Enforcing CAO when mother is coercively controlling child

[Jimi]

CAO in place for my daughter (14). Alternate weekends, midweek overnight, half holidays.

For the last few years mother has been disrupting. Making other arrangements across weekends, rewarding child when she doesn't come over, phoning child while she's with me to wind her up, offering to pick her up early. All textbook coercive control. Constantly escalating.

Child has now started saying she doesn't want to see me but can give no real reason for that. We always had a good relationship, weathered previous attempts by mother to alienate including proceedings where she tried to claim contact should be supervised because I get depression. I do, but am careful for it not to impact on my daughter.

Mother has personal friends who are social workers, Cafcass and local authority. Has previously used them to harass me and prop up her previous proceedings.

As such, am reluctant to try to enforce the CAO. I can't afford a solicitor. I also know courts and cafcass are really anti-father even when non-corrupt social workers report.

However, as such, am concerned for my kid. I don't know how far mother's coercive control goes. Daughter has told me they've come to blows before, and mother was physically and emotionally abusive when we were together.

If I walk away that may appease mother, but ultimately she will abuse our daughter, its her nature.

I'd be grateful for any advice.

 

[Resolute]

I find it impossible to imagine how hard your situation must be.

Only a tiny bit of advice from me. Trust your daughter and praise her at every opportunity. Each time she does anything with you, she is taking a brave step. Earlier this evening my daughter listened to me. I praised her for taking notice of what I said. She was confused. Ordinarily, she is only praised for doing what she is told. As an accessory, I share the world with my daughter. If I try to take the lead, I am by myself.

 

[Jimi]

Yeah, I hear that. I always try to praise her and be open and honest as possible without criticising unduly, getting frustrated with the situation or badmouthing her mum. Sort of makes it difficult to be a decent parent sometimes though. What do you do when you have to push the homework a bit, or monitor the social media or all the usual teenage stuff?

As you say, for our relationship situation its probably best to ignore, but as a decent dad, its really not. Especially when her mum is a narcissist and doesn't want the child doing well at school or engaging in anything outside of her control. This situation her mum creates is horrible. Just encourages our kid to play us off whenever she feels a bit of pressure.

Just taking it a day at a time right now with fingers crossed, but it is rough. Thanks for the advice though, its appreciated.

 

[Resolute]

There is not a right answer to this stuff. Everything I look at is in part nonsense. My situation is so warped that standard advice will not work. All the same, here are some videos that help guide my efforts. None of them are perfect.

 

[Jimi]

Thank you. Am going to come back to those later, am a bit fragile for more tonight. Distract time. Hope you and others here are doing OK. Thanks for this forum too.

 

[Resolute]

Thank you. Am going to come back to those later, am a bit fragile for more tonight. Distract time. Hope you and others here are doing OK. Thanks for this forum too.

Look after yourself.

Anything else can wait.

 

[Ash]

Hi. I'm sorry to hear this, and it's very difficult when the child is 14. Ex's choose this kind of age to try this type of thing, knowing it's probably too late to get an order enforced, if it takes a year to get to a final hearing and by then the child is 15 and the courts might say "she's nearly 16 so can choose for herself". Which is frustrating to say the least, as they can only choose for themselves if they're not pressurised, coerced or fearful of consequences.

I agree with Resolute to trust your daughter. I was in a similar situation. There is no easy answer or decision and girls are different to boys. I was still getting fairly regular time up to the age of 15 and that's when my ex pulled the rug. 9 months later, my son jumped ship and moved in.

I'm not saying don't enforce, but the difficulty is your daughter's wishes would be heard, she will be pressurised and at that age she may become resentful at being involved in a court case for a year - when their friends and social life start becoming really important - and their image to others.
That is the rock and hard place. When your daughter says she doesn't want to come - how do you react? I'd try to be prepared for these things and act fairly laid back (which I know isn't natural) and say something like "you can always come here whenever you want and this is always your home and of course I want you here as much as possible but it's down to you." Now in some ways that might be seen as giving up and not fighting for them. On the other hand while it might show that you're not fighting for her, something will kick off in her if she knows she can only see you if she chooses to.

I don't know what to suggest really as every situation is different. I think boys tend to get angrier at that age and more independent.

 

[Ash]

The ruthlessness of an ex doing this at this age is not only to prevent you seeing your daughter but, typical alienation tactic, to make you react to your daughter saying she doesn't want to come, so your daughter sees you as the angry one or it creates a rift or resentment. Obviously you're going to be stressed and feel powerless and your ex knows this and hopes you'll show it in front of your daughter. I found the hardest thing was to act normal around the child when you're imploding. But I guess the difference is I did know he wanted to come and he was clear about that.

Next time she says to you she doesn't want to come - maybe just ask - why? And tell her she can talk to you about anything - and that's what you're there for because you're her Dad. Keep being the parent whatever she says. If she does stop coming it will probably hit her what's happened. That's when it's important that they know the door is always open and you're never angry with them.

 

[Peanut 21]

I do think it's different with daughters.
Absolutely alienation happens with sons as dad's on here can attest.
But mums know how to manipulate their daughters to be their friend or say things like "men are stupid".
Boys will start to realise dad will just get some of the stuff they're going through and/or possibly be into similar stuff like sports and computers. And as Ash said, they get angry if their mums try to boss them about.
I feel your concerns @Jimi
Every time you see your daughter just let her know you'll always be there for her day or night. Be the emotionally stable parent who doesn't pressurise her.
Sadly I believe it's not until kids are a lot older and have some life experience that they able to stand back and see what's happened to them. That's when they may then reject the alienater.

I think a big frustration when PA happens is that other people don't understand it. They can't understand why an ex from, in some cases, years ago haven't moved on.

 

[Ash]

I've been thinking about this - if you think your daughter is actually alienated (which my son was at one time but wasn't by this age) and is saying she doesn't want to come - then it could be worth enforcing the order. Something might be spotted when your daughter is talked to. Even if it ends up being less time than before, the important thing is to keep seeing her and keep the relationship going. Or - applying to vary possibly for daughter to live with you on a near 50/50 basis - that would scare the ex.

 

[Ash]

I think it was Karen Woodall said the most likely ages to be alienated are between 8 and 14 (ie the most hormonal years) - 14 I definitely did find a bit iffy. By 15 my son was different. If you can keep her coming till she is 15 she may start to feel more in control of her own life. The difficulty with applying to court though is, you can almost guarantee the ex will stop her coming while the court process is going on.

When did you last see your daughter? Maybe for the moment, you could suggest the odd thing like giving her a lift somewhere or meeting her for a coffee. It took a lot of courage for my son but by 15 he was lying to his Mother and arranging to meet me without her knowing.

 

[Jimi]

Not entirely alienated yet, but her mum's been actively trying to for years. Previous proceedings when she got shared residence removed with corrupt support from a cafcass friend of hers.

Also, false allegations, claimed I threatened her when I tried to see my daughter after she had stopped her coming over for two months. I knew she'd lie so I recorded the whole thing, which was her answering the door then telling me I couldn't see the child and me telling her there's a contact order, then leaving. Next thing I know I get a call from the police saying she claimed I threatened her. I explained it, told them they could hear the recording and then suddenly there's no pressing of charges.

She's a nasty piece of work, horrible control freak, abusive when we were together. Which is why I have so many concerns around her coercive control now, not just the parental alienation, but her emotional abuse, which will magnify if I am edged out of my daughter's life.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I've asked my daughter why she isn't seeing me and she says she doesn't know or can't give any reason. I've said she can come over whenever, but the fact is that everyone is colluding to pressure her and remove me from her life. A bunch of misandrists essentially stealing a father from a child and vice versa. The only thing they safeguard is their own disgusting spite.

 

[Jimi]

There is not a right answer to this stuff. Everything I look at is in part nonsense. My situation is so warped that standard advice will not work. All the same, here are some videos that help guide my efforts. None of them are perfect.

Thanks for these. Good advice. Have seen lots of them before when I was trying to work through my older child being alienated. Problem is that when it comes down to it you can do everything "right" but if resident mum is dead set on screwing up their own kid, nobody will stop them. Not society, not school, not children's services and certainly not cafcass or the courts.

Disposable dads. Its probably best just to come to terms with that.

 

[Ash]

Not entirely alienated yet, but her mum's been actively trying to for years. Previous proceedings when she got shared residence removed with corrupt support from a cafcass friend of hers.

Also, false allegations, claimed I threatened her when I tried to see my daughter after she had stopped her coming over for two months. I knew she'd lie so I recorded the whole thing, which was her answering the door then telling me I couldn't see the child and me telling her there's a contact order, then leaving. Next thing I know I get a call from the police saying she claimed I threatened her. I explained it, told them they could hear the recording and then suddenly there's no pressing of charges.

She's a nasty piece of work, horrible control freak, abusive when we were together. Which is why I have so many concerns around her coercive control now, not just the parental alienation, but her emotional abuse, which will magnify if I am edged out of my daughter's life.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I've asked my daughter why she isn't seeing me and she says she doesn't know or can't give any reason. I've said she can come over whenever, but the fact is that everyone is colluding to pressure her and remove me from her life. A bunch of misandrists essentially stealing a father from a child and vice versa. The only thing they safeguard is their own disgusting spite.

She will hear that and remember it even if she can't do anything about it right now. When they say "I don't know" it means "I can't say" because she's protecting herself from ex's wrath. But she will know now that she can come if she wants.

These Mothers take advantage of the system at this age particularly. My ex started as soon as my son started secondary school, chipping away at things. They know that the negativity about you they hear from ex, is just ex, and not true - but they still fear ex's disapproval so are trying to negotiate a path.

What do you think you'll do? Try to enforce or see how it plays out. Maybe suggest to her she meets you in town one day or something?

 

[Jimi]

It seems the child's already alienated. It's come to light that mother's been working on her more intensely than I thought and her coercive control is designed to repeat my other daughter's alienation, just for spite. Looking back, she's obviously been planning it for a while. Being as she has a co-conspirator working in cafcass, trying to enforce will be even more impossible than it already is for most fathers.

So looks like its done. All there is now is to wait for her to start physically abusing our child, which she is bound to do once I'm at arms length. Then point social services at the situation.