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Non-molestation is it warranted?

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KF31

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My partners ex has always sent him abusive messages since they split. Even when she’s requested communication go through someone else she has still emailed him despite saying she wants no contact. She has previously asked in court to use a communication book to pass over with the children at handovers, but again she was abusive and when my partner put a polite message in there asking for the book to remain civil she refused to use the book again.

The only time my partner doesn’t receive abusive messages is when there are court proceedings taking place. Now proceedings have ended he’s back to receiving harassing messages. Today he received one out of the blue from her, saying he’s to stop bad mouthing her mother to the children and that he will hear from her solicitor with the action she’s taking if it continues. He’s never bad mouthed anyone to the children, it’s her way of causing non existent issues again. He’s sent her a message to say he has no idea what she’s on about as he hasn’t bad mouthed her mother and would appreciate if the harassing messages would stop, he’s asked her to only communicate with him about anything to do with the children. Her reply was a bunch of laughing faces.

Previous to his last court case she was sending messages threatening he wouldn’t see his daughter anymore. He can be as nice as possible in texts or emails but she will find anything to try and cause an argument, he doesn’t get drawn in but it’s exhausting keep getting messages like these.

I was trying to think if there was some way we could get her to stop (probably not) but the only thing I could think of was a non molestation order but I’m not sure if that’s something that would be viable. Is that just for more serious things like DV or can you ask for one of your receiving these types of messages? Will it affect his contact seeing as they would no longer be able to communicate if he was granted one and would he possibly look like he’s just causing issues?
If it is a possibility and he applied for a NMO would it just be a hearing in court regarding that or could it then turn into a whole bunch of hearings again to vary the order? His last court case only finished in Jan so ideally he didn’t want to go to court again, but I don’t see how we can carry on as we are with the abuse.
 
I looked into this once and the solicitor said there are two routes. Either a non molestation order or a police warning for harrassment. The downside with the non molestation order is it can make it difficult to make arrangements for the kids and can get complicated plus it could be seen as a hostile action - she sounds like the type who would then make a counter non molestation order in retaliation and these cases can drag on. The Police harrassment one is the better option but in the end I decided not to pursue it because I was focused on getting the best CAO for my son. Basically if you can prove harrassing messages, regularly and within the last two weeks, the police can go round and give a formal warning. If she continues after the formal warning they can prosecute her. However, it depends what they class as harrassment or seriously abusive messages - they may put it down to "arguing separated parents". If the messages are personal and upsetting it's considered as harrassment and if they are full of hate or threats. But they might not see a threat to stop the children coming as a "threat" in the same way as a threat to burn your house down for example.

Basically I would be cautious about any official route because she may then use the kids to get at him instead and cause them a lot of psychological harm.

In a way the messages are probably useful to print out and file in case you need to go back to court again - to show her attitude and behaviour and his reasonable responses. I cannot tell you how important this type of correspondence can be to Judges. The abusive stream of messages I had and the nasty emails did me a lot of favours in the end. Firstly it got me a shared care order. And the Judge was so horrified by them she wrote a recital about civilised communications.

At a further hearing she had costs ordered against her due to the nasty emails.

So basically I opted to use the court process to deal with it rather than any official preventative action. That did stop them mostly because she knew anything she wrote could be used as evidence against her.

Probably the best thing is ignore her. Don't reply to anything unless it needs a response. Then keep it very very brief. He's already said he won;t communicate about anything unless it's arrangements for the children, so keep to that. Just ignore and don't reply to anything.

I know it can be very stressful though - it's psychological warfare to do your head in. There were times when I was so stressed by it I couldn't face checking my email and would shake afterwards. But strangely it wears off. It was worse during the court process. Once the court process was over I felt more in control, she stopped doing it for a bit, and then when she did it again I wasn't so affected. They are never nice to receive - but putting it to one side for a day and re reading it later helps. Initial read is overwhelming and an emotional response. So put it to one side for a day. On the second read you can be analytical and see - is there anything in there that needs an answer? If not - ignore. Mostly they will be probably - about nothing. If it's a page full of nasty rants with somewhere in the middle a question like - and will you pay half of the school day out next week. Then reply

"Confirm I'll pay half the school day out next week"

And that's it. Don't feed the monster.

Best tip I had from a reasonable Cafcass officer was "don't react - always reply courteously - always show you're the reasonable one and be whiter than white". She had my ex sussed and probably knew something I didn't at the time - that if both sides argue and mud sling in messages it gets classed as conflict between parents.

I was complimented by a Judge on my incredible polite and reasonable responses to her foul messages and in a Judges eyes - that is how they Judge you - by how you behave to such nastiness. It counts a lot.

The other best tip I had was from a reasonable solicitor (the last of four I tried) who guided me through how to respond to certain type of things and which ones to ignore. When I was getting a lot and would pass them to her for advice on responding.

Then you get in the habit of it. So although we sometimes talk about BIFF messages on here (brief informative friendly formal) that only really applies if you need to contact her to discuss something or if there is a need to communicate. But if you just get accusations and nasty messages (her poking at him) then ignore. If she follows up "Why didn't you reply to my message?" Ignore. Or follow up with the repeat "I'll only discuss arrangements for the children" - not regularly obviously, maybe a second time after a few months have passed.

The tricky bit is when there are allegations. It depends what they are as to whether it's best to ignore or send a brief reply "Allegations denied". I tended to find the allegations denied response would just unleash a load more messages telling me I was liar blah blah and repeating them and getting more flowery about it. So reserve that for very serious allegations and then maybe "allegations categorically denied".

She is looking for a fight and to get some kind of interaction and reaction. Don't give it to her. But do keep things civilised and polite if needing to communicate but something. But also very brief. This is not just for court purposes but it helps to keep the kids out of the middle if you deal with some things calmly and politely (showing no reaction).

Strangely I have even found the odd bit of flattery or thoughtfulness works - however much you grit your teeth to do it. It sounds bizarre. Depends - early on it did but not after court. Something like "I know x really enjoys your holidays and I hope you have a lovely time and a good break". Or "thank you for sorting out x - I'll be happy to sort out y".

Hard to give an example really and it depends - sometimes being nice would be a red rag to a bull. But I always kept in mind that everything was evidence and believe me I needed it a few times.
 
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If she gets to realise that he will respond defensively it might encourage her to keep accusing him of things - she's getting interaction out of it. In regard to the one about bad mouthing the ex's Mother. If you think about it, saying he isn't doing that, doesn't prove anything to anyone. If she is going to go round saying that and making these allegations - you can't stop her. I'm sure a court would see it as mud slinging and trite. A cafcass officer might ask you if it was true and he could say no I have never done such a thing but I have a lot of messages accusing me of things and it gets stressful.

On this occasion though it was probably best to deny it - to stop it gaining momentum. But I might have just replied "This is untrue"
 
Just to add, I did resort to a solicitor's letter at one point. Trouble is she'd just send a solicitors letter back then and off it goes. But on a very specific point it helped slightly. Ex sent something accusing me of xyz. I had replied - this is untrue. She then kept replying with saying I was a liar and she knew it was true because she'd asked son xyz and son said xyz (all a bit garbled as you can imagine a child's response would be). Solicitor wrote to her and said something like this is the problem with relying on 8 year olds to relay messages and is why it's important for parents to communicate directly and not involve the child in adult matters.

My ex then regularly accused me of involving the child in adult matters! She'd twist or use anything a lawyer would say and turn it back on you. Hence best to avoid dialogue as much as possible.
 
I have concerns about him reporting it to the police as she has made false allegations to the police about him in the past and I feel that if he reported her she would definitely try and find something to report him to the police at some point.

The concern is before the last case she was feeding things to his daughter getting her to believe he had previously kidnapped her when he hadn’t, it resulted in his daughter saying she didn’t want to go for contact and missed 8 months of proper contact. I’m concerned she could now be trying to use the daughter to try and get her to say things so she has “evidence”.

There is a recital in the order that a communication book should be used for important messages but should not be used to abuse, complain or insult the other. They don’t use a communication book as she refuses so everything goes by text or email.

I’ve found that she calms down during proceedings cause she doesn’t want to give ammunition but as soon as proceedings are over she starts again. I love also found that she always threatens going to a solicitor but then doesn’t. I think this is for two reasons, to try and make him stress and also to try and encourage him to take her to court so that he pays the fees and she then claims to the judges that she’s sick of court and wants to get on with life with her children, playing the victim.
 
Ash said:
If she gets to realise that he will respond defensively it might encourage her to keep accusing him of things - she's getting interaction out of it. In regard to the one about bad mouthing the ex's Mother. If you think about it, saying he isn't doing that, doesn't prove anything to anyone. If she is going to go round saying that and making these allegations - you can't stop her. I'm sure a court would see it as mud slinging and trite. A cafcass officer might ask you if it was true and he could say no I have never done such a thing but I have a lot of messages accusing me of things and it gets stressful.

On this occasion though it was probably best to deny it - to stop it gaining momentum. But I might have just replied "This is untrue"
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I’m concerned she will be telling his daughter what to say if it ever went anywhere so that she has her so called “evidence”. If he denied to to Cafcass but the daughter backed up her mums claims then I think cafcass would believe the ex.
 
Well he's denied it now and it's hardly the worst crime if he had made some comment about his Mother in law that the child overheard. When Cafcass interview they go with how someone comes across and can warm to you if they think you're genuine and may ignore a lot of the ex's minor allegations.

What stage is he at in the court process by the way? It sounds like the ex is the type to coach the daughter but sometimes coaching is picked up.
 
Ash said:
Well he's denied it now and it's hardly the worst crime if he had made some comment about his Mother in law that the child overheard. When Cafcass interview they go with how someone comes across and can warm to you if they think you're genuine and may ignore a lot of the ex's minor allegations.

What stage is he at in the court process by the way? It sounds like the ex is the type to coach the daughter but sometimes coaching is picked up.
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His court proceedings finished in Jan, there was no change to the court order and no reprimand for his ex for breaching despite most of the breaches my partner put forward being found proven.
The issue with Cafcass is he has been to court now 3 times and each time he’s had the same Cafcass officer, she has made it very clear she is biased towards mum and has always brushed off any concern my partner has made, even if it means contradicting what she has previously said in the process. So if he were to ever go to court again and have the same Cafcass officer, I doubt she would look on him in a good light.
 
I think the accusation she was trying to make is that he’s bad mouthed her mouthed directly to the children, not within ear shot,
 
There's always a lull after court and then the next round of bs isn't there. They make up any old crap to get attention. Pathetic.
At least you know the pattern now so can assume there will be further accusations.
 
Non Mol is more for the harassment element, threats, following you and ultimately assault, so unless its a large number of emails/text daily with just random spiteful abuse then no.

I found a simple non reply and ignore to anything that was not about the child worked, she would get bored after a while and stop. If you don't bite then they don't get the gaslighting they aimed for.
 
Peanut 21 said:
There's always a lull after court and then the next round of bs isn't there. They make up any old crap to get attention. Pathetic.
At least you know the pattern now so can assume there will be further accusations.
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It honestly gets so tiring.
 
Scotay said:
Non Mol is more for the harassment element, threats, following you and ultimately assault, so unless its a large number of emails/text daily with just random spiteful abuse then no.

I found a simple non reply and ignore to anything that was not about the child worked, she would get bored after a while and stop. If you don't bite then they don't get the gaslighting they aimed for.
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Thank you, I think we’ll just be ignoring as everyone’s said, it’s just a huge stress thinking every few days that’s she’s going to do something else and possibly start off with false accusations to police etc.
 
That is anxious making if you think she might make more false allegations. One thing your partner could do is speak to the Police, show them the court order, explain the situation that he fears further false allegations ongoing and ask them to make a note of that on file, in case they get any more reports.
 
Ash said:
That is anxious making if you think she might make more false allegations. One thing your partner could do is speak to the Police, show them the court order, explain the situation that he fears further false allegations ongoing and ask them to make a note of that on file, in case they get any more reports.
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Would that not look to the police that he’s planning to do something and trying to cover his own back? I just don’t know how to feel about it all and we never know what to do for the best, the stress it’s having is unreal.
 
Ok - you have all your court papers - the order, the enforcement details. Keep notes and records as you go along. Keeping a diary of what you do when the kids are with you is helpful. What meals you had, what activities, what you watched on TV - that kind of thing.

Then if the Police turn up you just be confident - explain the situation, show them the court orders - tell them she has made alot of false allegations before and they've all be dismissed. The diary could be very useful evidence to counteract any bizarre things she accuses.

And try and relax. It is stressful waiting for the next bomb to drop. But try and put that out of mind and focus on your lives together. If you have to enforce again, a picture will build up.

At enforcement they don't tend to punish - but amend the order so it works better. But if you have to enforce again, a picture starts to build up and a Judge may get heavier or make a judgement. If you get a judgement against her, get a transcript of it - it can be very strong evidence if you have to go back to court again.
 
Ash said:
At enforcement they don't tend to punish - but amend the order so it works better. But if you have to enforce again, a picture starts to build up and a Judge may get heavier or make a judgement. If you get a judgement against her, get a transcript of it - it can be very strong evidence if you have to go back to court again.
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This is where I feel the judge failed in the recent proceedings. She ruled the ex had tried to make the daughter believe she had been kidnapped but said she hadn’t alienated her. My ex asked that there be nothing in the order that states any arrangements have to be decided between them because it’s too difficult and leads to issues and isn’t best for the children. Instead she said the order was staying the same, only difference being he now collects the kids from school instead of her mothers.

In the interim the judge said he was to drop the children off at school on Monday mornings after his weekend, but put in the order they are to be dropped off at ex’s mothers on Sunday evening. His ex has agreed for him to continue dropping them off at school on Mondays and presume she wouldn’t be able to say he’s breaking the order cause he has a text message from her agreeing to it, but it’s just all these little things that could have been tightened up by the judge but weren’t.
Now he’s in the same position as he was before he went to court cause barely anything has changed except pick up location and a few extra recitals.

The judge did a judgement at the end of the last case, it did go against my partner a bit but the judge did say that the ex had belittled him in front of the children, got them to call him by his first name and called him derogatory names. The judge stated that in a face time call that took place the ex’s behaviour was reprehensible, used offensive words in front of his daughter, demeaned him and tried to convince him he had kidnapped their daughter not once but twice, with there being nothing positive at all about how she acted.

Previous to the last hearing I use to keep a document and in it I wrote down all the communication he had with her or her family including texts and emails and what had happened at handovers, if anything was said or not. I think I’m going to do that again as it was useful for us to look back on and remember dates and times of when things happened when he ended up applying to court.
 
Get a transcript of that Judgement. I think the Judge made a big change - pickups and drop offs to and from school make a huge difference and help prevent the situation where the ex says "she doesn't want to come" - child also has the whole school day for transition between parents. Monday morning drop offs are also a big thing. Some people spend 18 months in court just trying to get one extra night.
 
We have the transcript. The order doesn’t say drop offs at school it only says pick ups, but the judge put in the interim order before the last hearing that drop off was to take place at school. My partner has a text from his ex agreeing to him continuing to drop the children off at school despite the order saying drop off on Sundays at her mothers.
 
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