Request to move abroad with my daughter

[Big Sam]

@Big Sam Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case?

Hi,

So it’s been quite a journey these last few months.

In July I had to apply to the courts for a PSO which was awarded, without notice. My emailed me saying she was taking our daughter to xxxx for a 5 day holiday.

Ex chose to contest it so we went to court and the PSO was upheld whereas my daughter can travel to any country that has signed The Hague Convention. At the same hearing ex and her barrister stated that they would be making a full application to relocate so the courts ordered a section 7 report.

The section 7 report arrived last week and does not support her application, it states that they suspect parental alienation has occurred and that relocation is not advised as my relationship with my daughter is broken.

We are due back in court on Dec 8th for the DRA.

Ex messaged me on Thursday asking if we could meet up and discuss things, this is the first time she has wanted to do this since we separated in 2017.

We met yesterday, she said that she has put in an official complaint to cafcass as the report in her words was biased towards me, she said it was like I had been sleeping with the officer

She said that she will continue to fight the case on Dec 8th even when I suggested that she speak to her solicitor again as surely they would be advising it’s a lost cause having read the section 7, I said it’s a waste of both our monies to keep lining the pockets of solicitors and barristers but she’s having none of it.

She said she can’t afford to live in the UK, she will have to move to a council flat and her car will be repossessed, she said that if needs be she will move to xxxxx without our daughter, it was basically emotional blackmail.

I am in 2 minds about the move, do I let them go or keep fighting. I don’t want my daughter to be unhappy but I have not seen her for 6 months and only spoken to her twice, both times she just went on about how bad a father I am because I won’t let her go.

Ex has said that my daughter will meet with me for a walk if she is also present, I don’t have a problem with that but all this sudden desire and words seems to be on the back of the S7 report.

Should I take a barrister to the DRA? I am pretty confident that no court will go against the S7 report and I could do without spending thousands more on a barrister.

Waiting to hear from my ex about when I can go for that walk with my daughter.

 

[proud_dad]

My thoughts:
1) you should have not met her in person to discuss as she may be trying to catch you out or use this to accuse you of being abusive in person. Moreover, anything your ex has said in your face-to-face discussion could have all been a ploy to mislead you. Keep discussions business like over email. Polite, but to the point.
2) IF she relocates, the relationship with your child will become transactional as she grows older
3) xxxx is not what it is made out to be. It is expensive, sterile and many that go out there come back to the UK broke and alcoholic. Schooling is bloody expensive out there. Do you want to risk your child having to relocate and then come back to the UK again when it goes belly up for your ex?
4) I would have a barrister at a Final hearing if it gets to that. I think a DRA will basically see if you and ex can come to a compromise or the judge indicate the potential outcome of a final hearing. You have the S7 on your side, so a judge is unlikely to put pressure on you to accept that your child relocates.
5) I would look at some statistics on the rate of return of UK nationals from xxxxx to demonstrate to a court through a witness statement that all that glitters is not gold, which risks further instability and upheaval in your child's life, which would be detrimental to their emotional and psychological welfare
6) Your child needs both parents. If your ex decides to relocate with your child, that's on her. ALL parents make sacrifices for their children. This is part of life.

Good luck

 

[Ash]

Agree with everything Proud Dad has said

she said that if needs be she will move to xxxxx without our daughter, it was basically emotional blackmail.

Let her go! But not your daughter. Just your ex. She can travel to the Uk if she wants to see your daughter.

I also think she is trying to manipulate you and knobble you. Personally I would use a barrister for the DRA in Dec because although the S7 report is in your favour, your ex's barrister is going to fight it. You need someone fighting your corner or her barrister may persuade the Judge.

Fight to keep your daughter with you, in the Uk and don't even contemplate your daughter leaving the country. She may be alienated now, but that will wear off once she's with you and not having her Mother in her head all the time.

This is no time for guilt or feeling reasonable. Because you don't negotiate with terrorists. This ex of yours has emotionally abused your daughter by alienating her. That is harmful and therefore your daughter would be better staying with you - because you're the stable parent who doesn't harm her.

I know it must be stressful and you must feel like caving in - which is not surprising after meeting with your ex and being manipulated and made to feel rubbish. But don't cave in. I suspect if your ex loses this case, she won't relocate abroad - because she won't want you having sole residency. If she does - while fine - good riddance. Your daughter will have a better life with you.

 

[Ash]

Just to add also - this meeting with your daughter with your ex present may be extremely unpleasant. No doubt your daughter will be expected to say hateful things again, and with her Mother watching, she will comply. I think this is intended to destroy you and make you give in. Don't let everything be on your ex's terms. Get your solicitor to write to ex saying thank you for suggesting a walk with daughter, and our client wishes to do this and spend time with his daughter, but we don't agree to you being present.

Obviously your ex is spitting that the S7 went against her. Do you know much about parental alienation? There is a lot of info on here and on Karen Woodall's blog. To help understand what is going on with your daughter. But the most important thing to remember is - this is not your daughter speaking - she has been brainwashed and incited into hatred and that is child abuse. Turned into a little alient. The second important thing to know is - it can wear off completely within 2 weeks if she is away from contact with your ex. And your daughter return to a normal, happy loving child.

I do think this next DRA could be quite crucial though to prevent further delays.

 

[Scotay]

Hi,

So it’s been quite a journey these last few months.



She said she can’t afford to live in the UK, she will have to move to a council flat and her car will be repossessed, she said that if needs be she will move to xxxxx without our daughter, it was basically emotional blackmail.

I am in 2 minds about the move, do I let them go or keep fighting. I don’t want my daughter to be unhappy but I have not seen her for 6 months and only spoken to her twice, both times she just went on about how bad a father I am because I won’t let her go.

Why not detail this to the court and put in for a Transfer of Residence Order due to the risk of the child being abandoned?

 

[Big Sam]

Thank you all for your replies, very helpful as always and some great points made....will see how the walk goes on Saturday, Ex is saying my daughter will only meet with me if Ex is present so I dont really have a choice as I am desperate just to see her, in the 6 months since I saw her last I bet she has grown.

Will update more soon, hope everyone is doing ok with yours

Thank you

Sam

 

[Ash]

When is your next hearing? I agree with what Proud Dad said above, that you shouldn't really meet up with your ex in person. I know you're desperate to see your daughter, and your ex knows that too, and you're being manipulated. She is dictating everything - and no doubt wouldn't agree to you taking someone with you (as a witness if nothing else).

I'm just very concerned it will be pretty bad. She may get your daughter to be hostile and try and say why won't you let me go etc etc. Cafcass have already said your daughter is alienated. I think your ex intends to use your daughter to try and make you give way and agree. Because how would you handle that if your daughter stood there and confronted you and was hateful unless you agreed?

Do you still have a solicitor? Any meeting with your daughter should be negotiated on both sides - not all on your ex;s terms. At least to arrange for the meeting to be in a public place like a play centre where there are other people around.

 

[Ash]

Things are going your way a bit on the court front. Cafcass is in your favour. So clearly your ex's intentions aren't good. I may be wrong, maybe she is trying not to lose residency so trying to show that she will let your daughter see you and everything is ok with your daughter. It will be manipulation either way as your ex is controlling your daughter. I think it's better to keep your daughter out of this. A solicitor should be able to arrange for you tos see your daughter without your ex there. Some firmness is needed.

 

[mikeayo1891]

Thank you all for your replies, very helpful as always and some great points made....will see how the walk goes on Saturday, Ex is saying my daughter will only meet with me if Ex is present so I dont really have a choice as I am desperate just to see her, in the 6 months since I saw her last I bet she has grown.

Will update more soon, hope everyone is doing ok with yours

Thank you

Sam

@Big Sam How did it go with your daughter?

 

[Big Sam]

@Big Sam How did it go with your daughter?

Hi,

So the meeting went really well, we met for lunch in a very public place. It was amazing to see my daughter again, had been 7 months and 1 week since I saw her last. There was no mention of the move, no mention of why this and why that so that was another positive, I had told my ex before that I would not be discussing the case in front of our daughter as that would not be right and the courts had also told us not to.

We spoke about school, new friends (she started secondary school in Sept) xmas and xmas presents and she seemed fine, even the ex was talkative. I know that the meeting was an attempt by my ex to "show the courts all is well" etc and I made sure not to say anything that could remotely be used against me in the future.

Back in court Dec 8th for DRA, before that I will be emailing her advising I will be applying for a costs order from the Cafcass report date onwards, unlikely it would be ordered but may give her some food for thought.

At court I think they will instruct ex and I to complete a "parenting together" course and then an IFCA for us all, be interesting to see if the ex tries to say we don't need it etc and lets just go to final hearing.

Hope everyone else is doing well, keep fighting the fight.

BW

Sam

 

[Ash]

Hi. Glad that went well, and yes obviously she is trying to sweet talk you! Like - look how nice things can be if you give in to what I want and of course I'll let daughter see you if I live on the other side of the world. And also to try and convince the courts to agree with her plan and persuade them she would let daughter keep up a relationship with you.

You have another argument now too - daughter is just settling into secondary school and it would disrupt her education at a prime time in her life (might not be a strong enough argument on its own though).

It seems to me that the crux of your situation though is the international relocation aspect, not parenting together courses and that is the absolute key. Don't give way to her leaving the country.

 

[Dandrew]

How did everything go @Big Sam ?

 

[dad1]

Going through this right now but my daughter is much younger than yours (nearly 1). My daughters mother is an US citizen trying to remove our daughter to the US following the end of a very brief relationship. Her reasons are fear of redundancy, not having any support looking after my daughter, and not being able to afford rent in a 2 bed apartment despite earning over £150,000 a year and getting a £30,000 bonus in May 2022. I'm sure you can see where im going with this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons stated above. Its just her way at getting back at me for our personal differences.

What initially started off as an application to get more time with my daughter turned into a relocation application once my childs mother failed to convince the courts I only deserved two supervised hours a week with my daughter.
To put things into further context , she wanted her RELCOATION application to be decided at a FHDRA. That is a one hour hearing. She wanted our childs entire future to be decided in one hour on a Tuesday afternoon. The judge was was almost confused by her application and went as far as removing herself from the case as she already had her answer and said she would rather have someone else take over for the final hearing.

Our final hearing is scheduled for October and I have no idea how things will go, but I got the feeling that unless it is 100% in the childs best interests to be separated from a parent the courts are very reluctant to grant these kind of applications.

My personal story is a long drawn out one but you have come to the right place for advice/help. Ash and the crew will help you along the way just as they have me and many others!

Can I please ask how this went?

 

[Ash]

Can I please ask how this went?

Final Hearing - Mother’s relocation abroad

@3ML WMD . Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case? Hi there, I had last day of my three day hearing yesterday (25/10/23) before Judge. I did some research on him and have read some concerning things! On the first day he seemed to be swaying on this side of M, who ill...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

See second page. Not sure if he's appealed or not.

 

[dad1]

Final Hearing - Mother’s relocation abroad

@3ML WMD . Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case? Hi there, I had last day of my three day hearing yesterday (25/10/23) before Judge. I did some research on him and have read some concerning things! On the first day he seemed to be swaying on this side of M, who ill...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

See second page. Not sure if he's appealed or not.

Thank you, useful to read but doesn’t fill me with much confidence. Gutted for the dad.

Final Hearing - Mother’s relocation abroad

@3ML WMD . Any update on your case. Were u able to win the relocation case? Hi there, I had last day of my three day hearing yesterday (25/10/23) before Judge. I did some research on him and have read some concerning things! On the first day he seemed to be swaying on this side of M, who ill...

www.dadswithkids.co.uk

See second page. Not sure if he's appealed or not.

Thank you, useful to read but doesn’t fill me with much confidence. Gutted for the dad.

 

[Ash]

Every situation and circumstances are different though. And every Dad is different.