The so called experts. An update

[Peanut 21]

Hello All,
I've been on the site for a while now and have posted about my partners situation on and off.

I'll try to give a brief overview and then an update.

Partner was with ex for 7 years, never married, 1 girl and 1 boy.
My partner left as his ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive (not that he fully saw it until recent times).

Met partner 2 years after he split from his ex.
Met the kids casually (7 and 4) as daddy's friend for a year. Always kid led and didn't force a relationship, although from the off they really liked me.

Before my partners ex knew about me she still used him for stuff. It's called hoovering in terms about a narcassist when they try and draw someone back in.
They 'co-parented' for 3 years. Again in hindsight it was on her terms.

Cue when she found out about me over 5 years ago now.
She sent a huge email laying down the new rules.
Stopped from seeing kids/DV allegations/social services called/police called/CAO application put in.
The usual empty threat letters from solicitors arrived.
I was definitely the trigger, although she's denied this adamantly throughout and no-one has believed it.
I also believe the DV allegations were to try and scare me off.

3 months of not seeing kids until first hearing.
Interim time arranged as long as paternal grandparents or uncle present.
FFH followed with nothing found, final hearing with usual every other weekend, part holidays for dad.

Following year 3 allegations of dad chastising daughter alleged. I was there for all 3.
Ex stopped dad seeing kids again for 3 months. C79 put in. Ex applied to vary.
After Final Hearing 6 months later (more interim time again between hearings but me as support) dad actually got more time during half term added to CAO.

Had a miraclous 14 months or so of nothing (a few niggles) until next allegation made 2 years ago.

Ex applied to vary again. Hearing 4 months later. Ex appealed judges decision of dad seeing kids a contact centre then CAO back to normal.
Saw son in CC for 6 months. Daughter refused to go.
Cafcass involved again. In S7 cafcass officer could see kids picking up mothers anxieties.
Naively said parents could co parent again and just use mediation!!!

In this time didn't see either child for 7 months. Then only son came as CAO was reinstated with a staged progression.

Haven't seen daughter for 2 years.

Before hearings were concluded (without allegation that started it ever being dealt with and story changing a few times) cafcass were appointed as guardians and a psychologist was ordered.

In a word: shambles.

The psychologist fell for mothers lies hook line and sinker.

He felt dad had a narrative (even though it's been his actual lived experience) and is too paternalistic, rigid and authoritarian. Based on the fact he's put in normal parental boundaries and felt it was good to stick to the court order. The CAO his ex wanted.

The mother said she was best friends with daughter and doesn't tell the kids what to do. So dad hasn't got a leg to stand on if he just wants to be a normal parent having decent bed times and telling the kids off reasonably when they used to fight.

Both children have dreadful diets, can't tie shoelaces,brush their teeth properly and have started to become isolated from paternal family and friends.

Cafcass guardian changed her tune and agreed with psychologist.

I've got loads more to add but this is just for starters.

But for now, I don't trust cafcass, court appointed psychologists (who may have their own biases), solicitors, social services or schools after what's happened to my partner.

 

[bujanin]

That's really distressing to read.

Before Xmas I listened in on a Karen Woodall event and she started by talking about how we just stop trusting people once we're knee deep into this horrorshow, or something like that about trust being totally diminished.

 

[mikeayo1891]

Hello All,
I've been on the site for a while now and have posted about my partners situation on and off.

I'll try to give a brief overview and then an update.

Partner was with ex for 7 years, never married, 1 girl and 1 boy.
My partner left as his ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive (not that he fully saw it until recent times).

Met partner 2 years after he split from his ex.
Met the kids casually (7 and 4) as daddy's friend for a year. Always kid led and didn't force a relationship, although from the off they really liked me.

Before my partners ex knew about me she still used him for stuff. It's called hoovering in terms about a narcassist when they try and draw someone back in.
They 'co-parented' for 3 years. Again in hindsight it was on her terms.

Cue when she found out about me over 5 years ago now.
She sent a huge email laying down the new rules.
Stopped from seeing kids/DV allegations/social services called/police called/CAO application put in.
The usual empty threat letters from solicitors arrived.
I was definitely the trigger, although she's denied this adamantly throughout and no-one has believed it.
I also believe the DV allegations were to try and scare me off.

3 months of not seeing kids until first hearing.
Interim time arranged as long as paternal grandparents or uncle present.
FFH followed with nothing found, final hearing with usual every other weekend, part holidays for dad.

Following year 3 allegations of dad chastising daughter alleged. I was there for all 3.
Ex stopped dad seeing kids again for 3 months. C79 put in. Ex applied to vary.
After Final Hearing 6 months later (more interim time again between hearings but me as support) dad actually got more time during half term added to CAO.

Had a miraclous 14 months or so of nothing (a few niggles) until next allegation made 2 years ago.

Ex applied to vary again. Hearing 4 months later. Ex appealed judges decision of dad seeing kids a contact centre then CAO back to normal.
Saw son in CC for 6 months. Daughter refused to go.
Cafcass involved again. In S7 cafcass officer could see kids picking up mothers anxieties.
Naively said parents could co parent again and just use mediation!!!

In this time didn't see either child for 7 months. Then only son came as CAO was reinstated with a staged progression.

Haven't seen daughter for 2 years.

Before hearings were concluded (without allegation that started it ever being dealt with and story changing a few times) cafcass were appointed as guardians and a psychologist was ordered.

In a word: shambles.

The psychologist fell for mothers lies hook line and sinker.

He felt dad had a narrative (even though it's been his actual lived experience) and is too paternalistic, rigid and authoritarian. Based on the fact he's put in normal parental boundaries and felt it was good to stick to the court order. The CAO his ex wanted.

The mother said she was best friends with daughter and doesn't tell the kids what to do. So dad hasn't got a leg to stand on if he just wants to be a normal parent having decent bed times and telling the kids off reasonably when they used to fight.

Both children have dreadful diets, can't tie shoelaces,brush their teeth properly and have started to become isolated from paternal family and friends.

Cafcass guardian changed her tune and agreed with psychologist.

I've got loads more to add but this is just for starters.

But for now, I don't trust cafcass, court appointed psychologists (who may have their own biases), solicitors, social services or schools after what's happened to my partner.

Really sorry to hear what you and your partner have been through. The system is a huges mess and is just so one sided to the mothers. Just keep strong for ur partner.

So may i ask what is the situation now? My question is why do they keep doing a s7? Is it normal for the judge to always order a s7 everytime the ex breaches complains about something? Surely you could point that out to the judge so this stops.

 

[Peanut 21]

Sorry, I got cramp writing and ran out of steam haha.
I've missed out so much as there's so much to say.
The first S7 was in the first round of hearings as the ex made DV allegations.

The second one was last year as the cases had been going on so long cafcass felt they needed to reassess the childrens wishes and feelings.

The issue with wishes and feelings is that the kids can and do get influenced by the alienating parent. But some so called professionals like schools, social services and cafcass take what the kids say at face value.

Currently there is now no order for either child. It seems once they reach 11 they're old enough to make that decision.

 

[Peanut 21]

Will update more later.

 

[Dirge]

Sounds like you and your partner have being going through hell. You are both to be applauded for sticking with it and grinding it out for the sake of the children. The "justice" system in this country regarding mothers, fathers and children is still in the dark ages and is totally not fit for purpose. What I can't get my head round is that things can be absolutely fine for years after separation between parents, then bam, without any evidence mothers can fabricate stories and cause untold misery for fathers. Did your partner have a CAO in place before his ex turned nasty?

 

[Peanut 21]

. Did your partner have a CAO in place before his ex turned nasty?

No, she applied for CAO when she turned nasty.
We're co-parenting before she found out about me. I use the term co-parenting loosely.

 

[Peanut 21]

My biggest concern for the children is that in the future if they have the courage to ask their mum why she stopped them seeing dad, it's all set up that she can say "that's what you said". And show them all the paperwork where they've told teachers, SS and cafcass what she wanted them to say.

I wish I could post the videos and photos of the kids with their dad to show how they really feel about him.
They've been put under so much pressure to reject him.
The mother has a bad relationship with her own father but the psychologist didn't find this relevant.

 

[KG70]

My biggest concern for the children is that in the future if they have the courage to ask their mum why she stopped them seeing dad, it's all set up that she can say "that's what you said". And show them all the paperwork where they've told teachers, SS and cafcass what she wanted them to say.

I wish I could post the videos and photos of the kids with their dad to show how they really feel about him.
They've been put under so much pressure to reject him.
The mother has a bad relationship with her own father but the psychologist didn't find this relevant.

Nothing but respect for you Peanut. If it wasn't for my partner's help I would not know how I would cope. Some mothers put dad's through hell but thankfully some of us are lucky to have step moms/partners who are our rocks and source of strength. I wish you the very best and know that you are not alone and things will get better

 

[Resolute]

I am really sorry to read of this awful experience and I despair that the ex's bs was swallowed whole.

No group of professionals can be trusted across the board. Sometimes it seems like Social Workers, Cafcass, Psychologists, Police, SENCO's... are pack animals. The move as a group and protect each other.

This is not intended to disagree with you, but I feel a need to say they are not all bad. My kid's school have been amazing with me. Each year the class teacher starts off very suspicious of me, because of my ex's bs, but they come around and support me. The SENCO is slippery and obnoxious, but she had my back when it came to the crunch. The Head has intervened on my behalf more than once. Cafcass were terrible and biased and blind and heartless... But, I took them to task and they revised their misrepresentation of the facts. The police saw straight through my ex and were very supportive. Social Services were a nightmare, but they came down hard on my ex as well.

The solicitors and barristers and judges I have had to deal with have been atrocious, there is a special place in hell for those animals. Well intentioned judges have been blind to the point of negligence. I have very little faith in family law, it is dog eat dog.

Other people on here have had good experiences of the court.

Your post is bleak and upsetting. I really feel for the kids, your partner, and you. We cannot give up on these "professionals" though.

 

[Peanut 21]

Other people on here have had good experiences of the court

Of course. I've been reluctant to post as I've not wanted to discourage others.

There are professionals that are good but in my partners situation the ex was clever getting the narrative out there way before my partner knew what was happening. She's clearly got issues and was setting up the PA when the children were babies.
She even went to the police when the children were very young to say my partner hasn't done anything but she wanted to get their advice if anything ever did!! He only found out when SS did their initial reports at the very start. This has been planned behind the scenes way before they split up.

Everyone involved has fallen for her act and the worst were SS who made assumptions without ever meeting with my partner or seeing him with the kids.

My partner was a LIP apart from one occasion. He had a direct access barrister early 2021 and it wasn't a good experience. It really put him off. But I wouldn't put others off from using one if they need one and can afford it.

The children have now been put in a position to choose when they want to see dad. When in reality they have to go along with what their mother wants.

I've seen messages on my step daughters phone when we were still seeing her. Her mother texted her incessantly, even when she's at school. She'd send guilt trip texts like "I'm missing you, it's so quiet without you".
We believe this is her method. Same controlling MO as what she used against my partner but less aggressive. Gaslighting, guilt tripping and stone walling.

 

[Peanut 21]

Hi All,
So we're now in a situation where there is no CAO but can't get hold of the kids and the ex is ignoring messages too.
She's admitted in a roundabout way she choses to ignore my partner.
We have a few family events planned over the summer. My partner has shared these dates with the ex but she's now saying my step son has told her he doesn't want to go to them. After telling us he does.
So frustrating and classic alienation tactics.
Not sure what move to make now

 

[Ash]

I think maybe if he's had no contact at all with them, either by phone or seeing them, (at least the younger one) for a few weeks, it could be worth submitting an application for a new order, saying the children have been completely cut off, when the younger one had been having regular staying over time until recently, and asking for an order for the younger one. It's too late to get an order for the older one. Ok so he's 11 but it would be different if he was 11 and had no time with you for two years, as opposed to having regular time until very recently. No order at all seems draconian and is not protecting the child's rights.

Reading back earlier. I'm sorry you found a barrister who was no help. There are some who aren't that helpful. I had one bad one myself who was incredibly passive and useless (when my existing one wasn't available) which is why, as with solicitors, it needs to be the right one.

You also mentioned the ex is clever, and that is also when things can go wrong. I was luckier there. So some depends on the personalities involved. A clever ex can act well sometimes and convince people.

I think the worst thing in your case was the time and the delays - the longer things go on, the more intractible it becomes and then the courts basically give up on it. It's lazy, things get forgotten over time. The delays since the pandemic have added to that kind of thing. The clever ex managed to get things dragged out till the youngest was 11. The advice that used to be given was - get the best order you can before they're 10. Ideally before they're 8. Then if that's breached you still have time to go back for shared care or a change of residency. At 11 you could actually go for a change of residency, but I think that might not be possible in your case due to the psychologist report favouring the Mother.

The most important thing is to keep them coming. Even if it's just one day a fortnight or the occasional couple of nights in holidays. And that could be something you try for.

Delay is the enemy and also so much is luck - whether it's a good Judge or not (I had a bad one of those who decided to reserve the case to him latterly so it made having a barrister even more important), or a flakey, biased psychologist.

It's so wrong that so much comes down to being able to afford the best professionals and choose them.

For someone wealthy - if they could afford 50 to 60k they could have a top PA solicitor/barrister team, a top psychologist, get the PA proved and residency transferred.

 

[Peanut 21]

We're also doing the whole focusing on ourselves thing and sending the kids messages on WhatsApp. Even if it's just silly cat videos or nice photos of random things.
As you said to DB, @Ash we've all got to find things to build a good life for when the kids can break free.

My biggest fear for the children in these cases is that in the future they'll be told it was their decision.
Same with @DB2021 daughter.
Something very sinister is going on in the courts where they're just concluding cases to clear the backlogs.

 

[Ash]

It's not something I would worry about too much - the kids being told "well you said that". Because the kids are the ones who experienced the manipulation to say or not say certain things - they know what happened. They will keep it to themselves. I can't see they would challenge their Mother on that either. They will have a secret part of themselves - they know they're not allowed to show loyalty or affection for Dad. So I think they will avoid the topic.

Yes it's the same as for DB and the same strategies. The only difference is - you had been seeing the youngest one regularly and a complete cut off shows something - there may still be a chance for an order for something. Not for an appeal possibly because there's already been a psychologists/expert report. The argument being that the child is unable to disobey the Mother and has no say in their own arrangements, plus it is a huge burden for the child to decide their own arrangements, if the resident parent is not willing to make arrangements, as is the case (there's caselaw on the burden aspect).

It's very difficult. I would give it another four weeks. The ex may throw the occasional carrot to try and avoid a return to court, until the youngest is 13 or so at least. But I can't see her agreeing to fun family events - the kind of thing she'd want to avoid. She might agree to a general day one week-end maybe.

She probably will block your partner on their phones. The youngest one, at 11, probably doesn't have the confidence to circumvent that secretly via some kind of app, but might do by 12 or 13. These kids also have to protect themselves when they're left with the alienating parent, they fear that if they did something secretly, you might tell the ex, or the courts, and then they've been found out. They instinctively need the alienating parent to keep a roof over their heads and feed them so fear rejection by her if she "found out".

So it probably is best to send communications via the ex. If she's ignoring then your only route, other than accept it, is to apply for a further "reasonable time with flexibility" type order, twice a month or so, or for meaninful time. You could go in stronger but that's maybe not likely to succeed after the psychologist's reports. But you have grounds to apply as there is a new situation - ie the youngest has been completely cut off, your partner still has PR and the ex is not responding to communications. This leaves the child without a voice.

Another Dad on here did get a full day a fortnight and a midweek tea time ordered when a child was 14. With some flexibility as to which day.

 

[henry23]

This sound really distressing sorry to hear this.
I read section 7 cafcass are psychologists not sure how true this is but if it's true how is a mother like her able to pull the wool over their eyes?
The more I read about cafcass the more I lose faith in them with my case.

 

[Ash]

No they're social workers, not psychologists - that's part of the problem! You either have to pay separately for a psychologist or (rarely) the court will pay for one. Not sure who decides which one to use if the court pays for it.

 

[Peanut 21]

Cafcass just use flow charts.
I honestly believe in the bulk of cases that as long as the kids are being fed, clothed and sent to school by the mother, they're not bothered about the dads being in the kids lives.

 

[henry23]

Cafcass just use flow charts.
I honestly believe in the bulk of cases that as long as the kids are being fed, clothed and sent to school by the mother, they're not bothered about the dads being in the kids lives.

This comment is indeed very true.
They need to start looking beyond that.
My daughter lives with her glam mom who has the house tidy and mom looks amazing my daughter is fed clean and clothed but psychologically is messing her up with making her lie and fabricate and has years of being slapped and ears twisted pulled around the room for daughter to do as asked from her short fused mother.

 

[Ddavis]

Cafcass just use flow charts.
I honestly believe in the bulk of cases that as long as the kids are being fed, clothed and sent to school by the mother, they're not bothered about the dads being in the kids lives.

I agree I really do, I fear for my partners next hearing....he just wants time with his children I don't see why Cafcass are they way they are. Family Court is a huge injustice and needs building back up from scratch not worth the money its using or fit for purpose