Parental alienation vs Emotional abuse

[Jose]

My ex was with my 4 year old daughter in Poland for the Xmas holidays. She was supposed to come back the second week but when I called her a few days before she came, she was saying that they were fine in Poland and suggested they will stay there, needless to say, I mentioned that my daugther's place was with her dad in the UK and that she was free to stay there and she didnt want me to have to do something formal to bring them back so she said she would come. We had talked in December about kicking off the process of separating so it was going to happen in January.

A few days after she had come back, I found her crying and I asked what was going on. She said she had suicidal thoughts and she never thought she would be separated and stuck in the UK with kid with no support, so I said that she should have thought it better before having a kid in a different country. This is the first time I heard I was an emotional abuser and that she had been in November in a women's aid course. At first I laughed it off but I should have started recording.

I visited a lawyer after that and she said I had to get out of the flat asap.

She started after that picking up arguments for whatever reason, then, one day decided that she was "with no energy" during the weekends first and during the week after, she took 5 weeks off work for having long covid she said (when she had said to the GP that she had panic attacks because of me). During that time I had to look for a flat and take care of my daughter everyday. As some point I found she was faking it, one Saturday morning she was having a tea and watching Netflix in her bed. I said to her that she had to take care of our daughter because otherwise I couldn't move out (in fact I had lost a property that was suitable near by because of having my daughter with me). She recovered magically a few days later.

We had the first MIAM session with a mediator of my ex's choosing. It happened because I had to insist in getting another mediator if she wasnt agreeing a meeting with hers. I was supposed to have the second session before I moved out but she didnt book it, I thought at that point that it was a misunderstanding. Mediator mentioned we needed to talk together to our daughter that I was moving out.

I found a house and put deposit for a house to move out in February and then it failed because the tenant wasnt going out and two weeks later I found another one that was going to be available on the 24th of March. At the point I had the second flat I went on holiday with my daughter for two weeks to Spain (daughter didnt want to contact mum as usual and i had to put her on the phone). I finally moved out on the 28th of March. The day I was moving out my daughter came to me and ask me if I had another house and I was going to take her TV. I asked my ex why she said to my daughter about me moving out and not together as we were supposed to, she said I didnt want to tell her!.

Since I moved out, the first week my daughter had a cold and my ex didn't want me to have her at home. the following week she said she was going to the office and dropped my daughter in my house the following day, then I had her during the weekend.

I was tempted to keep my daughter with me so I reversed the situation but lawyer suggested not to do anything radical. Court is on women's side regardless what they do

the second week, she tried again to drop her again on Friday because of her having to go to the office but this time I refused because she said it to me the previous day and I had some deliveries to the house. I also asked for my daughter to stay overnight during the week and my ex said that I didnt have to be impatient.
the third week I asked again and she said I was leaving to far away and it would be a lot of travelling for my daughter, I live less than 15miles from her (30 mins max in peak hours, normally 20 mins). So no overnight during the week.

the third week I took a week off and said to my ex I will have her since I was off. My daughter started saying my house was too far, it was full of slugs at that point.
I had to take her back to school on thursday since my daughter wanted to. I had her again during the weekend.

The following week we had the second session of the mediator and I mentioned for the first time that my ex was manipulating my daughter. Mediator said it's just something kids say. It was actually good, because my ex only wanted me to have visitations and the mediator told her off and established a schedule for two weeks.

I did religiously the schedule but the first week I had her with me my daughter started saying she didnt want to stay with me, so I had to take her to my ex. During the weekend i kept her but she kept saying she loved mom and want to go with her. I realised that having videoconference during bath time was causing my daughter to start crying.

the last Sunday, we took X to doctors and I was supposed to take her home when my ex in front of her in the car said she didnt want me to take her. I said it was in the Mediator's schedule. She checked and started doing a circus with my daughter crying wanting to go with her mom, I took her home. Daughter calmed down.

Two weeks passed and Mediator didnt reschedule the third round, I had to contact her, they gave us a date again for a week and a half, during that time, I had her during the weekend because ex wouldnt allow me to have my daughter overnight. that Saturday I had her, I didnt call or message my ex, I had a message and a missed call around bed time, 7.30pm. Ex was saying she wanted to see my daughter, I said it would cause her to get upset and wanted to go, she treated with sentences like you don't want me to have access to my child, so I put her on video and child started trembling and saying I love mom I love mom. It was unbeliable.

Since she postpone the next mediator session just one day before the date after asking her several times to confirm the date for a session a month after. At that point I asked the mediator to give me the form to go to court. I received it on Wednesday and Ex on Friday said she wanted to relocate to poland and was going to say I was abusing her and the child, the same friday I got my application to court for risk of child abduction, parent alienation and 50/50 custody.

Now, she only wants me to have my daughter during Weekends 8am to 8pm and I have been doing this for a few weeks but now after all these weeks suffering this mistreatment I have asked my ex to have overnight when I take my daughter. She has in the middle has accused me again of being aggressive and overwhelming in my comms (supervised by a lawyer so no aggression whatsoever). So now comms happen Lawyer to lawyer.

Last week, ex also contracted COVID and didn't want me to take my daughter and return her when she was recovered, soI didn't see my daughter.

This week I insisted again on contact with overnight and again the same answer. I have already spent 7k. My question for you is, does it worth having no contact and wait for court to say something or ask CAFCASS to do something about this? I feel if things carry on like this, I will have to get a loan to pay for the lawyer fees at this point or I will be seen that I dont want to have contact because insisting for overnight (things are getting twisted all the time). What would you suggest?

What do you think about Fathers4justice or something similar?

 

[Ash]

Hi. Sorry to hear all this - it's not uncommon although you have an international element as well. You've been managing everything very well but I would stop paying solicitor fees - sometimes it's just money down the drain and what counts are the court hearings, where you get results. Solicitors just run up bills. It's a shame you didn't find us before submitting the C100 because it's usually advised not to use the phrase "Parental Alienation". It;s better to describe what's happening and the behaviours and hint at it, and let the court decide it's attempted parental alienation.

Your ex is in the wrong - she should be following a schedule and encouraging time with both parents. Take whatever time you can get between now and your first hearing. Have you had court papers back yet, with a court hearing date, or heard about Cafcass phone interviews yet. No point trying to get Cafcass to do anything at this stage - and even if they told her to restart the time, they can't make her.

Keep records of everything. Write diary notes to record things. Like Mrs Ex informs me she has covid this week-end and my daughter can't come to see me.

This will get sorted out. If you've applied for prohibited steps to prevent her leaving the country, presumably that was an urgent application. Did you apply for Child Arrangements on the same form?

Re legal fees. IMO it's better to use a direct access barrister for hearings and not use a solicitor. It works out cheaper in the long run and you get more experienced representation in court.

To answer your question - it's better to cite emotional harm than parental alienation. Because PA is a very loaded phrase and very much in the press these days (with radical feminists claiming it's something only abusers claim). It's also complex because alienators often accuse the other parent of being the alienator which muddies the waters. So if anyone claims parental alienation, Cafcass have to look carefully at who is actually telling the truth. But don't worry now you've submitted. Just use different phraseology from now on (manipulation of child and arrangements, emotional pressure to reject, that kind of thing).

It's also complicated as a child is only alienated when they are refusing to come, and there are degrees of alienation, from the extreme (violence and verbal hatred) to the borderline - resistance, saying strange things. With the borderline situation - all the while you still see the child regularly there are ways of diffusing and managing the attempts to alienate. Then your home becomes a safe haven for the child.

From what you say, your child is under a lot of pressure to do what her Mother tells her and to not enjoy her time with you.

 

[Jose]

Thanks Ash, I have two hearings, first one in July to ask the court to prevent her to run abroad, the opposing lawyer said there is no risk :/ the second one by the end of August. I am asking for Prohibited Step order for avoid her leaving the country, one for 50/50 Child arrangements Order and another one for alienation (suggested by the lawyer). I have been contacted by CAFCASS to confirm my contact details but I haven't received a call from them yet. I have a list of behaviours that I have noticed in my daughter that made me think alienation was taking place. The last time my daughter was overnight, I had to take her back to her mom because before bed time Ex called and forced talking to daughter by saying I was preventing her to see my daughter. I was stupid and I allowed this to happen and resulted in daughter having a massive breakdown. (it was really frightening), I believe she did on purpose.

Since then Ex doesnt want me to have daughter overnight and only visitations, surprisingly enough during weekends and bank holidays when I can take care of her 8am to 8pm. I am now asking the overnights to come back and Ex is refusing saying she is concerned about my daughter wellbeing, so there is no contact.

My daughter will come happily and we will do lots of things together it's only at night she doesn't want to stay overnight. Apparently mom is saying to her that she doesn't have to stay if she doesn't want to.

At what point you can turn around the table and get access to the child so the relationship can be rebuilt? Lawyer is saying 7 months including at some point a fact-finding hearing.

This is affecting me psychologically and I found myself not being able to do simple things which scared me to hell. I am going to book time with GP to talk about this. Maybe I need some time off taking care of myself

 

[Ash]

It does take some months to get a final order. The key is to accept that and make the best of the time you get in between. If you're still seeing your daughter regularly, that's the main thing. And hang in there. I'm not sure they'll accept it's parental alienation if your ex isn't actually witholding your daughter. If she's still letting you see her weekly, but just refusing overnights. The point is, if you're safe to see her during the day, you're safe to have her overnight! She has no valid reason to prevent overnights. Except, as you say, she is pressurising and manipulating your daughter to refuse overnights. That is a problem.

Coping with the stress and anxiety - take time to detach from the situation at least once a day and do something normal - ideally something creative (uses the opposite side of the brain to the intellectual/anxious side) or going for a walk. It helps with perspective and feeling stronger.

You're in the court process now so it's a case of jumping through hoops until you get to the end. Is some of the anxiety financial? We can help you on here with various things. Going to the GP is a good idea but if you do go, make sure you tell them the stress is specifically to do with the ongoing court case over being able to see your child. So you don't get labelled generally.

 

[Ash]

Just wondering what you think about why your ex will allow daytimes but not overnights? Do you think she genuinely doesn't trust you? Or is there some reason like she might think you might have a girlfriend staying over or something?

 

[Jose]

Thanks again Ash, I have just confirmed an appointment with the GP and detailed exactly what it's causing me being unwell.
For the time being, I believe I can pay for the cost of the process, I think it's going to be over 40k in a period of 7 months so I think I will be ok with some effort.

I believe the main reason she doesn't want me to have overnights is that Ex doesn't want me to have a normal schedule because she wants me only having visitations to support we never had regular/normal contact or so she says in her application to court, this is the model she wants to enforce till she is able to relocate to Poland. So she is making sure I don't fix the problem I have of my daughter not wanting to stay overnight. I don't have girlfriend nor that I want one after this issue for the time being.

The reason is mainly strategic, she is manipulating our daughter and wants to have control, like calls at night to "check how she is and she is ready to stay overnight with me". Thinking better it must be also an economical reason, like child contributions, she also wanted to impose a video contact during the week but to be honest being 20 mins away from where they are and being the child distracted I didn't think it was the right thing after 2 months.

Everything I do, it's twisted and used to support her emotional abuse accusation. the last one, her lawyer was telling me that I was aggressive in tone and quantity over email causing Ex to be overwhelmed, something absurd because I wasn't, the letters were suggested by lawyer and sent after. it was very business like comms, by the way, Lawyer was saying that and Ex was calling and sending emails at the same time!!, so a total made up. Meanwhile, Ex was diagnosed COVID and instead of me having my daughter while she was getting better she kept the girl, she also went to hospital and dentist without telling me anything after insisting for three days in a row asking how my daughter was.

 

[Ash]

Yes money could have something to do with it! More CMS for her if no overnights. If she has said she plans to relocate to Poland then you did the right thing putting the prohibited steps application in (whatever her lawyer says).

You shouldn't need to spend anything like 40k. You can get a good barrister for 4k plus vat (say 5k) per day. Even if you have two half day hearings and a full day final hearing, that is just 10k. The only time you really need a solicitor is at the time of writing the statement of evidence for final hearing, exchanging statements, and preparing the court bundle. You can do a tailored approach and just hire a solicitor for that one part of the job.

If you can afford to use both a solicitor and a barrister, then that can make things easier, but ONLY if they are very good and are fighting your corner.

I looked into a solicitor/barrister team who specialised in PA and the barrister alone was 25k a day! I couldn't afford that so got recommendations and went with a cheaper one. 4k isn't cheap obviously, but anything under 3k and you're probably wasting your money. Solicitors charge you for every letter, phone call and conversation and most of that is a waste of space as you can't achieve much until you get a court hearing - and that's when it is good to have representation - to avoid dirty tricks from the other side.

I switched solicitors 3 times before my final hearing. The last one was fighting my corner (but still made quite a few mistakes). The barrister was very good. It's the barristers who are experienced in doing the talking at final hearing and can get you the order you want.

Yes be very careful with personal communications - even if it's advised wording by a solicitor, if it comes directly from you it is still classed as from you. Anything in writing can be used for or against you. But just ignore what they said.

Keep to BIFF emails (brief, informative, friendly, formal as if writing to a business colleage). Firstly it means you can never be accused of saying anything aggressive. Secondly it could be useful evidence (along with her responses) of your approach. But also you don't have to reply to everything they send - you can ignore some of their nasty letters or just respond with "Noted". Or "Not agreed" etc.

The more letters her solicitor sends yours, the more it runs up your bills (a common tactic). And all it is is just arguing their client's corner - it's rare they actually resolve anything.

 

[Ash]

Process is - your application (the prohibited steps and CAO should technically be heard together).
You get hearing dates (unfortunate you currently have two separate ones as they could be rolled in together), but the prohibited steps is probably an urgent application so being done first. But it's important.

You get contacted by Cafcass to confirm your details then get a letter or email with a date and time for a phone interview. This is important, don't miss it, and it helps to prepare a bit first - ask on here.

After Cafcass have spoken to both parents, they write a letter/report, which you get a copy of before your hearing, so you have an idea of what they think and what recommendations they are making. Hopefully that will be positive for you. They might recommend a Section 7 report or a fact finding hearing. One or the other usually. You have some say/control as you can write a position statement (a short "update" on the situation) before each hearing and that's an opportunity to say what you think should happen next (eg you could say you want a section 7 but don't think a fact find will be helpful or vice versa). That's where you may need legal advice first.

The hearing in August is presumably your first hearing for the Child Arrangements. Is it with parents attending (not a "gatekeeping hearing"?).

It seems like a huge mountain to climb but you just take it one step at a time.

Obviously the more hearings there are, the more costs increase. If you had four hearings it could be more like 20k (with just a barrister - but once you've had an initial consultation with a barrister you can get advice there). Barristers don't do paperwork - they will write position statements, represent you and draw up orders if there's no solicitor. The day to day correspondence and sending documents to court you'd need to do yourself - or just a hire a solicitor for a one off job re filing bundle to court.

You won't really know what's what until you get the Cafcass letter. Sometimes hearings are rolled up, For example a fact finding hearing can become a final hearing as well.

If seeing the GP - be careful - you don't want your ex claiming you have mental health issues and are not safe - these things can happen. Keep it specific with the GP and say it's the direct result of what's happening with your daughter. Suggest asking the GP for counselling - that can be a big support throughout the process. Don't tell the other side you are seeing your GP or having counselling. From now on, keep a lot of things under your hat.

 

[Jose]

Thanks again, Ash. This weekend I went to wait for my daughter to a local coffee shop at 9am last saturdays as suggested by the lawyer. The condition I had expressed to my Ex is that our daughter will stay overnight and of course she didn't show up. She hasn't updated about my daughters health at all since Wednesday after Ex took her to hospital last weekend and was give steroids and to dentist on Wednesday. Someone saw her going out with the kid by car around that time. We are in a locked situation, Ex says only Saturdays and Sundays, 8am to 8pm and I dont think that's going to help recovering our daughter's relationship with me, so I want overnights (it's been 2 months and our daughter is getting used to see me very little).

The way is working at the moment is that I haven't seen my daughter for 2 weeks. First week, Ex had COVID and I suggested to take care of her till she got better and that was refused, but was complaining later that I didn't want to make arrangements during that weekend (the one she took her to hospital and didn't tell me).

I had contacted a friend of mine who is a social worker in Scotland and she pointed at fathers4justice to get advice and help with the next things coming (CAFCASS first call, the urgent hearing about parent abduction(july), the First hearing(end of august).

I am going to take some time off to prepare the CAFCASS call and write down every single thing that has happened.

 

[Ash]

Stay calm and take it one step at a time. We can help you on here too. I don't know much about Fathers4Justice or anything they do - there are a number of Dad support groups.

Could you get a solicitor's letter sent to your ex? You will have to take whatever time is offered, until it gets to court and you get an order, so if she is refusing overnights now, it's a case of being patient. And I know it's hard and emotional when you can't see your daughter (understatement).

Take whatever time you're offered. If she's now not doing the 8am to 8pm Saturday and Sunday, then sending a solicitor letter might start that up again. A polite, brief firm letter saying your ex is not to withold your daughter and must allow her to be there at 8am Saturday next week or whatever. You could send something similar yourself but your ex would ignore it. She might do it if she gets a solicitors letter.

With the Cafcass call, however emotional you feel, you need to be calm and child focused. Be careful not to let it sound like you're just complaining about your ex. If you're negative about the ex they don't like it. All they want to know is - are you a good parent and are you safe. It's a safeguarding check. If your call goes well they are likely to just recommend it goes straight to a first hearing and both parents to do a SPIPP course (parenting course). So don't say anything negative about the ex. Tell Cafcass about the close relationship with your daughter, the things you do together. It sounds strange at an upsetting time, but you want to sound upbeat about your daughter and your relationship. This shows them you have a bond and are a good Dad. You can also say you find it very hard not to be able to see her and worry about how that is affecting her, and you feel overnights are important to be able to have normal life together when you see her. That things were fine, but you feel your daughter feels in the middle because she knows ex doesn't want her to stay overnight. You're not sure why your ex doesn't want your daughter to stay overnight but think it's just because she wants to limit the time daughter is away.

 

[Jose]

And another one, now her lawyer says there is no need to go to court and answer my PSO for removing my daughter's passport since her mom is applying for relocation and wants both to have undertakings of not removing the child since if she does it I can always use Hague to litigate in Poland .

 

[Ash]

Whatever her solicitor says, don't withdraw your application. Let the court consolidate the applications. You can always do a position statement before the hearing, saying you are happy for a prohibited steps order to say neither parent may remove the child from the country. I think in this case an order is better than an undertaking. If an undertaking is signed on the back, it technically means that if broken, that person could go to prison (although that rarely actually happens). So in some ways an undertaking is stronger. However, if someone has actually left the country, a court order is stronger - I think!

 

[Jose]

Thanks for your help, Ash. I am going to keep the lawyer to lawyer communication after her lawyer called me aggressive when I was saying I will take care of my daughter after school instead of paying for a nanny. My lawyer said it wasnt.
I am taking the advice and taking the PSO forward and I think you mentioned you can hire a person to evaluate the harm performed on my daughter and find out why she doesnt want to stay overnight. Lawyer said that will be done by CAFCASS but it will take 5 months min!!!!.

 

[Ash]

Don't think Cafcass would be very good at that somehow. They get too hoodwinked by what the Mother says. You'll need to argue in court that she does was always happy staying overnight and does want to stay overnight, but is caught in the middle because her Mother expects her to say she doesn't want to stay overnight. And also that phone contact from your ex makes her nervous when she's with you and she feels under pressure. And if there was a clear court order to follow and the ex complied with it, everything would settle down. But you want a clause to state that phone contact isn't to take place except when your daughter is away from either of you for a week or more (ie in the holidays), to allow her to settle at your place.

 

[Jose]

Another development has happened, I send an email to my daughters new school (She is joining in September) saying I wanted to talk to her teacher, that I was with her mom involved in proceedings and that I wanted to be up to date with whatever happens with her at school and I received a called from what I perceived a pissed off member of the staff to arrange a call with her teacher and another person (head teacher). My first question is why two, my first reaction to that would be asking to record the call and if they don’t want then end the call by saying I will send an email detailing what I want to happen (basically getting all comms about Julia from school copied by email . Any suggestions?

 

[Jose]

My lawyer wasn’t very happy about me getting a psychologist to assess my daughter and find out what was causing her not to stay at night

 

[proud_dad]

Jose, it is very important that you develop an amicable relationship with the school, as they will work with children's services - CAFCASS/Social Services to input into reports, should that be the case.

I would recommend that you speak with both staff members as normal and just ask them how you can remain an active parent in your child's educational life and can they recommend any curriculum materials for you to follow so that when the child is living with you, you can support them. Do this with a positive tone of voice, using positive words throughout the call.

Please show them that you are a calm and easy going father and an amicable co-parent.

 

[Jose]

so first hearing for the PSO, out of the way. Judge allowed this to happen and to be honest, I still think there is a high risk of ex removing child if she doesn't get her way so it was the right thing to do. I have also experienced first hand what means being in a family court so I understand what's important and how things develop. I noticed that the ex's abuse towards our child and I is consented fuelled by her lawyers while not in court. From what I heard Court are already fed up with people taking advantage of this legal gap.

 

[Jose]

I have also managed to establish a good relationship with the school and I will get updates on our daughter. Ex is getting daughter enrolled in different things without my consent. Head teachers asked me to tell administration not to do anything without my consent and that they will deal with it.

 

[Jose]

Jose, it is very important that you develop an amicable relationship with the school, as they will work with children's services - CAFCASS/Social Services to input into reports, should that be the case.

I would recommend that you speak with both staff members as normal and just ask them how you can remain an active parent in your child's educational life and can they recommend any curriculum materials for you to follow so that when the child is living with you, you can support them. Do this with a positive tone of voice, using positive words throughout the call.

Please show them that you are a calm and easy going father and an amicable co-parent.

you are right, I am a bit over the edge and I tried to get some counselling to try to leave with the legal abuse I am getting at the moment. First Court hearing helped to understand that as long as you dont do anything wrong law is on your side when you want the best for your kids