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Mediation: Daughter refusing to see me (again)

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aqua007

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Could use some advice and I'll try to keep this brief:

Have not been with my daughter's mom since she was 1, she is now 13. Up until I remarried, things have been great with mom. 2 years ago my daughter got a phone and there were various issues - she was threatening people online, etc - mom refused to give me access to the parental app to monitor. Things escalated, months later I found hours of her looking at porn over several weeks on the phone - social media usage was out of control, telling friends she lost her virginity (at 11), etc. Concerned, I had a talk with her, no yelling, etc. As I have no way of monitoring her phone in real time (she deletes things), she was told she could not use the phone at our house and to place it in the living room when she was with us. She occasionally snuck it upstairs but this arrangement mostly worked. She then refused to see me and mom supported her. After scheduling mediation, mom backed down and we resumed normal contact.

A month ago I found her again threatening people online and she's given her contact information to someone she's calling her girlfriend in America. Spoke to her about it. Again, she is refusing to see me. This time I scheduled mediation and mom didn't try to talk me out of it. Where she was hostile before about our daughter behaving this way, she is now playing along in mediation saying she 'desperately' wants our daughter to have a relationship with me but she feels I favour her sister and my wife more than her and she just 'can't' think of anything to make her come around. For awhile I called every night to speak to my daughter, she refused and mom and I agreed it wasn't working and we needed to try something else. Now the mediator is suggesting writing her letters - this seems like a time-waster to be frank and a great way for mom to document and twist things.

What are the best options when a child refuses to see you when they don't like the rules at our house? I love my daughter but acknowledge she is emotionally immature - she is using an excuse because she doesn't like the rules at mine. I'm stuck because mediator has all but said if we go to court they will listen to what my daughter wants because she's turning 14 this summer. Mom is playing the game by putting the ball back in my court when I've offered to go to family therapy, have called her nightly, etc. At what point does mom need to step up?
 
Edited it for you :) . Ok so concerning is that Mum controls the parental app and is allowing all this to happen. Which is putting your daughter at risk of delinquency and more. It sounds to me like Mum is quite happy that daughter doesn't see you and would rather daughter became delinquent than co parent with you over this issue.

I wouldn't say it's not possible to get a court order at 13 nearly 14. If she was 15 then maybe yes. Because you have a specific issue. And actually what you could do is just apply for a specific issues order - that says you will provide and monitor her phone in future and Mum is to no longer be involved with this due to the concerns and is not allowed to provide her with another phone. That way your daughter will want to come, even without a child arrangements order.

On the other hand, the timing is about the same for specific issues or child arrangements. If it's an urgent matter (eg holiday in two weeks time) then a specific issues application is quick - within a week and a half day hearing all sorted on the day. But for an issue like this it will take as long for an initial hearing as applying for a Child Arrangements order. So you might as well do that and include the phone business as a specific issue within it.

I think it's worth applying - you could make a strong case - it would need to be carefully worded and you'd need evidence (do you have screenshots of some of this stuff from her phone?). Technically it's a failure of parenting on Mum's part.

Having said that - I have no access to my son's phone - similar. My ex has it locked with a passcode and my son is not allowed to give it to me. He probably would if I insisted but would seriously get punished by my ex if he did (she doesn't want me to see all the awful texts she sends to him). So I don't see what he does on his phone. But I am pretty sure it is nothing like you;'re seeing - he mainly whatsapps his friends. And yes they do have secrets and a private life at that age. And if you didn't know then presumably you wouldn't worry about it - as long as she behaved ok otherwise.

And I am not entirely sure how seriously the court would take it - unless you had evidence of seriously disturbing or illegal stuff.

I also have a rule that my 13 year old son leaves his phone downstairs at night. No internet in the bedroom. He has a computer downstairs as well. Because otherwise they stay up till 3am messing about and school suffers (and health).

And it's really difficult when the other parent has no rules at all (in my case my ex is deliberately like that to try and tempt him to stay there more and not want to come here).

Thirteen is a funny age too. I am having to learn a whole different way of talking to my son. You can't kind of enforce things the same any more or be strict or they rebel - it has to be more rational conversations and deciding things together I've found.

It's the one "rule" I still stick by - leaving the phone downstairs and I get sullen looks. And yes I think it is the kind of thing a teenager might say - well I'm not coming then. But your ex is obliged to encourage your daughter to come (her responsibility) and to resolve this issue with you,

Honestly, isn't your ex bothered by the porn? And the cyberbullying! I am not even sure how you'd stop it to be honest other than talking to her. I had a conversation with my son recently about how once you post a photo online or write something on social media - it';s on the internet forever and you need to be careful or one day you might regret something or actually break a law by arguing with someone online. He's ok he takes that onboard and knows when I'm being serious about something.

Their phones are a xxxxing nightmare tbh. They're on them all the time. Try to get my son doing something outside at week-ends and his behaviour improves dramatically.

So - you could apply for a CAO (she will say she can't make your daughter come and a wishy washy Cafcass officer or Judge might agree and say - you can't make a teenager do something). But a good one would say - this is the Mother;s responsibility and a failure of parenting and the Mother must follow the order and explain to the daughter that it is for her own best interests she sees both parents regularly. And maybe add a clause about who provides the phone.

Even with a wishy washy Judge, if you have a good statement and evidence they would have to do something. So I think you'd get a result. But yes Cafcass will talk to your daughter and if she says she doesn't want to come they might agree that';s her choice. Which is why you have to have a good statement and evidence and show concern for her welfare.

How is she otherwise? Apart from the phone issue. If it was my ex I know she would be encouraging my son not to come and rubbishing my house rules (manipulating a teenager basically and their ego) saying she could understand why son didn't like xyz and why not just stay here and do what you want. That kind of thing.

But apart from the phone run in, how is your daughter with you otherwise - does she have fun, talk to you? Have activities at your house?

How long since you've seen her?

Basically if you're not seeing her at all I would probably apply to court for a Child Arrangements order and specific issues order (same form - only one fee - about £230). But it depends how much you want to spend. If you had a barrister for final hearing you could get a good result. If you did it yourself you might get somewhere but it's not guaranteed with so much prejudice about this area at this age.
 
Your ex is in the wrong - she shouldn't be supporting this. Mediation hasn't persuaded her (mediator sounds a bit biased and hasn't helped really).

One thing you can't do is confiscate their phone or they will rebel. But a house rule like not having it in the bedroom at night is reasonable if you explain why - eg bedroom is for sleeping - and do it in a good humoured way. Win her over kind of. I let mine stay up much later though now.
 
Suggest the first thing is try sending an email to your ex. So it's fairly formal but friendly. For a start off this provides you with written evidence if you do decide to take it further and your ex might sense that and just behave.

Something like

"Dear Ex Name

Our Daughter

As you know I have had concerns for some time about what daughter is doing online on her phone and feel it is something we should both be dealing with as parents to keep her on the straight and narrow. As mentioned before, I feel we should both have access to parental monitoring, and discuss any issues we find and both talk to her about what is and isn't ok to do on her phone, with suitable sanctions if she breaks the rules.

I am disappointed that mediation hasn't helped us to reach any agreements over this and that you are actually encouraging our daughter not to see me any more. She needs both parents during these risky teenage years and I am concerned that while solely using the parental monitoring app, you're allowing her to view porn and send threatening messages to people online. This is verging on criminal behaviour and she needs guidance, for her own wellbeing and protection and to avoid possible delinquency.

I therefore ask that you a) explain to our daughter the importance of having both parents in her life while she is growing up and make it clear what our arrangements are for when she sees each of us. And b) Agree that we will both monitor her phone and have an occasional discussion over how to proceed if she does anything dangerous or unsuitable. It is not good for our daughter if you let her do whatever she wants and make me out to be the bad guy. I think it's really important that we work together on this issue and she has two happy stable homes and isn't able to play us off against each other - and that takes us, as adults and parents, to co parent well on this issue.

Please can you let me know if you agree and confirm that daughter name will be available to collect on x date for the week-end.

Regards, you"


She'll know it's not your usual type of communication but the style of it means you have immediately created some evidence to show what the issue is and what's going on. Her response (if any) will also be evidence. If she doesn't reply at all that's evidence as well - that she;s ignoring welfare issues and refusing to co parent.

If she doesn't sort this out with you then,. Then put in a C100 (ask to be signed off mediation now - but ask the mediator on your own and don't let your ex know). You need that in case you decided to submit the C100 for an order and it can take them 2 weeks to get it to you.

It won't sound like a silly argument over phones if you make it clear in the application it's a serious welfare issue and your ex is actually encouraging lack of safety rules so your daughter doesn't want to see you. And not explaining to her the importance of being with both parents.

What was your schedule before this happened? As in how often did she come and was it a regular every other week-end some midweek time and half school holidays?
 
Ash said:
Suggest the first thing is try sending an email to your ex. So it's fairly formal but friendly. For a start off this provides you with written evidence if you do decide to take it further and your ex might sense that and just behave.

Something like

"Dear Ex Name

Our Daughter

As you know I have had concerns for some time about what daughter is doing online on her phone and feel it is something we should both be dealing with as parents to keep her on the straight and narrow. As mentioned before, I feel we should both have access to parental monitoring, and discuss any issues we find and both talk to her about what is and isn't ok to do on her phone, with suitable sanctions if she breaks the rules.

I am disappointed that mediation hasn't helped us to reach any agreements over this and that you are actually encouraging our daughter not to see me any more. She needs both parents during these risky teenage years and I am concerned that while solely using the parental monitoring app, you're allowing her to view porn and send threatening messages to people online. This is verging on criminal behaviour and she needs guidance, for her own wellbeing and protection and to avoid possible delinquency.

I therefore ask that you a) explain to our daughter the importance of having both parents in her life while she is growing up and make it clear what our arrangements are for when she sees each of us. And b) Agree that we will both monitor her phone and have an occasional discussion over how to proceed if she does anything dangerous or unsuitable. It is not good for our daughter if you let her do whatever she wants and make me out to be the bad guy. I think it's really important that we work together on this issue and she has two happy stable homes and isn't able to play us off against each other - and that takes us, as adults and parents, to co parent well on this issue.

Please can you let me know if you agree and confirm that daughter name will be available to collect on x date for the week-end.

Regards, you"


She'll know it's not your usual type of communication but the style of it means you have immediately created some evidence to show what the issue is and what's going on. Her response (if any) will also be evidence. If she doesn't reply at all that's evidence as well - that she;s ignoring welfare issues and refusing to co parent.

If she doesn't sort this out with you then,. Then put in a C100 (ask to be signed off mediation now - but ask the mediator on your own and don't let your ex know). You need that in case you decided to submit the C100 for an order and it can take them 2 weeks to get it to you.

It won't sound like a silly argument over phones if you make it clear in the application it's a serious welfare issue and your ex is actually encouraging lack of safety rules so your daughter doesn't want to see you. And not explaining to her the importance of being with both parents.

What was your schedule before this happened? As in how often did she come and was it a regular every other week-end some midweek time and half school holidays?
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When you say ask to be signed off mediation now, what do you mean by that exactly? End mediation? Apologies, this process is new to me and I'm not familiar with the C100 form.

Mum definitely cares about being called out about what our daughter does on the phone but she'd never admit that to me. On the TikTok post where she said she lost her virginity her mum commented on it and told her to take it down - she didn't. So I know these things bother her but she also doesn't follow through and her 'monitoring' is normally only done after I find something - because of this I think she takes it personally and sees it as an attack on her pristine mothering.

My daughter has always been prone to pouting and silent treatments, as I mentioned, she's emotionally immature but I fully believe mum needs to be supporting me in this, if the roles were reversed I wouldn't let her treat or talk to her mum this way. Most of the time we've done 65/35 - for awhile we did 60/40, then after the phone incident mum flew into a rage and tried to tell child maintenance she has always had her 100% of the time. I've always documented my time with her so that was easy enough to straighten out and get it back to 65/35.

I wasn't appreciative of the mediator suggesting the court would likely go with what my daughter wants. Fully understand as a father I don't have equal rights and maybe I'm being optimistic here but I like to think the courts would want both parents involved - I expressed this on the call and it went largely ignored by the mediator. Understand they have a job to do and want results at the end of the day but this is my life and child we're talking about here.

I really appreciate your feedback - any language I can sprinkle in with the mediator to make her understand I know what's going on would be great. Any tactics you'd suggest?
 
Forgot to mention something - when I found the porn on her phone I sent screen shots from her phone on whatsapp to her mum saying it was me and this is what I found on her phone. She quite frankly panicked and wiped everything from my daughters phone before I could capture it. I think because it's been documented in discussions via text/email that should be sufficient proof but unfortunately I don't have the original screen grabs. What I have this time though is her communicating with someone who says they're a 14 year old girl in America saying she loves her, etc. I also have chats where she tells people online she hopes they die, etc. Before contact was made with the mediator mum said the problem was the relationship between my daughter and I. Now, because she's trying to appear cooperative, she's waxing poetic about how she's now monitoring her online activity. She offered to meet up and show me how she's monitoring it but of course hasn't followed through.

If I apply for a CAO what's the likely result? Is this the best way forward in your opinion?
 
"If the roles were reversed I wouldn't let her treat or talk to her mum this way." Exactly. Maybe you could try saying that to your ex. Yes of course if you raise the issue, your ex will deny it and say any issues are sorted now. Probably best you don't have those screenshots actually or it might make you look dodgy too (even if they're on daughter's phone). Actually Whatsapp history isn't on the phone, it's on the account. So if her history was set to automatic backup, they'd still be there, archived, if deleted off the phone. But you don't have access to the phone I guess.

It sounds like the mediation has all been about your daughter not seeing you, and not the reasons she went like that. ie the phone issues and your concerns.

I'd say though they are going to start having romantic relationships at this age - the problem with online ones is it could be some adult pretending to be a child (ie grooming).

Sorry for not explaining. Most people have mediation to try and sort things out without going to court (which a lot of the time doesn't work). Most mediators know that if you don't get things resolved then there will be a court application next and they usually offer to "sign you off" when you're not getting anywhere or decide to stop mediation.

So are you still carrying on trying with the mediation? And if so could the mediator do family mediation, including your daughter (although personally I'm not a fan of that idea as the child will say what they think one parent wants them to say sometimes - or not really know themselves what's bothering them).

So for twelve years you've had a regularly relationship with your daughter. Assume you have a good bond. Do you have another child with your partner then that lives with you full time? I think there can be difficulties or jealousies sometimes between kids but after all these years?

So if you wanted to apply to court you contact the mediator and say you don't want mediation to progress and ask them to send you the sign off form. This form is a page from the C100 form (the C100 form is the application for a child arrangements order - to legalise the time). You're required by law to have tried mediation before you can apply - in fact you're only really required to have attended the first assessment session on your own to apply on the C100 but they prefer you to have tried mediation.

It sounds like throughout all this mediation, your ex has not made any attempt to think how it is for you not seeing your daughter or show willing to sort something out.

I don't know what your ex is like but it is very common for Mums to say "he/she doesn't want to come" when they get over 12 - because at 12 courts take the child's wishes more seriously. Which is what the mediator means saying they will do what the child wants - but that isn't the case.

The child's expressed wishes are only a part of the welfare checklist and their "best interests" can override their wishes. Which is why it's called "ascertainable" wishes. ie not what they actually say but whether it seems genuine or not (Because some of them are coached to say something like "I only want to see Mum" or something.

But yes the child's wishes are taken more seriously once they are over 12. Which is why I said you'd need a strong argument and evidence. What are the chances? That's an uncertain question. It's usually a last resort when you can't see your kids and you give it a good go - I don't know the percentages of chance - some depends on circumstances. In your case you have had regular time virtually all of your daughter's life. It's not as if you haven't seen her for years. So there'd be a precedent that she lived with both parents. If there are no court orders then technically neither of you has "residency". So when you apply to court its either for lives with both parents, or lives with Mother and "spends time with" Dad. Residency and "contact" are now called "lives with" and "spends time with". The difference being that the parent they live with is the "parent with care" which gives them more power. It shouldn't matter but some abuse it. Better if it's "lives with both parents". Especially after your history.

So the Mother would be expected to keep "encouraging" her to go to your house. That's a term they use but basically all it needs is both parents to say - you're at your Dads/Mum's this week-end. And arrangements made between parents. If your daughter genuinely said she didn't want to go or wanted to go to some event that week-end that clashed with your plans - then it's for the parents to say - can we swap week-ends so she can go to this. But to stop coming altogether -

Presumably your daughter loves you and vice versa. After all these years. And this is a blip maybe - but you can hardly discuss things with her and sort it out if you don't see her. So her Mother is taking advantage of the situation - your ex should be agreeing phone rules with you. Sometimes you can't agree. And actually it's ok to have different house rules. But when it comes to their welfare you need to know what she's doing when in your house.

Your ex seems to be taking the approach of - wipe the phone and ignore it. And not dealing with it maybe.

If you're looking at your daughter's phone she won't like that either - so monitoring is better - and your daughter knowing you're both monitoring things. Sanctions for misuse of the phone could be agreed between you and ex. But what sometimes works better is getting them interested in a new project or something. My son has done nothing but computers and complaining he's bored until recently but has now started a course with friends - volunteering and week-ends away. He's got keen on something more social.

It doesn't sound like mediation is getting anywhere because nobody is forcing your ex to do anything. And the mediator sounds a bit negative and not telling your ex its her responsibility to tell daughter she should go to you when she's supposed to and her responsibility to sort out phone issues with you.

Also sounds like it might be something to do with the run in over Child Maintenance payments. That;s common too - if they get annoyed about CM they can start witholding the kids - or manipulating them by saying they don't have to see you etc. Kind of spite really.

The two are often linked. So she wanted more and you got it assessed at 65/35 - suddenly daughter doesn't want to come so ex can say daughter is with her 100% and get more CM.

I would suggest something else maybe - if you can afford it. Say you want to make a family based arrangement to ex for CM. That's an amount you agree between you rather than the amount assessed. Again depends on circumstances. Doesn't make a huge amount of £ difference to me if I pay the full rate or the reduced rate because I'm not on a high income. So I pay x amount a month which is slightly over my assessed rate. And my ex knows if she goes to the CMS she'll get less.

But your ex maybe feels she's got nothing to lose - she's getting the full whack now because your daughter's not seeing you.

So I suspect this is not your daughter but your ex. In fact your daughter might be feeling under pressure and it coming out online more if she feels in the middle or pressurised. Or your ex may have been derogating you and saying you wouldn't pay money blah blah (ie turning daughter against you).

Court doesn't deal with the finances. CM is supposed to be separate, but it is related. So some messing about going on as the CM wouldn't come up as a reason for daughter not coming.

Are things reasonably amicable at the moment or not? With your ex. Just wondering if there's some leverage to sort this out before applying to court.
 
If you did apply to court I would say that you've had informal arrangements for 12 years with your daughter spending between 35% and 40% of the time with you. That she has a long standing established family home with both parents and has had close relationships with both parents since the age of 1 when you and Mrs Ex separated. That mostly things have been amicable, but recently Mrs Ex wanted more maintenance but the CMS assessed it to allow for the 35% of time your daughter is with you and since then Mrs Ex has claimed your daughter doesn't want to see you. And is now claiming 100% CMS.

You feel this is out of character for your daughter and that it is her Mother's responsibility to explain that it's important for her to continue relationships with both parents, for her best interests, as opposed to actively encouraging her not to come. You have been trying to resolve this issue at mediation but Mrs Ex as actively encouraging daughter not to come "if she doesn't want to".

Prior to your daughter not coming you had some serious welfare concerns over your daughter accessing porn on her phone and threatening other people online and you have serious concerns. You raised these with Mrs Ex who refuses to discuss the matter. You suggested to Mrs Ex that both parents should have access to a parental monitoring app and discuss between parents if there are any issues or what to do about it, but Mrs Ex declined to do this. And now says your daughter doesn't want to see you and you feel your daughter is being manipulated.

You feel this is a welfare issue and ask the court to make an order to ensure your daughter may live with both her parents, resume the 60/40 schedule, and to inform Mrs Ex that both parents must comply with this court order. That you would not dream of cutting your daughter off from her other parent and family. And you ask the court to include a clause whereby you will provide and manage your daughter's phone with a suitable parental app and that Mrs Ex will not provide your daughter with an alternative phone. So your daughter can use the internet safely. And you are happy for both parents to have access to the parental monitoring app.

I think you would have a good chance if you had someone good represent you.

The way it works is. You put in an application with something like the above. Within 2 or 3 weeks the court issue a hearing date and send the copy of your application and hearing date to your ex. Before the hearing date you get a letter from Cafcass (court social worker) with an appointment date for a telephone appointment. They speak to both you and your ex to see what the issues are and then write a brief report - this is to see if there are any safeguarding concerns. The first hearing is called FHDRA (First Hearing Dispute Resolution Appointment) where they try to get parents to agree to an order. If no agreement it goes to a further hearing (final hearing) where you have statements and evidence arguing your case. And one side usually "wins" the case. If your ex's only argument is that daughter doesn't want to come then she may get short shrift for what she's doing. I do know of people who've had orders enforced for 13 and 14 year olds because it's the parents' responsibility to teach the child it's important they go to both homes.
 
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Just picked up something else from your initial marriage. You mentioned until you remarried. Is that recently? Very common for an ex to stop child coming when Dad has a new wife (ie child now has a stepmum). Some Mums are competitive like that (which is silly).

If that's the case - ie when the issues started - that needs mentioning - because it's so common and the court will see straight away that this is your ex doing this - not your daughter. Did the phone purchase coincide with you getting married? My ex got my son a phone so she could interfere with his time here - lots of private messaging, tracking him even.
 
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