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Parental alienation vs Emotional abuse
- Thread starter Jose
- Start date
So I finally received the position statement from the mom, full of lies again, some fabricated from what the cafcass officer understood. (I can tell she didn’t get what I was trying to say). So back to preparation for the first hearing and the joys. Let’s see how it goes on MondayMy position has been sent, Hers we will find out at first hearing
It’s not a final hearing though - at first hearing they won’t order more time unless the Mother agrees. Cafcass probably persuaded her to agree to a midweek tea time.
In what way was Cafcass officer especially unhelpful? I can guess but it’s good to hear reports of others experiences so we can think of tips to pre empt
In what way was Cafcass officer especially unhelpful? I can guess but it’s good to hear reports of others experiences so we can think of tips to pre empt
CAFCASS took as fact that there had been domestic violence (emotional abuse) and lack of care of my part, just because the mom said so, although they didn't see any safeguarding concern, they recommended investigating these facts. They ignored what I said about parental alienation.
Judge, however, saw it through and did say that she wasn't going to entertain the a fact-finding hearing regarding those issues (from my understanding she thought they were fabricated).
the CAFCASS officer was very keen and supportive of what my ex's barrister was proposing. Saying that our daughter is very small and cannot take too much change at a time so shared care is not possible for the time being. Her barrister said that because there is a big acrimony between us that shared care is not possible. They also suggested tea time on Wednesday.
what it's worrying is that after the interview of the Safeguarding letter, I contacted the following week CAFCASS to chase up the letter (since it hadnt been filed on time) and the cafcass officer phoned me 2 days after my call and said that she had a personal issue and that the letter was filed. She also said that I had to consider the relocation by agreeing with mom how it was going to happen otherwise she is going to recommend a S7 report and in what I considered a thread mention that our daughter's best interest will be taken into consideration. My answer to that was that if it wasn't the case that her best interest was going to be taken into consideration anyway.
I have asked Judge to consider in the cafcass S7 report, alienation as a factor for our daughter's detachment and not only the impact of the breakdown of our relationship and the effect of not being able to reach an agreement.
They are also entertaining the relocation to Poland so there has to be a presentation of reasons of how that benefits our daughter and reasons why it doesn't. Also what are the arrangements if or if it is not allowed. What's the impact of our daughter if it's allowed or not.
Judge said to me that the initial schedule might be disheartening but that is not necessarily what would happen.
The only positive note is that I have overnight for all weekends, starting this weekend. first one night and after my daughter starts school, then 2 days overnight. I think this is to establish a pattern that doesn't exist at the moment, now by court order instead of the mom saying when our daughter is ready or not (it's going to be very tough to change this since daughter is used to stay with mom and has her brain washed that this is what needs to happen).
I feel that it has been allowed that our daughter gets emotionally detached from me by not allowing regular contact with different excuses for example, no contact during the week because I live 20 mins away by car but living in Poland is fine and we can work out a contact arrangement. there is also the coaching that has happened that it's not highlighted by cafcass, and all the strange things I have heard from our daughter.
The last bit and I consider it important is that I have been systematically abused legally and used our daughter against me. This is overlooked and I cannot do anything about it. On the top of that I have to hear the laughs and jokes like (this is what you get when you get pregnant, surely I am thinking in having another child in the UK, ...not) we were in different rooms initially but with a thin wall.
Judge, however, saw it through and did say that she wasn't going to entertain the a fact-finding hearing regarding those issues (from my understanding she thought they were fabricated).
the CAFCASS officer was very keen and supportive of what my ex's barrister was proposing. Saying that our daughter is very small and cannot take too much change at a time so shared care is not possible for the time being. Her barrister said that because there is a big acrimony between us that shared care is not possible. They also suggested tea time on Wednesday.
what it's worrying is that after the interview of the Safeguarding letter, I contacted the following week CAFCASS to chase up the letter (since it hadnt been filed on time) and the cafcass officer phoned me 2 days after my call and said that she had a personal issue and that the letter was filed. She also said that I had to consider the relocation by agreeing with mom how it was going to happen otherwise she is going to recommend a S7 report and in what I considered a thread mention that our daughter's best interest will be taken into consideration. My answer to that was that if it wasn't the case that her best interest was going to be taken into consideration anyway.
I have asked Judge to consider in the cafcass S7 report, alienation as a factor for our daughter's detachment and not only the impact of the breakdown of our relationship and the effect of not being able to reach an agreement.
They are also entertaining the relocation to Poland so there has to be a presentation of reasons of how that benefits our daughter and reasons why it doesn't. Also what are the arrangements if or if it is not allowed. What's the impact of our daughter if it's allowed or not.
Judge said to me that the initial schedule might be disheartening but that is not necessarily what would happen.
The only positive note is that I have overnight for all weekends, starting this weekend. first one night and after my daughter starts school, then 2 days overnight. I think this is to establish a pattern that doesn't exist at the moment, now by court order instead of the mom saying when our daughter is ready or not (it's going to be very tough to change this since daughter is used to stay with mom and has her brain washed that this is what needs to happen).
I feel that it has been allowed that our daughter gets emotionally detached from me by not allowing regular contact with different excuses for example, no contact during the week because I live 20 mins away by car but living in Poland is fine and we can work out a contact arrangement. there is also the coaching that has happened that it's not highlighted by cafcass, and all the strange things I have heard from our daughter.
The last bit and I consider it important is that I have been systematically abused legally and used our daughter against me. This is overlooked and I cannot do anything about it. On the top of that I have to hear the laughs and jokes like (this is what you get when you get pregnant, surely I am thinking in having another child in the UK, ...not) we were in different rooms initially but with a thin wall.
I had forgotten a fact that I considered interesting. Mom was insisting in doing handovers at our houses but I insisted in doing in a public place on our position statements. Judge however said that considering what it has been said in terms of our daughter's safety it's better to do it in a public place
This is what I find interesting, definitely there is a version of events that it's read and a version that is thought. In my analytical mind, I don't understand is why it's not acted openly on what's thought (maybe because there is no punishment for wrong doing??)
This is what I find interesting, definitely there is a version of events that it's read and a version that is thought. In my analytical mind, I don't understand is why it's not acted openly on what's thought (maybe because there is no punishment for wrong doing??)
Quick reply. Judge sounds on the ball. Your ex barrister is trying to win the case for her and ramping up the idea there is conflict between parents (knowing Cafcass give minimal time to Dads if there is conflict between both). And all the other excuses.
The whole conflict between parents thing is a tricky issue. Usually the conflict is one sided - the ex. And it’s why we always advise to keep all communication polite and courteous - so you have evidence that you are the child focused one trying to co parent respectfully, and she is the hostile one creating conflict for the child.
Cafcass jump on the “conflict between parents” wagon if both parents make allegations as however true the PA might be they see it as you attacking the Mother. It’s their logic. If ex makes allegations they might be true because you’re a man. If you make allegations ex might be right again because you’re attacking her by accusing her of something. It’s skewed logic.
However a barrister can claim PA and it not be seen in the same way - or they can do it with authority. An LIP Dad does it and it looks personal.
I think you’ve done quite well for a first hearing and extra time.
If it went straight to final hearing you’d do well I think (and Cafcass out of the picture by then).
What’s happening next though? A section 7? That can be a good thing and you can sway Cafcass with the opportunity to have a more in depth chat. But it’s really important bro keep sounding child focused. So rather than saying - ex is alienating. Say - really concerned for daughter as the negativity she is exposed to is damaging her relationship with you. It’s saying the same thing bit rather than an accusation it’s showing concern for child’s well-being.
The whole conflict between parents thing is a tricky issue. Usually the conflict is one sided - the ex. And it’s why we always advise to keep all communication polite and courteous - so you have evidence that you are the child focused one trying to co parent respectfully, and she is the hostile one creating conflict for the child.
Cafcass jump on the “conflict between parents” wagon if both parents make allegations as however true the PA might be they see it as you attacking the Mother. It’s their logic. If ex makes allegations they might be true because you’re a man. If you make allegations ex might be right again because you’re attacking her by accusing her of something. It’s skewed logic.
However a barrister can claim PA and it not be seen in the same way - or they can do it with authority. An LIP Dad does it and it looks personal.
I think you’ve done quite well for a first hearing and extra time.
If it went straight to final hearing you’d do well I think (and Cafcass out of the picture by then).
What’s happening next though? A section 7? That can be a good thing and you can sway Cafcass with the opportunity to have a more in depth chat. But it’s really important bro keep sounding child focused. So rather than saying - ex is alienating. Say - really concerned for daughter as the negativity she is exposed to is damaging her relationship with you. It’s saying the same thing bit rather than an accusation it’s showing concern for child’s well-being.
Cafcass are invariably biased towards the Mother in a section 7 with allegations involved from Dad. However if their report is biased and unfavourable to you you can have it undermined at final hearing by having the Cafcass officer cross examined.
One way to get their report dismissed is if they only saw the child with the Mother and not with both of you.
Why the heck should your ex be allowed to move to Poland? Is she from there and wanting to go back? It’s possible the court may allow that - rather than force her to stay in the U.K. - but if they do I would still go for 50/50. It’s perfectly feasible to have that from abroad - it’s been ordered in other cases (rarely perhaps because not that common to live in different countries). It would mean most of the school holidays with you.
One way to get their report dismissed is if they only saw the child with the Mother and not with both of you.
Why the heck should your ex be allowed to move to Poland? Is she from there and wanting to go back? It’s possible the court may allow that - rather than force her to stay in the U.K. - but if they do I would still go for 50/50. It’s perfectly feasible to have that from abroad - it’s been ordered in other cases (rarely perhaps because not that common to live in different countries). It would mean most of the school holidays with you.
She is from Poland. In order for her to move, it has to be beneficial for our daughter and I think on top of my head can list a few main reasons why it’s not good.
She is also saying that I can move to Poland or Germany so I am nearer our daughter because in the past I wanted to work abroad. I also have a few good reasons for not doing it.
A proposal for relocation will come and I will have to document why not and plan for if it’s allowed or not. The effect on the mom of not going to poland.Also to explain what’s the plan for our daughter when she stays
Section 7 has been asked to contain:
A. Daughter’s wishes and feeling as far as they can be ascertained
b. The impact of her parents’ separation on Daughter and the impact of the disjointed child arrangements so far
c. how arrangements have progressed since the order was made
d. the emotional physical and educational needs of Daughter
e. Any risk of harm in terms of a breakdown of arrangements
f. The impact on Daughter of the proposed relocation
g. The impact on Daughter of a refusal of the proposed relocation.
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As you can see it’s very broad. Not sure what to make out of this. I might need help of how to deal with this
My thoughts on the above are that Cafcass are considering approving the move abroad. It hints that things haven’t been going well since separation and ordered arrangements. It hints that daughter’s feelings may not be that ascertainable (regardless of what she says) - suggesting that decisions will be made in her interests rather than her wishes. It hints that not approving the move may negatively affect daughter (actually it wouldn’t- it would only affect your ex).
On the other hand it’s fairly non committal and vague at this stage so a lot might come down to the Judge. But Cafcass do tend to be a bit biased towards Mothers in my view - especially if there is a chance she might lose residency.
So if ex was told she could move but if she did daughter would remain with you and spend time with her in holidays - that is effectively saying either she can’t move or she loses residency.
So they look at who is the “main” parent or suitable to be the main one.
There is unfortunately solid case law that says it’s a Mother’s human right to live wherever she wants. And it is almost always approved - if it’s a U.K. move. Unless it can be proved that she is only moving to intentionally disrupt child’s relationship with you, rather than a solid reason like a job offer or to live near family.
Abroad is a bigger issue but the principle is the same. This leaves a discrepancy between the Mothers human rights and the child’s rights to significant time with both parents. And the case law generally favours the Mothers rights. There is other more recent case law that argues against that (don’t know it off the top of my head but a Barrister would). Which is when it can take a Barrister to swing the case your way by strongly persuasive use of case law which a Judge has to consider when making a decision.
Cafcass will always think a child is better off living with a Mother - but presumably you can argue that your daughter has only ever lived in the U.K. and has a solid life and relationships here. Even so Cafcass may feel the relationship with the Mother outweighs everything else.
I’m not sure what you applied for - presumably prohibited steps to prevent your daughter being moved out of the country- or for daughter to live with you if the Mother moves. I would stick with that but be prepared to negotiate for a 50/50 order if she moves abroad.
The way that would work is child lives with one parent during term time and the other one for most of the school holidays. It could be either way round and you’d need to think which to argue for.
Or residency with you could be similar. Eg child lives with you but spends time with Mother on a near 50/50 basis (ie most of the school holidays). The care time os term time.
A 50/50 order though comes across as a compromise rather than either parent having sole residency (and more power ultimately).
On the other hand it’s fairly non committal and vague at this stage so a lot might come down to the Judge. But Cafcass do tend to be a bit biased towards Mothers in my view - especially if there is a chance she might lose residency.
So if ex was told she could move but if she did daughter would remain with you and spend time with her in holidays - that is effectively saying either she can’t move or she loses residency.
So they look at who is the “main” parent or suitable to be the main one.
There is unfortunately solid case law that says it’s a Mother’s human right to live wherever she wants. And it is almost always approved - if it’s a U.K. move. Unless it can be proved that she is only moving to intentionally disrupt child’s relationship with you, rather than a solid reason like a job offer or to live near family.
Abroad is a bigger issue but the principle is the same. This leaves a discrepancy between the Mothers human rights and the child’s rights to significant time with both parents. And the case law generally favours the Mothers rights. There is other more recent case law that argues against that (don’t know it off the top of my head but a Barrister would). Which is when it can take a Barrister to swing the case your way by strongly persuasive use of case law which a Judge has to consider when making a decision.
Cafcass will always think a child is better off living with a Mother - but presumably you can argue that your daughter has only ever lived in the U.K. and has a solid life and relationships here. Even so Cafcass may feel the relationship with the Mother outweighs everything else.
I’m not sure what you applied for - presumably prohibited steps to prevent your daughter being moved out of the country- or for daughter to live with you if the Mother moves. I would stick with that but be prepared to negotiate for a 50/50 order if she moves abroad.
The way that would work is child lives with one parent during term time and the other one for most of the school holidays. It could be either way round and you’d need to think which to argue for.
Or residency with you could be similar. Eg child lives with you but spends time with Mother on a near 50/50 basis (ie most of the school holidays). The care time os term time.
A 50/50 order though comes across as a compromise rather than either parent having sole residency (and more power ultimately).
that's really bad news. The mother wants me to move to germany or poland and then do weekends or holidays in her family house. I am going to stick with the 50/50 in the UK. I don't believe relocation is actually good for daughter since she will lose lots of advantages of living in the uk and having time with her dad.
This is a copy of the Judge's order, instructing Cafcass what to do and it was written by ex's barrister. My lawyer said that there is a strong case of ex not getting relocation approved since it will mean less opportunities for daughter. there is also a history of restricting access to daughter and to my family. but you are right, this will depends on the judge and how fair she sees, ex's strategy for the kid
Oh I see what you meant about the order. This is part of the order from the judge last Monday after the First Hearing. She has re-establish overnight immediately (this weekend) and temporary child arrangements in the form of overnights during the weekend at suggestion from Cafcass. in the instruction with Cafcass is asking how the new arrangements have worked so far (till they do the report, I guess in October).
I have a PSO for not taking daughter of the country since the 5th of July.
Cafcass wanted to pursue the allegations of domestic violence and not taking care of the kid but judge dismissed a fact-finding (I guess she thought it was bs)
Cafcass will try to side with the mom but I will make sure they explain in what way it's good the restrictions the mom has put in place (unreasonable since a judge asked them to reinstate them immediately).
Ex's barrister was asking for the two of us to do handovers of the kid at our houses and the judge said that seeing what they were talking about issues in the past, handovers happened in a public place (as I suggested)
My view of the whole story is that judge wants to see daughter getting use to being with me overnight because if everything goes well, I could argue, there is no problem is extending it more to the shared custody.
I am sure cafcass will play mom's bias but I will prepare the argument against it. If we talk about the kid's wellbeing. it's not mom's bias.
The move abroad will mean I wont see my daughter again and will eventually will grow a stranger, if she has tried to do it here I cannot see how she wouldnt do it once she has custody. it's only a matter of time.