Looking for advice with alienated teenager

[Alocacoc]

Evening,

I split up with ex around 10 years ago. we dont speak but I thought we were pretty neutral, Daughter (14) was old enough to arrange weekly visits herself.

My daughter has always/ or was a complete daddies girl. I never sensed this coming in 1000 years.

Early May i had to fairly & constructively criticise her over something, I then received a huge ranting message off her mom saying i am "unreasonable & Anxiety inducing" then telling me to stop contacting our daughter.

Apparently Her mom booked her into the doctors and got her diagnosed with Tics & Eating disorder In January yet totally withheld this info from me till her rant in May, she then went on to say Im the cause of it. This totally blew my mind because my daughter and I always have fun, and I dont remember ever raising my voice, plus there was never any signs of tics or eating issues, when with me.

I was basically ghosted then till July when my daughter replied to a message saying it would be nice to see me, "she will ask her mom."...POOOF she ghosted me again.

After trying to call & text at fair intervals, she then messaged me again in August claiming i'm not interested in her and we don't have much to look forward to anyway. we also dont go for "nice restaurants & clothes shopping" like other parents do & it hurt her when I told her about all the women I took for meals!!!! This blew my mind because the whole thing was one big lie and gaslighting, Ive then been re-ghosted and its Now October.

She has also cut my parents off completely and ghosted them, as two pensioners they have never experienced this and its destroyed my mom, let alone me.

Her mom replied to one message "daughter has come to this conclusion all by herself and her(moms) conscience is clear. take care"

A friend checked there socials for me, and the amount of obscene gifts she is purchased after cutting me off, are out of this world, puppy, new phone, lip pierced etc etc

So I find myself here, my daughter who I love so much has gone like the member of a cult, I didnt think she would do this at 14 its blew my mind and left me full of feeling betrayed & anger etc

Ive had a meeting with the headteacher and solicitor, I literally tick 15 of the 17 alienating check lists, and they just all looked at me like they dont even believe its a thing.
I was trying to point out to the teacher this isnt "low interest" this is "cut off" I told her even abused kids dont cut there parent off. she replied "sounds like a family dispute" they all also said at 14-15 they will trust the childs decision......what craziness

sorry for the rant , but can anyone suggest what to do, part of me doesnt like her for whats she done at 14, after Ive never failed to turn up weekly, but part of me wants to sympathise and accept shes been brainwashed

Cheers

 

[MagicJ]

Hi @Alocacoc ,

Firstly welcome to the forum, this is a good place to sound out your frustrations and get advice from people who have had to navigate similar challenges.

I'm sorry you've found yourself in such a heartbreaking situation, having spent all these years giving you daughter the best and for her to appreciate it, you're suddenly faced with a situation you never expected.

From reading the forum, what I've learnt is that most professionals involved with children aren't trained to pickup PA and calling that out directly, in the court system especially can be counter-productive.

My experience of academic staff is that they will not get involved in any struggle between parents but by that same token they will not prevent you from attending the school at pickup and drop-off provided it is kept civil.

I appreciate you've already spoken to them and it wasn't helpful.

Have you been doing any pickup/dropoffs, do you talk to any teachers, parents evening, other events?

If the school is familiar with you then maybe try a more indirect approach to ask them for help, focus on your concern for her:

- you believe she is going through a difficult time
- explain that it came to light recently, as mum hasn't told you, about her condition, ask the school aware of it? is there a plan in place to help her manage it?
- ask the school if they have a counselling service, can they reach out to your daughter and just explore everything is okay
- tell them it doesn't need to have come from you and you don't need details, only to know that is okay or if you should be focussed on any additional support for your daughter
- maybe get a meeting booked in with the year head just to get an update on her academic progress, so you can track it against future school reports

I'm sure the others with greater experience will comment as well, a few bits of info might help:

- is there any child arrangements order in place formally via courts?
- what has the pattern of childcare been between you and her mum
- how long does she spend with each of you
- has the pattern been consistent last few years

Also, just add, have you or your ex re-partnered recently, I notice you mentioned comments from daughter about gifts for women, have you started dating last few months?

This can usually be a trigger for this type of sudden change.

I feel your pain, my parents have lost out, not completely but definitely significantly reduced contact and it is difficult for them.

 

[MagicJ]

I will also add, if there are alienating behaviours then your daughter is in a difficult place.

She's caught in a loyalty conflict and she's being forced to choose unfairly.

The acting out is exactly that, it's not her normal behaviour so try not to hold it against her, focus on who you know she is and don't give up, keep reaching out.

There is a good book on this topic, many have found it useful, as did I, it's available in an audio format as well:

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do... by Amy J.L. Baker

Buy Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You by Amy J.L. Baker, Paul R Fine (ISBN: 9781608829583) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

This approaches common alienating behaviours, how they can present and what you can do to reframe your approach to help push back.

Stay Strong

 

[Alocacoc]

I will also add, if there are alienating behaviours then your daughter is in a difficult place.

She's caught in a loyalty conflict and she's being forced to choose unfairly.

The acting out is exactly that, it's not her normal behaviour so try not to hold it against her, focus on who you know she is and don't give up, keep reaching out.

There is a good book on this topic, many have it useful, it's available in an audio format as well:

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do... by Amy J.L. Baker

Buy Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You by Amy J.L. Baker, Paul R Fine (ISBN: 9781608829583) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

This approaches common alienating behaviours, how they can present and what you can do to reframe your approach to help push back.

Stay Strong

Thanks for your reply,

havent seen at her at all since May we went away for a great weekend, had a lovely time. then as soon as I had to do normal parenting it seemed to tip things over the edge. I gather mom has been training her to be victimized for quite some time and she has resisted it until now.

The school said she had been seeing pastoral care over a "low mood" which would coincide with her not seeing her dad I presume.

Every weekend she has been coming to me Sat-Sun but I noted her mom wouldnt give any leeway on this or let her stop on a school night where as she used to.
I had a court order in place just under 10 years ago for weekend visits, but solicitor said this will basically be debunked now with her almost 15.

The reason I knew her message was baffling was because I havent dated since August 2022 or mentioned other women to her. I even have a rule that I only treat an established girlfriend to food dates, so I knew I hadnt told her about all these women I take for food.

In April I took her driving lessons on private land, we went away for the weekend, and I took her to a historic mansion. so when she put "we dont really have much to look forward to" it blew my mind. I also sensed extreme materialism and entitlement in her messages, but shes never been like that.

she said shes cut my mom & dad off because they gave her a birthday card a day late. Apparently frivolous and baffling reasons of removing extended family are a major sign of P.A?

 

[MagicJ]

I'm unclear on where the courts sit with that age, mine are primary school ages.

If you can answer whatever you are comfortable with from those in the first post, it will be helpful to anyone who comments over the next day or two.

So was the arrangement alternate weekends in full, no overnights in the week?

I presume that was a 'spends time with' order and mother was resident parent?

When did arrangements change, you mention mother became strict on weekdays time?

If the trigger isn't your dating what about Mother, had she recently repartnered?

Those sound like fun activities, driving at 14!

How was day to day parenting before the incident and withholding happened?

 

[Ash]

Unfortunately these ex's do choose this kind of age to do this, knowing it can take a year to go through court, and by then they'll say - she's 15 going on 16.

It is crazy that in so many areas of life they say children that age can decide for themselves. But they can't always - the pressures are too great.

Do you still have text contact with your daughter? The way through this might be to be consistently there and loving. I don't mean bombard her with texts I mean maybe send one a week - fairly upbeat about something about your week and saying you love her.

 

[Ash]

That's a good point Magic makes. If you have an existing court order, it still stands. Enforcing it would be very difficult though as it would heavily rely on child's wishes and your daughter would say what her Mother wants her to say.

 

[Alocacoc]

I'm unclear on where the courts sit with that age, mine are primary school ages.

If you can answer whatever you are comfortable with from those in the first post, it will be helpful to anyone who comments over the next day or two.

So was the arrangement alternate weekends in full, no overnights in the week?

I presume that was a 'spends time with' order and mother was resident parent?

When did arrangements change, you mention mother became strict on weekdays time?

If the trigger isn't your dating what about Mother, had she recently repartnered?

Those sound like fun activities, driving at 14!

How was day to day parenting before the incident and withholding happened?

 

[Alocacoc]

I'm unclear on where the courts sit with that age, mine are primary school ages.

If you can answer whatever you are comfortable with from those in the first post, it will be helpful to anyone who comments over the next day or two.

So was the arrangement alternate weekends in full, no overnights in the week?

I presume that was a 'spends time with' order and mother was resident parent?

When did arrangements change, you mention mother became strict on weekdays time?

If the trigger isn't your dating what about Mother, had she recently repartnered?

Those sound like fun activities, driving at 14!

How was day to day parenting before the incident and withholding happened?

Mom is the resident parent & has had partner for around 4 years, the court order was for every weekend saturday to sunday, and for a good few years this worked fine, she also wanted to stop extra nights and did. But I noticed her mom got really tight on that in the last 18 months and it kind of went back to the saturday-sunday. I would offer the daughter to do things in the week but it felt like I was extracting teeth, I presumed it was just normal teenager stuff. Shes a very well behaved girl tbf, excellent grades and such, me and her mom kind of stopped speaking as she got a little older she could arrange visits herself etc

Unfortunately these ex's do choose this kind of age to do this, knowing it can take a year to go through court, and by then they'll say - she's 15 going on 16.

It is crazy that in so many areas of life they say children that age can decide for themselves. But they can't always - the pressures are too great.

Do you still have text contact with your daughter? The way through this might be to be consistently there and loving. I don't mean bombard her with texts I mean maybe send one a week - fairly upbeat about something about your week and saying you love her.

She doesnt reply to my texts Im afraid,s she also doesnt say "leave me alone" however twice her phone has worked perfect when she has wanted to criticise me and parrot her moms words during this 6 month ghosting period. Its really gobsmacked me, I also noticed that when they send these baffling texts they never reply to my disputing of the gaslighting. its almost like there trying to get me de-balled and compliant. Then they recoil when I stand up for myself

 

[Ash]

Are you sure the messages are actually from your daughter? When my ex was doing this she would send messages from my son's phone - I recognised her style! They were always nasty ones. Or she would stand over him and dictate a message to send to me. Difference was I was still seeing him regularly, so when he came we just carried on as normal. He knew I knew it wasn't him in the messages and he wasn't happy about it.

I think I would try communicating with your ex. However, as Magic asked, has anything happened recently to trigger this? Do you have a new partner recently? The message about gifts for women sounds more like your ex to me.

However your daughter is rejecting you, and your ex is probably getting a kick out of you being angry and upset about it. Hence don't let her see that. That's why I was suggesting some low key communication with your ex perhaps? I know she has said all sorts but you can try.

How about

"Hi. I'm just wondering how xxxxx is doing. I miss her very much and hope she can see me again soon. If there are any issues I would like to work with you to resolve them. I don't think it's good for her to lose all contact with a parent and would really like to try and sort something out".

Now ok - you might need to write that with gritted teeth - but it's opening a dialogue. And you may get a nasty reply, but it's worth a try.

 

[MagicJ]

Mom is the resident parent & has had partner for around 4 years, the court order was for every weekend saturday to sunday, and for a good few years this worked fine, she also wanted to stop extra nights and did. But I noticed her mom got really tight on that in the last 18 months and it kind of went back to the saturday-sunday. I would offer the daughter to do things in the week but it felt like I was extracting teeth, I presumed it was just normal teenager stuff. Shes a very well behaved girl tbf, excellent grades and such, me and her mom kind of stopped speaking as she got a little older she could arrange visits herself etc

She doesnt reply to my texts Im afraid,s she also doesnt say "leave me alone" however twice her phone has worked perfect when she has wanted to criticise me and parrot her moms words during this 6 month ghosting period. Its really gobsmacked me, I also noticed that when they send these baffling texts they never reply to my disputing of the gaslighting. its almost like there trying to get me de-balled and compliant. Then they recoil when I stand up for myself

Reading this I'm inclined to agree with Ash, if that's the only two messages you've gotten this could very much be direct intervention and not her sending those messages.

One of the hardest lessons I've learnt so far is to constantly remind the kids that I love them, no matter what they say or do and I will always love them.

It might take sometime for her to return to you or discover what the real trigger has been but making yourself available for her like this will relieve any anxiety she may have over what's happening in her life

It will create a situation for that one day where she really wants or needs to talk to you and at that point she will know there are no barriers on your side, no recriminations for her, no angst, Dad is there and loves her, and will pick up the phone etc.

 

[Peanut 21]

Welcome @Alocacoc
My partner is in your situation.
Have you ever read anything by Karen Woodall?
She is doing a zoom talk on Monday 6-8pm for parents in the rejected position.
Here's the link...

The Lighthouse Keepers: Shining a Light on Reality

In a world which can feel unpredictable, terrifying and unsafe, the concept of Lighthouse Keeping is one which I use, to enable a sense of stability and security within for those who have suffered …

karenwoodall.blog

 

[Peanut 21]

sorry for the rant , but can anyone suggest what to do, part of me doesnt like her for whats she done at 14, after Ive never failed to turn up weekly, but part of me wants to sympathise and accept shes been brainwashed

Don't be angry at your daughter. She's in a terrible loyalty bind. They (mother) want you to blame the child.

 

[Alocacoc]

Are you sure the messages are actually from your daughter? When my ex was doing this she would send messages from my son's phone - I recognised her style! They were always nasty ones. Or she would stand over him and dictate a message to send to me. Difference was I was still seeing him regularly, so when he came we just carried on as normal. He knew I knew it wasn't him in the messages and he wasn't happy about it.

I think I would try communicating with your ex. However, as Magic asked, has anything happened recently to trigger this? Do you have a new partner recently? The message about gifts for women sounds more like your ex to me.

However your daughter is rejecting you, and your ex is probably getting a kick out of you being angry and upset about it. Hence don't let her see that. That's why I was suggesting some low key communication with your ex perhaps? I know she has said all sorts but you can try.

How about

"Hi. I'm just wondering how xxxxx is doing. I miss her very much and hope she can see me again soon. If there are any issues I would like to work with you to resolve them. I don't think it's good for her to lose all contact with a parent and would really like to try and sort something out".

Now ok - you might need to write that with gritted teeth - but it's opening a dialogue. And you may get a nasty reply, but it's worth a try.

I fully agree that she has wrote them however her mom has been advising her. I could tell straight away because the "nice meals and clothes shopping" is what her mom is obsessed with. I reckon shes tried to pick apart every weekend and my daughters ended up supplying her a small victim story for her.

Mom= "how was your weekend?"
Daughter = "good"
Mom = " Realllly only good?"
Daughter "we watched a movie and dad took me to work for two hours in his truck"
Mom = "Whattttttt hes so self centred in the only time he gets to spend with you they didnt arrange shopping or a nice meal"

I also told her we would get a puppy when I leave my flat, the first thing her mom has "rewarded" her with is a puppy, bare in mind they already have 2 dogs.

Unfortunately mine and moms communication is hanging round with the titanic , I told her I knew what she was up to and she replied "leave us alone" she also said "not once have you asked me how daughter is" .....I literally message my daughter every fortnight asking how she is and get ignored. the entitlement from them is shocking.......its like "you called us 5 times, if you really loved her you would call 15"

 

[Alocacoc]

Welcome @Alocacoc
My partner is in your situation.
Have you ever read anything by Karen Woodall?
She is doing a zoom talk on Monday 6-8pm for parents in the rejected position.
Here's the link...

The Lighthouse Keepers: Shining a Light on Reality

In a world which can feel unpredictable, terrifying and unsafe, the concept of Lighthouse Keeping is one which I use, to enable a sense of stability and security within for those who have suffered …

karenwoodall.blog

Ive watched some vids ill take a look thank you

 

[Peanut 21]

not once have you asked me how daughter is" .

This has struck a chord. There must be a guide book for these women. My partners ex has said the same about his children. So he then asks about them (again, as already asks how they are) and she then ignores him.

 

[Peanut 21]

The major thing that gets me is, that even if a kid says they don't want to see dad is, no-one then asks mum to help to get to bottom of the issue.

 

[Ash]

Ok well acting unpredictable is quite an effective technique sometimes ie sending an email like the one I suggested above. If you say things like "I know what you're doing" it doesn't change what she's doing and she knows she has got to you - but I understand how sending things like that happens. The frustration and anger at what they are doing is immense. But let that out on here and try a few strategies.

Entitlement and materialism seems to be a common thing with alienating ex's. One thing I used to find helped at times (not always but sometimes) was flattery. Again teeth gritting time. They have huge egos.

So how about a slightly different version of the email

Hi. I'm just wondering how xxxxx is doing. I know you're a great Mum and you two will be having good times and doing fun girl things. I do miss her very much and hope she can see me again soon. If there are any issues I would like to work with you to resolve them. I don't think it's good for her to lose all contact with a parent - it can affect them at this age and for the future - and would really like to try and sort something out."

Acting unpredictable is just that - acting. To try and achieve something. Your ex has all the power at the moment. It does no harm to send a message like that. She may think about it. It means swallowing pride a bit. Now I know you'll say she'll know it's not your normal kind of message but that's the acting unpredictable bit. Confuse the enemy.

By being yourself there is a kind of dynamic there between you and she knows how to push your buttons.

 

[Alocacoc]

This has struck a chord. There must be a guide book for these women. My partners ex has said the same about his children. So he then asks about them (again, as already asks how they are) and she then ignores him.

I know its like they all copy & paste regardless of where they live in the world or even know each other, its truly fascinating that they all play by the same words

 

[Alocacoc]

Ok well acting unpredictable is quite an effective technique sometimes ie sending an email like the one I suggested above. If you say things like "I know what you're doing" it doesn't change what she's doing and she knows she has got to you - but I understand how sending things like that happens. The frustration and anger at what they are doing is immense. But let that out on here and try a few strategies.

Entitlement and materialism seems to be a common thing with alienating ex's. One thing I used to find helped at times (not always but sometimes) was flattery. Again teeth gritting time. They have huge egos.

So how about a slightly different version of the email

Hi. I'm just wondering how xxxxx is doing. I know you're a great Mum and you two will be having good times and doing fun girl things. I do miss her very much and hope she can see me again soon. If there are any issues I would like to work with you to resolve them. I don't think it's good for her to lose all contact with a parent - it can affect them at this age and for the future - and would really like to try and sort something out."

Acting unpredictable is just that - acting. To try and achieve something. Your ex has all the power at the moment. It does no harm to send a message like that. She may think about it. It means swallowing pride a bit. Now I know you'll say she'll know it's not your normal kind of message but that's the acting unpredictable bit. Confuse the enemy.

By being yourself there is a kind of dynamic there between you and she knows how to push your buttons.

Im going to back off for a fortnight and look at this advice thanks