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Phycologist or Gaurdian ?

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Scoobydoo

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Hello . Quick question if anyone can advise from experience.

Approaching final hearing. Phycologist ( expert ) has cited parental alienation and emotional abuse by mother on our children ( I have no contact )

Mother given a final chance to participate with interventions therapy etc and has not complied with bullshit reasons and keeps carrying on. Appears to have fooled the gaurdian as kids are spouting out same rubbish being pressured by mum .

Guardian has been fooled and saying it’s complex. Kids are saying they don’t want to see you and can’t force it etc ignoring the expert report.

Who is the judge likely to listen too ! I know it’s an odd question and maybe one that cannot truly be answered but after nearly 2 years I cannot believe we are back to square 1
 
Scoobydoo said:
Hello . Quick question if anyone can advise from experience.

Approaching final hearing. Phycologist ( expert ) has cited parental alienation and emotional abuse by mother on our children ( I have no contact )

Mother given a final chance to participate with interventions therapy etc and has not complied with bullshit reasons and keeps carrying on. Appears to have fooled the gaurdian as kids are spouting out same rubbish being pressured by mum .

Guardian has been fooled and saying it’s complex. Kids are saying they don’t want to see you and can’t force it etc ignoring the expert report.

Who is the judge likely to listen too ! I know it’s an odd question and maybe one that cannot truly be answered but after nearly 2 years I cannot believe we are back to square 1
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How old are the children? Has the Guardian ever said Alienation was taken place?
 
Hello. Gaurdian was appointed after the expert report . The decision to appoint one was based on said report as children’s true wishes and feelings cannot be ascertained. ! To find that she is ignoring the report and listening to them !

10k for a repeat to be ignored by cafcass. Don’t know if it’s a power trip … lack of understanding. Fear .. as ithe report was clear. If no contact rasumed then a transfer of residence .. sadly the oldest child is 13. Was 11 at start but now at an age the court may just say hey ho because of there own and carcasses debacles that delayed progress whilst the kids were being alienated further. Shocking ! Saddening. Frustrating.

Next hearing she will be cross examined but as said who would the judge likely go with. A qualified shrink. Or a social worker who works for the court. ?

I will be applying for transfer of residence but feel it may be a mountain now
 
This seems fairly standard for a Guardian. Assume it's a Cafcass officer? They sit on the fence because they are so entrenched in the idea that children belong with Mothers that they deny alienation to themselves and say "it's complex". But that's partly because they aren't even trained in alienation.

However if you have had a psychologist's report saying it's alienation, then that should be a higher level of evidence than a Cafcass report. Did the psychologist's report make any recommendations at the end?

All that happens is things drag on because the Guardian sits on the fence. From what I've seen of Judgements in cases like yours. But ultimately the Judge has to decide what to do. The Guardian will allow the situation to become "intractible" saying they can't be forced. The whole point of the psychologist report proving alienation is to basically say if the Mother still doesn't encourage them to go then there should be a transfer of residency, presumably with some adjustment therapy. Only when the kids are with you full time and have no contact with their Mother for a period of time, will the alienation wear off. Then time with their Mother might be able to be reintroduced.

But Cafcass Guardians know that alienation could mean the kids are given to Dad and they inherently protect Mothers.

The Guardian might make recommendations that will also sit on the fence or basically say - can't force them. I think that's when you need someone fighting your case to say - that's because she's alienated them and it has to be a transfer of residence for them to get back to normal.

What is your next hearing?
 
Ash said:
This seems fairly standard for a Guardian. Assume it's a Cafcass officer? They sit on the fence because they are so entrenched in the idea that children belong with Mothers that they deny alienation to themselves and say "it's complex". But that's partly because they aren't even trained in alienation.

However if you have had a psychologist's report saying it's alienation, then that should be a higher level of evidence than a Cafcass report. Did the psychologist's report make any recommendations at the end?

All that happens is things drag on because the Guardian sits on the fence. From what I've seen of Judgements in cases like yours. But ultimately the Judge has to decide what to do. The Guardian will allow the situation to become "intractible" saying they can't be forced. The whole point of the psychologist report proving alienation is to basically say if the Mother still doesn't encourage them to go then there should be a transfer of residency, presumably with some adjustment therapy. Only when the kids are with you full time and have no contact with their Mother for a period of time, will the alienation wear off. Then time with their Mother might be able to be reintroduced.

But Cafcass Guardians know that alienation could mean the kids are given to Dad and they inherently protect Mothers.

The Guardian might make recommendations that will also sit on the fence or basically say - can't force them. I think that's when you need someone fighting your case to say - that's because she's alienated them and it has to be a transfer of residence for them to get back to normal.

What is your next hearing?
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Ash. You sum it up perfectly as usual. ! Yes gaurdian is cafcass. Now she’s pleasant enough ! I genuinely believe she is either not trained or hate to say it being a mother herself can’t possibly imagine alienation exists ! Kids that age are hormonal etc. can’t force contact etc. you’ve probably heard it all. She doesn’t imply Im a risk at all for the record as 2 years in nearly it clear to see that the allegations were fabricated ( yes I had them too ) eventually court dismissed the lot or mum dropped them … the time it took though. ! A tactic used to delay and alienate and no repurcussions as yet !

She is aware of the whole case as she was the officer for our case prior to becoming the gaurdian ..

Bewildering she has taken this stance knowing what she knows and reading the expert report.

Next hearing is a DRA to assess if the interventions have worked ( therapy ) etc. which it hasn’t as no one is cooperating as such. Paying it all lip service !

The application is being prepared now prior to that hearing but I fear it may be blown out as gaurdian will not agree and just say hey ho .. they don’t want to see him as they are hormonal. Older . Or again spout off the coached rubbish they have been taught and totally dismissed by the phycologist !

What to do. Soon as you think you are getting there another barrier. .. 2 years nearly and barrier after barrier ! Hope we get the same judge as last time who was no nonsense and had had enough of this dragging on.

Just saddened they may now make a no contact order based on feelings and wishes ( albeit not there own )
 
How old are they? I'd suggest something robust needs to be done now so it doesn't become lazily intractible. The psychologists report is proof of what is happening. Could you put in a C2 and ask for a transfer of residency and get a barrister? And also make sure it's argued that wishes and feelings are INAPPROPRIATE when it's been proven the children have been alienated.
 
Exactly that. I do have a barrister and sure he will jump on it .. next hearing is only 6 weeks away and as solicitor says we could ask to speed it up but doubt it would be any sooner ! I think the battle will commence then as I believe the guardian has to be present as she is ‘the children ‘ who are now part of the proceedings !

I just hope we get a robust judge who thinks the same as you and I. Alienation as cited means just that ! Why would you listen to the kids ! I have no doubt they want to see me ! Zero ! … just sad they are parroting mums wishes for peace sake. So so sad. Just hope they don’t become another statistic of the failings of cafcass and the family courts
 
Scoobydoo said:
Ash. You sum it up perfectly as usual. ! Yes gaurdian is cafcass. Now she’s pleasant enough ! I genuinely believe she is either not trained or hate to say it being a mother herself can’t possibly imagine alienation exists ! Kids that age are hormonal etc. can’t force contact etc. you’ve probably heard it all. She doesn’t imply Im a risk at all for the record as 2 years in nearly it clear to see that the allegations were fabricated ( yes I had them too ) eventually court dismissed the lot or mum dropped them … the time it took though. ! A tactic used to delay and alienate and no repurcussions as yet !

She is aware of the whole case as she was the officer for our case prior to becoming the gaurdian ..

Bewildering she has taken this stance knowing what she knows and reading the expert report.

Next hearing is a DRA to assess if the interventions have worked ( therapy ) etc. which it hasn’t as no one is cooperating as such. Paying it all lip service !

The application is being prepared now prior to that hearing but I fear it may be blown out as gaurdian will not agree and just say hey ho .. they don’t want to see him as they are hormonal. Older . Or again spout off the coached rubbish they have been taught and totally dismissed by the phycologist !

What to do. Soon as you think you are getting there another barrier. .. 2 years nearly and barrier after barrier ! Hope we get the same judge as last time who was no nonsense and had had enough of this dragging on.

Just saddened they may now make a no contact order based on feelings and wishes ( albeit not there own )
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Has a section 37 ever been done? Surely Caffcass have to take the Phycologist reports into account. Baffles me how they cannot see Mother is not encouraging contact
 
It's not that they can't see, they choose not to see because they are protecting the Mother. It's total ingrained bias. Judges sometimes feel at a loss for what to do and they actually need something like a psychologist's report recommending change of residency, to actually make it happen.

Is the next hearing a DRA? Just wondering if your barrister will get chance to question the Cafcass Officer. Did the psychologist report have any recommendations at the end of it? Basically it comes to either change residency or tell you to give up so I think you need to fight for this.
 
Ash said:
It's not that they can't see, they choose not to see because they are protecting the Mother. It's total ingrained bias. Judges sometimes feel at a loss for what to do and they actually need something like a psychologist's report recommending change of residency, to actually make it happen.

Is the next hearing a DRA? Just wondering if your barrister will get chance to question the Cafcass Officer. Did the psychologist report have any recommendations at the end of it? Basically it comes to either change residency or tell you to give up so I think you need to fight for this.
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Next hearing is a DRA yes. Where she will deliver her verdict going against the phycologist report ! As said ‘children’s wishes and feeling ‘ even though the phycologist report states parental alienation. Her role ( as she was appointed after and in light of the phycologist report ) was to help contact restart but she appears to have taken the role of commenting and getting involved as if she was doing the section 7 again …. It’s a total farce.

Yes the phycologist report says transfer of residence if contact is not resumed within a certain timeframe .. instead of helping she is scuppering !
 
Yes the phycologist report says transfer of residence if contact is not resumed within a certain timeframe
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There you are then. Two things to raise

1) Wishes and feelings inappropriate due to parental alienation
2) Transfer of residency needs to take place now.
 
I think you're in a good position as your barrister can keep citing the psych report.
Cafcass will always just say "the Child has said...." once they're over 11.
 
The joke of childrens guardians in PA cases is that they're the 'voice of the child'. Children in PA cases don't have a voice. They're parroting the alienator. I think it's rare for children in this situation to ever be honest. The system needs to be overhauled.
 
Thank you guys. It’s the lift I needed. I realise it’s not definate. I’ve hit a low point and I’m usually more an optimist. It just seems never ending . Taking my feeling aside its so sad for the children …I’d say more but like most fear prying eyes.

Phycologist has seen it and reported it but the cafcass guardian just seems to think we live in a happy clappy world where it couldn’t possibly exist.

Yes the ages are concerning me and a battle ahead ..

On another note I how in years or decades to come cafcass are dismantled or replaced or trained properly ! Most are female. Now no issue with this bar what appears to be unconscious bias creeping in etc. need more males. More training and more backing .. they are causing delays and harm
 
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They need training on when children are abused, whether it's through PA, neglect or anything else, that the child sides with the abuser. It's a form of protection.
One or two chats with an abused child won't get any honesty out of them. They'd need proper intervention with their own regular social worker.
 
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Scoobydoo said:
Thank you guys. It’s the lift I needed. I realise it’s not definate. I’ve hit a low point and I’m usually more an optimist. It just seems never ending . Taking my feeling aside its so sad for the children …I’d say more but like most fear prying eyes. But I know they want to see me but are frightened of mother … and this is factual not hearsay but the source o got this from I cannot break the trust and it wouldn’t carry any weight as verbal but trusted source.

Phycologist has seen it and reported it but the cafcass guardian just seems to think we live in a happy clappy world where it couldn’t possibly exist.

Yes the ages are concerning me and a battle ahead ..

On another note I how in years or decades to come cafcass are dismantled or replaced or trained properly ! Most are female. Now no issue with this bar what appears to be unconscious bias creeping in etc. need more males. More training and more backing .. they are causing delays and harm
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In our case the children's Guardian has said the kids are been alienatined.. Social workers appointed so Mother will work with kids to see dad.. still no further along and mother not helping. Unfortunately it's still takes time having them on side
 
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mainstay92 said:
In our case the children's Guardian has said the kids are been alienatined.. Social workers appointed so Mother will work with kids to see dad.. still no further along and mother not helping. Unfortunately it's still takes time having them on side
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Wow. Sadly this seems so familiar. They just let the abuse continue. When and how can we hold them accountable.

It’s almost like you don’t want to know because knowing is more difficult when called out they don’t act to resolve. I read somewhere that transfer of residence is still seen as draconian !

Possibly but what other choices when the loonies in charge think by ‘trying ‘ woth mum to work with it with no end date anything will change. The same mum that had no issues in making horrendous allegations ( thankfully behind me now but was awful ) etc. hello. You are dealing with unstable illogical folk here and you are trying to be logical ! Wake up !!

So where is yours ‘heading ‘ …. What’s the next step
 
I read somewhere that transfer of residence is still seen as draconian !
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It depends who you read. There is also caselaw that says transfer of residence does not have to be a last resort. (Ie it can be done for various reasons).

The Mother is massively in contempt of court, hiding behind saying the children are refusing and being aided and abetted by a wishy washy Cafcass officer who is, perhaps unwittingly, enabling it to continue.

The positive is that all the while the Guardian is involved at least the kids know you haven’t given up.

The other positive is, if it drags on for another year or so the eldest can just jump ship. However you don’t really want it dragging on another year or so and jumping ship is incredibly hard for them as they know they are basically not going to see their Mum again (alienating parents usually cut them off dead if they go to Dad).

What does your barrister say abd could the psychologist be at the next hearing also? I think you might be able to subpoena them but I’m not sure about that.
 
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