact you haven't been arrested and social services closed the case with nothing to find, means the court is left with working out if the Mother has made it up or how to determine the issues. Time and patience and don't give up.

 

[Tobebestdadpossible]

Ash as always appreciate your comments. I have not seen my kids since mid June. My ex is now saying that the kids don't want to see me. Horrible how people can change for the worse. I do hope court has a positive influence.

Not sure how to prepare for the welfare reporter but like you said I need to put the kids first.

 

[Dadoftwo]

Surely If the social worker closed the case and you've not been involved with the police, can you use this opportunity to make an urgent hearing and say the mother is alienating you and that contact should be re-instated as a matter of urgency as this is damaging to your relationship with your daughter?

 

[Tobebestdadpossible]

You would hope things would move at pace but sadly not. I have employed a good solicitor to keep me straight. Sadly every time I ask her a question it is £50 so minimise my questions. Court writ has gone in. Now got to play the waiting game.

 

[Fabio78]

You would hope things would move at pace but sadly not. I have employed a good solicitor to keep me straight. Sadly every time I ask her a question it is £50 so minimise my questions. Court writ has gone in. Now got to play the waiting game.

Unfortunately I am in the same situation. It is awful! I thought that my solicitor wasn't good enough, but now I am reading that many people are in the same situation. Conclusion: truth is that this #metoo-based system sucks! Too biased! I regret the fact that I trusted in justice and get divorced. Now, looking at what is happening, I think I was too naive thinking that justice and fairness exist. If a friend of mine now would tell me that he wants to divorce, I would tell him: "if you love your children, find a lover, cheat on your wife (and eventually let her cheating on you), create a double life but DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE! DO NOT DIVORCE!" It is sad, but facts say that this is what the system wants!

 

[Fabio78]

I've merged this with your other thread as both asking about the welfare reporter . I think usual advice is be calm, be yourself, keep child focused - best interests of the child. If the allegations have been dismissed then just take it one step at a time. You're doing the right thing going through the courts.

Other situations I'm aware of, where allegations of a sexual nature have been made, it usually means a Section 7 report and further investigations. The fact you haven't been arrested and social services closed the case with nothing to find, means the court is left with working out if the Mother has made it up or how to determine the issues. Time and patience and don't give up.

"Be calm"..... I heard this so many times in the last month. Question: who is going to give us back our time with the children? Who is going to pay for the cruelty of these women? Why doesn’t the system recognize moral/non-material damage, in these cases? why does not exist a way to intervene immediately? We judge negatively Islamic extremists for how they treat women. Fair enough, but isn't this in our courts the same kind of extremism? Only the recipients are different. I see no difference between the Taliban and the magistrates in my last hearing. Both act against human rights, the only differences are that 1) they target opposite recipients!; 2) Taliban are less hypocrite!!! ... being calm??? :-/ of course, what else we can do? But.... honestly!!!! How hypocritical that phrase now sounds: "If a relationship isn't working, the right thing is to split up" It’s not true! Because after the separation there is no justice for men. It was much better to stay in the toxic relationship in which I was, with all the episodes of verbal and physical violence that I suffered even in front of children. But today I would prefer that, for at least at the end of the day I could say good night to my children! What a shameful and hypocritical system!!! As a man, father and human being, I do not believe in justice anymore

 

[Ash]

I hear you. The system is bad and needs complete overhaul. We’re here to help you negotiate the system. Of course it’s unreasonable to be calm - and you can let the frustration out on here - but it’s advice to help negotiate the system.

Because men are seen as “possibly dangerous”. A Dad who shows anger can be labelled as “possibly dangerous”, Especially if the Mother has made allegations.

As some Dads have said - it’s like a game and having to play the game and jump through hoops to get a result. It’s wrong that Dads have to go through this to see their kids. But society is based around assuming Mothers are safe.

There are good Judges - and there are some flakey ones. But it’s not about justice - the family court system only looks at the best interests of the child - and that is - too see both parents regularly providing there are no welfare issues.

So if your ex makes allegations they have to investigate. Because sadly there are some children killed by a parent every year.

The system should weed out liars and false allegations much earlier by allowing evidence at an earlier stage.

Governments don’t seem interested in overhauling or giving extra funding to family court system. You could try writing to your MP.

So “be calm” is for court hearings - about how to present yourself.

Have a look at Vincent McGovern’s book “The War on Dads and children”. He did end up with a 50/50 order - eventually.

Don’t give up.

 

[Ash]

Usual advice on here is - don’t move out until you have a Child Arrangements order.

 

[Fabio78]

I hear you. The system is bad and needs complete overhaul. We’re here to help you negotiate the system. Of course it’s unreasonable to be calm - and you can let the frustration out on here - but it’s advice to help negotiate the system.

Because men are seen as “possibly dangerous”. A Dad who shows anger can be labelled as “possibly dangerous”, Especially if the Mother has made allegations.

As some Dads have said - it’s like a game and having to play the game and jump through hoops to get a result. It’s wrong that Dads have to go through this to see their kids. But society is based around assuming Mothers are safe.

There are good Judges - and there are some flakey ones. But it’s not about justice - the family court system only looks at the best interests of the child - and that is - too see both parents regularly providing there are no welfare issues.

So if your ex makes allegations they have to investigate. Because sadly there are some children killed by a parent every year.

The system should weed out liars and false allegations much earlier by allowing evidence at an earlier stage.

Governments don’t seem interested in overhauling or giving extra funding to family court system. You could try writing to your MP.

So “be calm” is for court hearings - about how to present yourself.

Have a look at Vincent McGovern’s book “The War on Dads and children”. He did end up with a 50/50 order - eventually.

Don’t give up.

My frustration and lack of hope is due to the fact that I already showed the evidence that the dangerous person is her (physically and emotionally, for me, but even more for the kids). Look at the current situation: you mention "A Dad who shows anger can be labelled as “possibly dangerous” ". Ok, fair enough, but a woman that is acting with such a cruelty preventing for no reasons the kids to be with the father, this is considered what??? In fact, despite the evidence and the current parent alienation going on, nevertheless, they are still "thinking about it"... "we must wait the hearing" (in the end of September!!!!). But the time pass, and I don't even know where my children are right now. Anyway, I perfectly see what you mean, thanks a lot for that.

 

[Fabio78]

So if your ex makes allegations they have to investigate. Because sadly there are some children killed by a parent every year.

Fair enough to me! But I’ve made accusations, too, and unlike my ex wife, who is using malicious statements, I’ve assured the court that the evidence of everything I' ve said are ready to be provided. But who is investigating her?

Yes, this belief the system is entirely based on, that the children are undoubtedly safe ONLY with the mother, should be quickly revised!!!
In Italy, in the last two months, three mothers have killed their children!

Italian woman admits killing ‘kidnapped’ four-year-old daughter

Martina Patti claimed her child was taken by three men, before confessing a day later in Mascalucia

www.theguardian.com

Mother accused of leaving girl, 1, starved to death for days to visit boyfriend

Alessia Pifferi, 37, has been arrested on charges alleging she left her daughter, one, alone for six days in Milan, Italy while she went and stayed with her new partner Bergamo

www.dailystar.co.uk

And here in the UK apparently is not different:

Mother and ex-boyfriend found guilty of killing Kyrell Matthews, two

Phylesia Shirley convicted of manslaughter over son’s death with ex Kemar Brown guilty of murder

www.theguardian.com

The list is long. Really judges and magistrates do not read newspapers? I don’t know how these people can sleep peacefully. Honeslty!!!

 

[Ash]

I agree it's dangerous and stupid to assume all Mothers are safe. That's why Mothers who play the system, ,making false allegations, are dangerous to kids. And absolutely they get away with it - no punishment when found out - and they still leave the kids with them! The argument there is - how would the child feel if Dad sent Mum to prison. I don't go with that. If people do harm they should go to prison.

It is ridiculously unfair and unequal that men and women are treated differently in family court, but not the rest of the world. I believe this is because Cafcass (social workers) are trained to a 1970s model of "Mother knows best" - I think it was Karen Woodall who said that. So they are completely blinkered to the idea a Mother could be dangerous. And even if she is - they just "encourage" her to behave (ridiculous). Social services are as bad. Mum hits child - social services say Mum needs some support and it's reasonable chastisement. Dad hits child - he's arrested and never allowed to see his kids again as Mum claims he's abusive.

I agree that it is totally wrong, and bizarre, to leave a child with a Mother who has lied and made false allegations. But they look at it that - this is just post separation conflict between parents and otherwise, she's a good Mum blah blah.

The tricky situation you're in is - if you also make allegations, even if they're true - Cafcass can decide that is "conflict between parents" - ie both accusing each other and hostile - and they see that as conflict for the children and can then just give the kids to one parent and not see the other one - to keep them out of the conflict. And of course it's usually the Mother. Who is seen as the default parent.

It's all wrong. But it helps to understand how the court system works. Even though it works badly sometimes.

The main premise is "best interests of the children". Which means - stability, parents being amicable, no welfare issues. It's usually best not to make any allegations against the ex unless you have solid proof that she is harmful to the kids - like a social services report or social services recommending the kids are removed from the Mother. Anything else goes below the radar.

Emotional abuse is very hard to prove. You can persuade a court though, with good wording in statements and position statements. One thing I learned is that hinting at and skirting around things, and showing evidence of behaviour, can work well - the courts don't like you deciding something is bad for the kids (yeah I know - we're only their parents!) they like to decide it for themselves. I was told this particularly about parental alienation. You don't tell the court it is that - they see that as you diagnosing something you're not qualified to diagnose. The other dangerous thing is - they will often be suspicious of any parent accusing parental alienation (because that is exactly what an alienator would do). It's quite complex.

If you look at it from the court's point of view - they have two parents both accusing each other of things, and they don't know who is telling the truth - so they do a section 7 report and investigate. Sometimes they think - these parents are just fighting each other and neither is being child focused so just give the child to the Mother and Dad can have indirect contact only. Keep the kids out of the conflict.

Usually they do try to get to the bottom of things and resolve things and dismiss most allegations as post separation conflict - unless it's anything major or police have been involved.

As Dads we have to show we're a good parent, to get a good order - regardless of how the Mother behaves. So we have to be whiter than white -polite, courteous, child focused, showing willing to want to co parent amicably - regardless of what is thrown at us and even if we are on the receiving end of abusive communications.

The other thing I learned is - they're not interested in the abuse you've had or are having - they are only interested in whether the kids are safe with either parent. Now of course, Mum abusing Dad is harmful for the kids - but that goes under the radar.

The kids have two lives - they can compartmentalise and detach between them. The most important thing is having a good court order with as much time as possible with you - so the kids can see normality at your house, and have a normal life without you banging on about the other parent, like Mum does. They will work things out for themselves and will feel reassured by the normality at your place. And that's the best we can do - get them with us as much as possible and give them a good stable life with us without discussing their Mother.

To get that good order you have to play the game. Show willing to co parent with your nasty abusive ex! Suggest things you think would be helpful. Like changeovers directly to and from school to avoid conflict for the kids.

I was also told - you're expected to still co parent amicably even with your abuser - because the kids come first. Which is why you're still supposed to try mediation. Yet a Mother can be exempted from mediation and her abuse taken seriously. There are degrees - many allegations are minor things. Some are very serious.

Cafcass aren't trained to understand or deal with parental alienation. A good court order can mean it just stops. Ie the ex is intimidated into following the order and gives up trying to alienate the kids - ie accepts she has to follow the order. A particularly hostile ex will still try and manipulate the order, breach it and so on. But a good order is a good start.

So what allegations have you made? The thing to remember is - this isn't a fight between you and the ex. It doesn't matter if you can prove she hit you or abused you or whatever. What matters is - you're separated now and the kids have two homes - are they safe in both homes. If yes - no reason for them not to see both parents equally and parents have to deal with their own stuff.

It's tempting to retaliate, if she makes allegations, with your own back - like an argument. But it's not a good idea. Parental Alienation is serious. Witholding kids is not quite the same thing. It's horrific but it doesn't mean she is alienating the kids as such. Alienating them is brainwashing them into hating you - filling their heads with lies about you, derogating you, and even threatening to hurt them if they don't reject you. If they still have loyalty for you and enjoy seeing you, they're not alieanated.

Parental Alienation is vicious abuse of children. Proving it is not easy. The court will just see, at the moment, a hostile Mother, witholding the kids. She has probably made allegations as an excuse for witholding the kids because she wants shut of you out of her life.

Courts can see through that.

Where are you at with things? If there is parental alienation going on = hint at it but don't use that term or it makes you look suspicious.

 

[Ash]

Once you've got a good court order you're in a stronger position - people will take more notice - schools, Police etc (sometimes!). then if you have concerns about how she's treating the kids you can go to social services. That doesn't always help much either. Social services don't do much unless the kid is hospitalised - they support Mum or decide it's just separated parents accusing each other. Dangerous.

 

[Ash]

What needs to happen in my view is - at the time of application, both parties submit police reports - to show if they have a criminal history. That saves a lot of time later when Cafcass have to look into these things. Evidence shown at the first hearing to show who is telling the truth.

What the courts want is - people to make up and agree. That's why FHDRA is supposed to be a dispute resolution hearing. It's naive because when there is hostility and an agenda, one parent doesn't want to make up and wants their own way and to keep the kids! But in some cases the disagreements are minor - about how many days with each parent - and it can help then. If they can't agree, the court decides.

If there are no welfare issues, a standard order is every other week-end, a midweek overnight, and half the school holidays for the Dad. Many Dads are getting good 50/50 orders as well (you have to ask at the outset for that).

The law leaves separated parents to fight it out themselves - and cases only go to court when parents can't make amicable arrangements re the kids seeing both of them. The law needs to change. There should be a default of 50/50 at the time of separation and only go to court if one of them wants it to be different. Eg if Dad wants less than 50/50 fine - they can agree it. If Mum wants less than 50/50 for Dad she has to suck it up or apply to court and have a good reason to reduce the time. I think that would work. Other countries do it. The Uk is in the stone age and archaic.

And yes it is scary - there are Mothers who kill children - I believe the numbers are equal - whether it's a Mother or Father that kills a child. Mothers who make false allegations play on the culture that is so prominent - that women are the main victims and men the abusers. And the court has to investigate.

 

[Fabio78]

Wow, I do appreciate all these insights. Thanks a lot, really!!! The first person who speaks with such professionalism, but at the same time also with such frankness!... In general, I am quite happy about what you are saying, in the sense that I have never shown anyone that I am interested in any conflict with the mother. Quite on the contrary, I always talk about the kids, and prefer the amicable approach (for instance, I got my first C100 over a year ago, because she refused mediation, but I preferred not to go to court and keep trying to fix things amicably). So, in general I am doing what you said about not attacking the mother when with the social workers or the court, and I am doing so out of good sense, and because I genuinely have no intention (or any benefit) from fighting that woman. I am genuinely focused on the kids. Thought, obviously I had to provide the court with arguments with regards to my request not to move the children and yes, among these there are also accusations of negligence. But I will answer your questions about this in more detail....

 

[Ash]

Yup - there's only one person causing the conflict! Your ex. Unfortunately you can both get tarred with the same brush by Cafcass unless you're careful what you say about her.

Noticed you had your own thread so could you update on there? Didn't realise you'd been to court before.

 

[Fabio78]

So what allegations have you made? The thing to remember is - this isn't a fight between you and the ex. It doesn't matter if you can prove she hit you or abused you or whatever. What matters is - you're separated now and the kids have two homes - are they safe in both homes. If yes - no reason for them not to see both parents equally and parents have to deal with their own stuff.

Ok, the accusations and arguments. Well, obviously I must show evidence of her personality, and for this I had to mention in my statement the episode when I arrived to the police station with my arms still bleeding, after her aggression in front of my son. But honestly I did not focus on this particularly, as once again, all my line is extremely focused on the kids, as you suggest.

Now, since the matter here is the relocation of the kids, my arguments is the STABILITY of the kids, who were born and raised here. The mother's priority is the money, her status quo, and the career. Fine to me, I will even support her, but there is no need to involve the kids in her running after money, if they can remain exactly where they are, where they have all their friends and relationships, and have their father who actively support this stability since -on the contrary- my decision is to prioritize the kids over the career (I also had important professional invitations, from Dubai, etc, but I declined always to stay near my kids).

In this sense, my arguments were also the inability of the mother to take good care of the kids, namely, she was reported for neglicent behaviour and insecure driving to the social worker from the nursery of my daughter (and as a response, she fought with the director of the nursery and withdrawn my girl from the nursery without even consulting me). And the school of my son alerted about the very high number of absences of my son while he is with the mother.

Then, as further evidence, there’s a whole series of disrespected appointments to the dentists, videos and picture of the signs she left on the boy when she hit him (and witness); the incapacity to administer medicines to children safely and appropriately, etc. beyond the fact that she was able to convince my little son that any woman that is with me will ""kill him using chocolate", so still today my son has nightmares and gets anxious even if I talk by phone to my sister!

Now, there is this long month during which I did not see the kids, I had some random FaceTime, during which my sister cried asking the mother to see me, and she just cut the phone. I will not use the expression "parental alienation", ok, but by acting this way obviously she is giving me one more argument to use in the hiring on September. That is, why I can guarantee that I proactively promote an healthy relationship with both father and mother, she is promoting exactly the contrary.

Well, these are the arguments I used. Don't know if it is going to work or not, also because after reading your precious insights I understood that it is even more complicated (and unfair) than I was already thinking! And honestly it is hard to remain positive. So, well, hope to hear more from you. Thanks a lot, really.

 

[Fabio78]

Yup - there's only one person causing the conflict! Your ex. Unfortunately you can both get tarred with the same brush by Cafcass unless you're careful what you say about her.

Noticed you had your own thread so could you update on there? Didn't realise you'd been to court before.

sure.... I will go and update.... after having understood what "your own thread" means... I go and see. Thanks