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What next after an adverse fact finding hearing?
- Thread starter mikeayo1891
- Start date
If you are the mum, you can threatened your partner with a kitchen knife, you can assault and beat the dad, you can assault the children and beat them, with social services reports confirming the same, you’re still able to have contact. You can cause emotional harm and involve children in adult acrimony, as a mum, without repercussions for contact.
You can breach occupation orders and cross undertakings and injunctions with a penal notice, and as a mum the courts don’t seem to do a damn thing.
You can withhold contact and keep the child for Father’s Day, and it has no impact if you’re the mum. (Based on past expense and evidence).
If you’re the dad, and you have cross undertakings, and you email the mum instead of a solicitor over a weekend because school plans have changed, it will go on your police record and you’ll be considered to have breached court orders and be in contempt of court.
Sadly - I wish I was the only one saying this.
On the plus side; when it counted- I still managed to get, and maintain, 50:50 contact despite a C2 to amend it from the ex.
Good luck mate.
You can breach occupation orders and cross undertakings and injunctions with a penal notice, and as a mum the courts don’t seem to do a damn thing.
You can withhold contact and keep the child for Father’s Day, and it has no impact if you’re the mum. (Based on past expense and evidence).
If you’re the dad, and you have cross undertakings, and you email the mum instead of a solicitor over a weekend because school plans have changed, it will go on your police record and you’ll be considered to have breached court orders and be in contempt of court.
Sadly - I wish I was the only one saying this.
On the plus side; when it counted- I still managed to get, and maintain, 50:50 contact despite a C2 to amend it from the ex.
Good luck mate.
Are you separating from the same person I am?
This is so distressing to hear that the SAME allegations get made without any evidence or prior history of concern… it just seems like a list provided by google that is rattled off.
Luckily I had a judge that went into the detail of the “risk of abduction” to a foreign country and quickly dismissed it stating it was not a concern based on any fact, evidence or real risk or likelihood of happening!
This is so distressing to hear that the SAME allegations get made without any evidence or prior history of concern… it just seems like a list provided by google that is rattled off.
Luckily I had a judge that went into the detail of the “risk of abduction” to a foreign country and quickly dismissed it stating it was not a concern based on any fact, evidence or real risk or likelihood of happening!
Yes it does - maybe a family member. ICFA sounds good though.
In my case I wrote I didn’t want to rely on DV allegations unless she tried to push back.
That worked well initially then she makes cross allegations - I sadly in retrospect pushed for undertakings, which we agreed but she continued to breach.
I made another non-mol application and she made a counter one…. And again cross undertakings.
Had I moved to trial with the evidence I had I suspect it may have helped me more… but the reality was that the crazy vindictive non-child focused behaviour continued… so the judges were aware of the issues… which helped and the child despite mums best efforts maintains contact with me… it’s so hard to do but easy and important to say: one has to think about how the child experiences all this and focus on what’s best for them.
That worked well initially then she makes cross allegations - I sadly in retrospect pushed for undertakings, which we agreed but she continued to breach.
I made another non-mol application and she made a counter one…. And again cross undertakings.
Had I moved to trial with the evidence I had I suspect it may have helped me more… but the reality was that the crazy vindictive non-child focused behaviour continued… so the judges were aware of the issues… which helped and the child despite mums best efforts maintains contact with me… it’s so hard to do but easy and important to say: one has to think about how the child experiences all this and focus on what’s best for them.
@mikeayo1891 Could you post your result in the Court Results section as well? It'll help others to see a success story (but without quoting directly from the Judgement!).
Ahead of my Enforcement hearing next week, I have been asked by the court to provide a position statement on what kind of interim contact I would like. Whether in a contact centre and if it should be supervised or not supervised or supported or in the community etc.
For people who have experience of contact centres, can you help me with these queries?
1. Whose responsibility is it to find, arrange the contact centre? Me, The Ex, The court or Cafcass?
2. If it is the father, do I need to start looking for a suitable contact centre right now and contacting them to book an appointment with my child?
3. Who is responsible for the logistics of getting the contact arranged especially in a situation where mother and father are not in talking terms and all contact is channelled through mother's solicitor?
4. How much do these contact centre appointments cost? Is it charged per hour or per day?
5. Who is responsible for payment? Father or mother? What happens if mother refuses to pay her part?
For people who have experience of contact centres, can you help me with these queries?
1. Whose responsibility is it to find, arrange the contact centre? Me, The Ex, The court or Cafcass?
2. If it is the father, do I need to start looking for a suitable contact centre right now and contacting them to book an appointment with my child?
3. Who is responsible for the logistics of getting the contact arranged especially in a situation where mother and father are not in talking terms and all contact is channelled through mother's solicitor?
4. How much do these contact centre appointments cost? Is it charged per hour or per day?
5. Who is responsible for payment? Father or mother? What happens if mother refuses to pay her part?
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You've posted the same questions on two threads so I've removed them from your court results thread, or it;ll get confusing with different people replying to different threads.
1) I think you arrange it yourself.
2) Maybe research them in preparation for the hearing
3) It depends on where you both live. You could ask for a contact centre in your area and for the ex to travel. But she will probably say that's too stressful for the child - all the travelling for say two hour visits. Might be possible to find one midway between you.
4) I don't know - others will
5) You can ask the court for costs to be shared between parties so you don't have to pay it all yourself.
1) I think you arrange it yourself.
2) Maybe research them in preparation for the hearing
3) It depends on where you both live. You could ask for a contact centre in your area and for the ex to travel. But she will probably say that's too stressful for the child - all the travelling for say two hour visits. Might be possible to find one midway between you.
4) I don't know - others will
5) You can ask the court for costs to be shared between parties so you don't have to pay it all yourself.
Mine was ordered after a S7 and after my FF.
You didn't know at the time but you could have asked for it at the previous hearing.
You have mentioned that PA could be present so unsupervised after a long time could backfire. Im just thinking logically, a family member would be better but it doesn't have a professional report.
I had ICFA for 4 sessions, during the parenting plan meeting my practitioner recommended unsupervised to follow on after ICFA concluded but the malicious ex STILL insisted this needed to be supported by her family member which I didn't agree to and instead I asked for my family member to which she miraculously agreed (only because she was seen as being uncompromising)
This is only until my next hearing but ICFA in their report for the court have recommended unsupervised and extended times, half days and leading to overnights etc
I would prepare something in writing explaining the benefits of a co-parenting course, and the ICFA intervention.
This will make Cafcass and the court happy, but most importantly you aren't stuck in a contact centre and it's not out of your own pocket. You can see your child in the community with support, the ICFA practitioner will observe these interactions and at the end of about 4 sessions you get a glowing report for court.
The co-parenting course is about 2 hours online and this demonstrates to the court that you are putting your differences aside and trying to make it work from a co-parenting perspective.
All golden stars in the eyes of Cafcass and the court.
You didn't know at the time but you could have asked for it at the previous hearing.
You have mentioned that PA could be present so unsupervised after a long time could backfire. Im just thinking logically, a family member would be better but it doesn't have a professional report.
I had ICFA for 4 sessions, during the parenting plan meeting my practitioner recommended unsupervised to follow on after ICFA concluded but the malicious ex STILL insisted this needed to be supported by her family member which I didn't agree to and instead I asked for my family member to which she miraculously agreed (only because she was seen as being uncompromising)
This is only until my next hearing but ICFA in their report for the court have recommended unsupervised and extended times, half days and leading to overnights etc
I would prepare something in writing explaining the benefits of a co-parenting course, and the ICFA intervention.
This will make Cafcass and the court happy, but most importantly you aren't stuck in a contact centre and it's not out of your own pocket. You can see your child in the community with support, the ICFA practitioner will observe these interactions and at the end of about 4 sessions you get a glowing report for court.
The co-parenting course is about 2 hours online and this demonstrates to the court that you are putting your differences aside and trying to make it work from a co-parenting perspective.
All golden stars in the eyes of Cafcass and the court.
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Yeah i agree with you that unsupervised is likely to backfire having not seen child in over 18 months and the last time i had a video call with him was 5 months ago and he was shouting and yelling that he didnt want to see or talk to me. What would you advise is best? Supervised at a contact centre first? Or ICFA in the commuinity or contact centre? Or supervised in the community? I also know that the mother might tell him negative things about me on the day he sees me. And i live almost 4hrs away from the mother, will the ICFA happen in my location or hers?
ICFA is for reintroduction purposes and in the community which is supported.
I wouldn't like to see my child in one of those contact centres.
Choose somewhere fun to meet with your child, a soft play centre etc
Location will most likely be where your child resides.
After winning my fact find, my Enforcement Hearing regarding mother's earlier breach of a Feb 2024 interim contact order was fixed for next week. Mother and father have been ordered to send in their proposals for interim contact to the court by this Monday. Can someone kindly have a look at what I am proposing and let me know if it makes sense or advise what I should add or remove.
Background
1. Court should direct CAFCASS to within the next 3 weeks from today enlist the father and child on their Improving Child and Family Arrangements (ICFA) programme to give father and child an opportunity to meet in the child’s local community for 2 hours every Saturday. The ICFA should be conducted for a period of 4 weeks.
2. At the conclusion of the ICFA, contact to progress unsupported within the child’s local community in for 3 hours from 12pm to 3pm every Saturday. Mother drop child at contact centre and father collects from the contact centre to local community. This should happen for a period of 3 weeks.
3. Contact to progress to 6 hours of unsupported contact in father’s own local community in London every Saturday for another 3 weeks where father and child would have the opportunity to meet and build a relationship without the undue interference of mother. The handover should happen at a child contact centre near father's home in London to prevent to prevent false allegations of stalking, harassment and domestic violence. Mother to bring child to London and present him at the contact centre by 10am and collect him back at the end of contact by 4pm same day.
4. Father/Child contact to progress to overnight stay in father’s home in London from Friday to Sunday every other week (EOW). Father to collect child from his school at 3.30pm and bring to London and mother to collect child from father’s home in London (or at an agreed location near father’s home) on Sunday afternoon at 3.30pm. This level of contact to continue until the Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025.
5. Father and child to have regular mid-week 30 mins video calls every Wednesday at 5pm and regular weekend video calls lasting 30 mins at 5pm every Saturday (when child is not spending weekend with father). This video contact should start from the week when the ICFA contact begins and to continue until the Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025.
6. Ahead of the section 7 report and the subsequent Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025, Court to direct CAFCASS to arrange a Co-parenting Course for both parents to help us better communicate and coparent in a more cordial manner with child's best interest at heart.
7. Court should apply a penalty clause to this interim contact order to imprint on the mother the seriousness of the Court Order and to deter her from future breaches.
8. Given the significant gap between this Enforcement Hearing and the Dispute Resolution Hearing (in June 2025), Court should order for a Review Hearing in March 2025 to monitor the progress of the interim contact ordered. This would serve as an opportunity for the court to address any concerns with potential non-compliance by the mother (and to apply any penalties) ahead of the Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025.
Please let me know if you consider this reasonable and likely to be accepted by Judge. Let me know if there's something I should add or remove. Whilst making your suggestions, consider the fact that child is alienated at the moment. Also the amount of travel that may be required for child every other weekend to London (3.5 to 4hrs on Friday and 3.5 to 4hrs hours back on Sunday).
Background
- Child is 7.5 yrs old and hasn't seen father in 18 months (since May 2023 when mother got him arrested on false harassment allegations)
- Child has been alienated and has now been parroting mother's allegations to school (Judge himself said he was concerned that child has been manipulated to adopt mother's false narrative)
- Last time I managed to have video call with child (April this year), he was yelling and shouting that he doesn't want to see or talk to dad, daddy is bad etc. It is clear that child has been completely alienated by mother.
- In light of fact find not proving allegations and clearly saying mother's evidence was unreliable and exaggerated and manipulative, a section 7 has been ordered. This will take about 23 weeks for Cafcass. After that will be a Dispute Resolution Hearing (DRH) and potential Final Hearing. So earliest date for DRH will in be at least 6 months from now (around June 2025).
- Father lives in London and mother has moved almost 4hrs drive away.
1. Court should direct CAFCASS to within the next 3 weeks from today enlist the father and child on their Improving Child and Family Arrangements (ICFA) programme to give father and child an opportunity to meet in the child’s local community for 2 hours every Saturday. The ICFA should be conducted for a period of 4 weeks.
2. At the conclusion of the ICFA, contact to progress unsupported within the child’s local community in for 3 hours from 12pm to 3pm every Saturday. Mother drop child at contact centre and father collects from the contact centre to local community. This should happen for a period of 3 weeks.
3. Contact to progress to 6 hours of unsupported contact in father’s own local community in London every Saturday for another 3 weeks where father and child would have the opportunity to meet and build a relationship without the undue interference of mother. The handover should happen at a child contact centre near father's home in London to prevent to prevent false allegations of stalking, harassment and domestic violence. Mother to bring child to London and present him at the contact centre by 10am and collect him back at the end of contact by 4pm same day.
4. Father/Child contact to progress to overnight stay in father’s home in London from Friday to Sunday every other week (EOW). Father to collect child from his school at 3.30pm and bring to London and mother to collect child from father’s home in London (or at an agreed location near father’s home) on Sunday afternoon at 3.30pm. This level of contact to continue until the Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025.
5. Father and child to have regular mid-week 30 mins video calls every Wednesday at 5pm and regular weekend video calls lasting 30 mins at 5pm every Saturday (when child is not spending weekend with father). This video contact should start from the week when the ICFA contact begins and to continue until the Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025.
6. Ahead of the section 7 report and the subsequent Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025, Court to direct CAFCASS to arrange a Co-parenting Course for both parents to help us better communicate and coparent in a more cordial manner with child's best interest at heart.
7. Court should apply a penalty clause to this interim contact order to imprint on the mother the seriousness of the Court Order and to deter her from future breaches.
8. Given the significant gap between this Enforcement Hearing and the Dispute Resolution Hearing (in June 2025), Court should order for a Review Hearing in March 2025 to monitor the progress of the interim contact ordered. This would serve as an opportunity for the court to address any concerns with potential non-compliance by the mother (and to apply any penalties) ahead of the Dispute Resolution Hearing in June 2025.
Please let me know if you consider this reasonable and likely to be accepted by Judge. Let me know if there's something I should add or remove. Whilst making your suggestions, consider the fact that child is alienated at the moment. Also the amount of travel that may be required for child every other weekend to London (3.5 to 4hrs on Friday and 3.5 to 4hrs hours back on Sunday).
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I've put in a few tweaks with some wording.
I've changed alienated to alienated behaviours. I'm just using Cafcass language here which may be more accepted in court.
Thanks a lot @Peanut 21 . Very good that you spotted the Cafcass language there.
What do you think about the contact proposal as a whole? Reasonable? U think a judge will like it? And would it work for an alienated child?
I’d be interested to hear the outcome of this.
I’m sure how hard one should push….. judges seem very reluctant to add penal notices or enforcement of CAO, I suspect more so with interim orders.
The mother just has to cry wolf and simply stop contact and no one can say or do otherwise until it’s proven it was unjustified.
I have had multiple occasions when court ordered contact was not followed, and lame excuses like “I don’t know it applied on that occasion…” was accepted and despite MULTIPLE breaches costing $$$$ in cancelled or changed travel plans, still didn’t result in and “enforcement”.
May I also ask what form you used : it’s a tricky process to “apply” for enforcement.
I’m sure how hard one should push….. judges seem very reluctant to add penal notices or enforcement of CAO, I suspect more so with interim orders.
The mother just has to cry wolf and simply stop contact and no one can say or do otherwise until it’s proven it was unjustified.
I have had multiple occasions when court ordered contact was not followed, and lame excuses like “I don’t know it applied on that occasion…” was accepted and despite MULTIPLE breaches costing $$$$ in cancelled or changed travel plans, still didn’t result in and “enforcement”.
May I also ask what form you used : it’s a tricky process to “apply” for enforcement.
My understanding is the C79 enforcement form or even the Contempt of court form don’t go anywhere and one had to apply stating “Notice to Show Good Reason why an Order for Your Committal to Prison should not be made”
https://www.parklaneplowden.co.uk/committal-applications-in-family-proceedings/
https://www.parklaneplowden.co.uk/committal-applications-in-family-proceedings/