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FHDRA today - not good

Hobnob

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So had my remote FHDRA today. It was scheduled for 90 minutes starting at 10am. Judge was 15 minutes late with no apologies or reason given. Cafcass were not present and the judge said "it was a shame" The hearing ended a few minutes before 11am as the judge had another hearing at 11. So my 90 minute hearing was less than half of that.

I had made allegations of parental alienation and manipulation by the mother on my C100 application. Judge asked me to substantiate this. When I tried to offer my reasonings she stopped me and told me not to go over the past and look to the future. When I tried yet again to explain she stopped me a second time and said I was still going over the past. She then began to tell me that it could just be that the children genuinely don't want contact with me and I have to understand the difficulty they are going through.

She then asked me what exactly I wanted from the hearing so I informed her that I wanted an interim order as detailed in my position statement and that I had also detailed the final CAO arrangements in the same position statement. She hadn't read my position statement at this point and must have brought them up on her PC, she briefly commented that mine was formal and lengthy and my ex's was informal and short when she quickly looked at it.
I then recited exactly what I wanted from the CAO which she noted down and then commented that it was very detailed.

She then asked my ex what her thoughts were and said "I know that you will disagree with it" Ex refused, stating she had already agreed dates with me (on her terms of course) 🙄

She then asked ex what her thoughts were on the current situation and there was lies and inaccuracies in most of it. After she finished judge asked me to respond and again stopped me saying you are going over the past again, how I was supposed to reply to allegations and untruths when constantly being prevented by the judge from doing so was very perplexing and to be honest confusing. I made the judge aware that I had tried on numerous occasions to co-parent including the use of a co-parenting app and this was refused at every stage. The judge then asked what a co-parenting app was!!!! When I explained she then asked the ex if she had considered the use of one. This then unleashed the hell knows no fury like a woman scorned. My ex went crazy and started saying how I'd coercively controlled her for 20 years and she'd thought she'd escaped and that I would be using the parenting app to spy on her and control her, incredibly the judge said she would not order the use of an app and that we should continue to communicate via email, ex then stated my email contact was harassment. Judge agreed and told me to keep emails and content to a minimum. She did not speak to my ex about the blatant allegations and absolute hostility toward me.

Judge agreed with ex that me waiting 6 weeks for summer holiday dates was acceptable and that I had to also consider ex had to make arrangements hence the delays and that I should be mindful of this.

Judge had absolutely no interest that my children had expressed wishes to spend more time with me, she also stopped me yet again when I tried to correct an inaccurate claim that one of my daughters didn't want to come with me on one of the days, I put forward that this was because mum had already planned other activities for that day and it was putting my daughter in the middle. Judge said I was going over the past again and to stop.

The judge completely refused my application for interim contact and refused the children spending time with me where I live as my accommodation isn't suitable. She also stated that my application for a shared care order held no merit as my reasons for applying (me wanting the children to see us both as equal parents and also to minimise future court applications, for example to take them out of the UK) was not a good enough reason and that the court would deny this. Ex also stated that she was the primary and sole caregiver and that a change in the children's circumstances wasn't in their best interest. I reiterated that I wasn't looking at a transfer of residence and that I was simply trying to create a CAO that was workable by both of us. Judge dismissed...

Judge asked if we both agree that a Cafcass child impact assessment would be suitable, we both acknowledged this would be in the best interests of the children however ex dropped in that she feels they need to be heard about how they struggle with their relationship with me.

Judge then cut the hearing short, stating that we should be both behave like adults and after taking time to reflect should send a nice email to each other about how we are going to move forward??? This is despite the fact the ex alleged my emails were harassment and the judge agreed.

Judge then said she would order a Cafcass child impact assessment, Cafcass lead mediation and would schedule a directions and dispute resolution hearing. No time frames given and I am now to continue my contact as determined by the mother.

In summary; my experience thus far of the family law court is one of absolute disbelief, complete bias, zero impartiality and a total lack of professionalism.

I have questions but needed to get that off my chest. Apologies for the length of the post.
 
I am sorry that didn't go well. It sounds like a bit of a flakey judge and biased towards the Mother. However this can be why it can be useful to be represented at the first hearing, because the Judge takes more notice of a professional and it's less personal. The fact that you both made allegations against each other probably led to her referring on to Cafcass. If it's any consolation, you are unlikely to get the same Judge twice! Judicial continuity is very rare.

It sounds like she is labelling it as conflict between parents, as both are accusing each other, and I think that is what Cafcass Child Impact Assessment looks at. I've looked it up and put the link below. I think from now on "jump through hoops" don't mention parental alienation, and just repeat the mantra "I just want my children to have happy loving relationships with both parents". I am gobsmacked she wouldn't order any interim arrangements though. If you find your ex is not allowing you to see the kids between now and the next hearing, then you could email the court and tell them that and ask for a directions hearing.

I've also had that pathetic "send each other a nice email" thing - which is a joke! My ex ignored it completely after the hearing.

 
Hey Hobnob, I'm truly sorry for you. I know you will have thought very carefully about how to conduct yourself and present your reasoning today and it now feels it was totally worthless. What makes this sense of worthlessness hard to bear is that it wasn't being in court about a 3td party matter....it was about your flesh and blood.

What the hell was the point of addressing the judge when you are cut short everytime? Without context, i.e. the past, how can you inform someone of the future? It's deeply frustrating and deeply unfair (solely, it appears, to Dads), that this conduct takes place in family court. But it does, regularly.

I've had my own particular experience of this in one of the 9 times I've so far 'been there'. Before inviting any side to speak the (female) DJ stated her thoughts, that of the Mother's wishes. Then she invited each side to speak: I knew before saying a word that what I wished to say was futile. But I did my best, and so have you today.

That experience was 15 months ago and Court no.5 appearance. A small consolation is that, ime, and with time, you should be able to review today as being the "ebb and flow" of these awful matters. By that I mean.....some you lose (ebb) and some you win (flow), it doesn't help, I know, but context is important, ok? The battle may have not gone your way but the war isn't over. Horrible terminology but that's what it sadly is.

SS.
 
I think it sounds like, in this case, remote hearings are not helpful. On the other hand if it was a face to face hearing and neither party has a lawyer something similar would have happened. If you both have lawyers, and it's a face to face hearing, there would be an hour before the hearing, for negotiations. Both lawyers and a cafcass officer would try and broker an agreement between parents or at least try and narrow the issues. After that you go before the Judge and it's the cafcass officer who usually recommends what should go in an interim order, having got the measure of both of you. It seems no cafcass are at these remote hearings. That could be a plus point, if you had a lawyer as the lawyer would speak for you to the Judge. I would definitely recommend having someone represent you at the next hearing. You don't have to speak at all then (well maybe the odd brief answer directed at you). And someone else will put your case so it doesn't seem so personal. Judge sounded biased though as well as flakey.
 
Thanks for the reply guys.

I have a couple of questions please. The ex told the judge she had been recording my calls and also filming the kids whilst they were on calls with me, besides the fact this must have made the kids incredibly uncomfortable are there any legal implications to this? Obviously I was unaware this was happening.

Secondly my ex is now going to have free reign and being even more obstructive as the judge said that any contact will be decided by her. As it stands I have nothing at all, not even an interim order. If she does behave as I suspect can I take her back to court?

I'm awaiting a free consultation with a barrister but in the mean time I could do with some pointers as I'm currently at a loss.

Thanks in advance
 
Recordings are inadmissible in court without your permission she really shouldn't be doing it.

You may be best to wait the barrister discussion.

Reading the above I think you need to step back a bit. I understand the frustration but you kind of have to accept the process isn't entirely logical / factual and continuity can't be gautanteed.

With cafcass getting involved you should be able to get your side across better. They will speak in detail and also speak with school etc as needed. If your ex is telling tales it will become apparent. Once cafcass are comfortable there's no safety issues for the kids the focus will be on working with Mom to set something up I'd expect. From what I experienced it seems a lot of.what cafcass actually do is work with the Mom's to try and .are them be reasonable to avoid a lengthy court case.

You just need to concentrate on the facts and only raise more serious concerns and to the extent you do make sure you can back it up. You need to come across as the credible one. As an aside when I went through cafcass it became clear my ex was lying and it was mentioned in the report but there's no consequences (or not at least in my case). It's worth bearing in mind.

The analogy I'd use is we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. When it comes to child matters I think we're seen as guilty (both parents) for not being able to resolve our own adult conflict. As the non resident parent you are more guilty though and face a hard up hill struggle.

What's the current arrangements (or what where they before this kicked off) and what are you looking for ideally.
 
It will be interesting to see what the barrister says as some of the stuff you mention just doesn't seem right. Sounds like you got a bad judge and hopefully any future ones will be better. But that's why you need the representation if possible as they can cut through the bullshit and hold court to account.
 
It will be interesting to see what the barrister says as some of the stuff you mention just doesn't seem right. Sounds like you got a bad judge and hopefully any future ones will be better. But that's why you need the representation if possible as they can cut through the bullshit and hold court to account.
Take this advice and come back here. It's not easy to do but if you can, try and do the following: think that yesterday was yesterday and today, tomorrow, next week is better....it will be. I have a mountain of reports in my own circumstances. I found a while ago that I read them and it's really hard territory, but the day after, rather than dwell and micro analyse.....move on. You will be stronger for it.

SS.
 
It will be interesting to see what the barrister says as some of the stuff you mention just doesn't seem right. Sounds like you got a bad judge and hopefully any future ones will be better. But that's why you need the representation if possible as they can cut through the bullshit and hold court to account.
Funnily enough I've just come off a call with a barrister and he said there was definitely something wrong with the hearing, almost as though it's been done in the wrong order. He was bemused when I said I didn't know when the next hearing was as the judge didn't put a timescale on it. I'm not dwelling but the more I think about what happened the stranger it is
 
Recordings are inadmissible in court without your permission she really shouldn't be doing it.

You may be best to wait the barrister discussion.

Reading the above I think you need to step back a bit. I understand the frustration but you kind of have to accept the process isn't entirely logical / factual and continuity can't be gautanteed.

With cafcass getting involved you should be able to get your side across better. They will speak in detail and also speak with school etc as needed. If your ex is telling tales it will become apparent. Once cafcass are comfortable there's no safety issues for the kids the focus will be on working with Mom to set something up I'd expect. From what I experienced it seems a lot of.what cafcass actually do is work with the Mom's to try and .are them be reasonable to avoid a lengthy court case.

You just need to concentrate on the facts and only raise more serious concerns and to the extent you do make sure you can back it up. You need to come across as the credible one. As an aside when I went through cafcass it became clear my ex was lying and it was mentioned in the report but there's no consequences (or not at least in my case). It's worth bearing in mind.

The analogy I'd use is we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. When it comes to child matters I think we're seen as guilty (both parents) for not being able to resolve our own adult conflict. As the non resident parent you are more guilty though and face a hard up hill struggle.

What's the current arrangements (or what where they before this kicked off) and what are you looking for ideally.
There really is no current arrangements as ex is basically dictating, when/how/where I can have contact. The only thing she has ever loosely agreed to is twice weekly calls which are pointless as the kids don't speak to me and she has now taken to moving them with a few minutes notice 🙄

I requested a shared care order that was very detailed, judge said it was too long, but basically I asked for 1 weekend a month, 4 weeks in summer holidays, alternate weeks during other holidays. Alternate Xmas and birthdays etc. It was very comprehensive to try to minimise returns to court.
 
Don't despair.

FHDRA is the first step of many. As someone said upthread, step back and have a couple of days break, otherwise you will mentally fatigue yourself.

You have to play the family court game and demonstrate that you are the measured and consistent co-parent, even in the face of accusations, bullying and harassment. It's crap, but that's how it works, almost like trial by fire.

I don't know what you detailed in the CAO, but a danger of having a long list is that the other party can claim that you are controlling and that it is unworkable.

Please take care.
 
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So what's the advice of the barrister
He just said for now do what the judge asks, if you don't you'll be facing the wrath 🙄 Other than that he said he couldn't help until I have a hearing date, something I'm finding to be the case with barristers
 
Don't despair.

FHDRA is the first step of many. As someone said upthread, step back and have a couple of days break, otherwise you will mentally fatigue yourself.

You have to play the family court game and demonstrate that you are the measured and consistent co-parent, even in the face of accusations, bullying and harassment. It's crap, but that's how it works, almost like trial by fire.

I don't know what you detailed in the CAO, but a danger of having a long list is that the other party can claim that you are controlling and that it is unworkable.

Please take care.
It's very hard to know what to do for the best. I'm not disagreeing with you but I have had advice to try to cover off every eventuality, particularly as I live in a different country to my children. I just find it incredible that the family court allows this cat and mouse game to be the norm 🙄
 
Basically the Judge decided not to make an interim order without further input from Cafcass - so maybe focus on that, regardless of what was actually said. The Judge seems to be treating it as conflict between parents with the kids caught in the middle. This, unfortunately, can be a reaction if the Dad alleges PA - the result being both parents are accusing the other. we discussed this before and you were aware of wishing you hadn't put that in the application. So just take it one step at a time. It takes a huge amount of patience and having to hide feelings of frustration due to the stress. If those feelings show in front of a Judge it will just pee them off. Judges are a strange breed. It's not like talking to a normal person and trying to convince them. Firstly they like absolute respect and deference! Calling them Sir and Ma'am. As it's a very formal procedure.

Secondly they don't like you speaking at all unless you're asked to (or put your hand up!). Thirdly they think they have seen and heard everything before and in more lazy types of Judges they just immediately think "warring ex couple - boring - give the kids to the Mother as it's a mess". Any arguments on either side get lost in the middle of the perceived warring or conflict between the parents. This is one of the hardest things to cope with. It is the ex who is warring and being hostile and doing all the bad things - so you feel justified in telling someone and expressing your upset and frustration - thinking they will understand and sympathise with you - and be fair. But Judges are not counsellors. They look at points of law in the best interests of the children . And while those interests are for significant time with both parents - they have criteria - will it be bad for the children if the parents are so hostile to each other? Yes - so hesitate, delay, and ask Cafcass to look into it. That seems to be the stance.

And yes it's wrong because they should know that Mothers do this and make it difficult for Dads to see children. But this is why the advice is always, be calm, jump through hoops. Say less rather than more. Keep to the mantra "I just want the children to have happy loving relationships with both parents". Win over the Judge with your politeness, calm, restrain and no retaliation.

The difficulty at the moment is, as mentioned before, claiming parental alienation (even when true) can make you look suspicious - especially as your ex then piped up you'd abused her for years! Because they don't know who is telling the truth. And in that scenario they won't make any interim orders.

It does sound shambolic though, as if it's been passed back to Cafcass because there were no lawyers there to push the interim order matter.

No you won't know when the next hearing is yet, court papers will be sent out with a date on. And before that they may want the Cafcass feedback. So yes you're stuck with waiting. You've been fobbed off by this Judge who just bypassed the whole situation wanting further information - because all these professionals are scared in case there is any truth in the idea that the Dad is an abuser (as your ex claimed). And veer on the side of caution. Hence she has passed the buck back to Cafcass.

As mentioned earlier, if you can't organise any actual time with the kids, within the next 3 weeks, then maybe ask the court for a directions hearing for an interim order stating the delay is causing harm to the children.

Meanwhile, you are going to have to try and politely get your ex to agree to some things (it's all more evidence at least). Grovel even. I have written polite amicable emails that have made me actually want to vomit writing them. But to try and calm things down so I could see my son.

So right now your ex will be furious there is a court case. Maybe let the dust settle for a few days and then send her an email politely asking to meet up with the children on x date for your next visit. The more polite requests she refused, the more ammunition you have for asking for a directions order.

It sounds really bad that the Judge basically just gave your ex more power to decide.

As for "too long" - how long was it? Two pages is fine for a position statement - three even.

Some tips for coping with the process though. Let all the anger and frustration out on here or to a counsellor. Don't take it out on court staff or Judges or let it show in front of them or they won't side with you. Curb the feelings and channel them. It's not easy.

That Judge should have been able to understand that you were desperate to see your kids and have a reasonable schedule set by the court and that of course is why you applied! Sadly there are some bad Judges. As for her saying "you won't get it" re shared care. Well she may be right or she may not be right. Hopefully you will get a different Judge next time who isn't so biased.

But the most important thing in this process is - keep the professionals onside. They are human as well and can warm to one party or the other.
 
There really is no current arrangements as ex is basically dictating, when/how/where I can have contact. The only thing she has ever loosely agreed to is twice weekly calls which are pointless as the kids don't speak to me and she has now taken to moving them with a few minutes notice 🙄

I requested a shared care order that was very detailed, judge said it was too long, but basically I asked for 1 weekend a month, 4 weeks in summer holidays, alternate weeks during other holidays. Alternate Xmas and birthdays etc. It was very comprehensive to try to minimise returns to court.
There was nothing wrong with that - I looked at it! That wasn't asking for it in the interim either. It was to update the position since your application, which you did. The Judge just seemed biased towards your ex and believed her crap. But I do think it sounds like she was a Judge who doesn't get PA as well. Any mention of that from you and they will see it as attacking the Mother. Yet if a Barrister mentions PA - that's acceptable. It's a bizarre situation.
 
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