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Confused as to what to do with toxic ex and my daughter!

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Dad_headache

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Last night I had a huge argument with my e-wife over my daughter. I probably hadn’t had more than a few conversations to my ex wife in almost 9 years prior to this, my arrangement to see my daughter had been abided by civilly and there had been no need to speak. She had also been emotionally abusive and controlling toward the end of our marriage.

I really don’t have anyone to turn to or ask advice so I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill but after the argument finished last night (the highlight of which was her partner threatening to beat me up) I realised the whole thing had been on speaker phone with my daughter present who is 9.

I see my daughter 2 days a week. She used to have sleepovers when she was younger but as she grew she became very difficult and would wake up or not settle and start crying hysterically for her mum. (she sleeps in her mums bed now and always has so that might be some contributing factor).

Anyway, everything was going smoothly until around 1 year ago. My daughter had put on a considerable amount of weight and I approached my exwife about it. At this time my ex wife was still able to talk to me in a relatively civil manner and she admitted that it was her fault, she had been giving into my daughters demands for sweets and such and she would make some changes to get her back into a healthy regime.

Every now and then my daughter has a kind of heart to heart / informational / emotional dump on me. Its often quite innocent stuff that she wants to ask or tell me but its of a different tone to a normal conversation.

Part way through last year these dumps became quite concerning. She would say “mummy and (partner) are always arguing” “(partner) shouted at me for no reason”. “mummy says she has had enough and is leaving (partner) and we will move out”. “mummy says she cant afford a pension” “will mommy run out of money one day”.

And worryingly an ongoing thing she is often saying is “mommy told me not to tell you”. “mummy told me not to tell you but secrets are wrong and I cant hold it in”.

Lately thought these discussions have ceased. So I am wondering if her mother has really put big pressure on her not to tell me things.

There were also various other issues with my daughter having confidence to go to new places and try new things. I had planned a trip to London for example. And my daughter told me she would love to go, so I book tickets and plan the day, then the day before when I come to pick her up her mum tells me she doesn’t want to go. Later when its me and my daughter alone I ask her why she changed her mind and she said that mummy told her the train carriages are really busy. The same thing happened with a trip to Go Ape. My daughter was all for it, then the day we were due to go she starts crying with many other trips and days out. Her mother says things and it scares off my daughter.

Mid way through last year a very odd situation occurred – my daughter had started crying when she was being dropped off for school. This got worse and she started crying when I came to pick her up. I believe it was separation anxiety from being apart from her mother. However, one morning my daughter was hysterical being dropped for school and she had to be taken to the head masters office. My daughter then released a string of odd stories blaming me for her crying. Saying things like that I had made her pick up broken glass one day (I mean this never happened or anything like it) and that I had refused to let her stay for a sleepover and some other random things. It was enough for the school to call my ex wife. My ex wife called me and again, at this time she was civil and told me what happened – she was sympathetic and said she knows my daughter was not telling the truth because I am a good dad and she knows I wouldn’t do that etc. Neither of us could work out what the hell had occurred. I suggested I would pay for some counselling for my daughter but my exwife refused.

Fast forward to the end of last year and I meet a new girlfriend. Its been quite a new and exciting thing for my daughter – they get on really well. My girlfriend is quite a lot younger than my ex-wife so I guess my daughter can relate to her in a different way.

So, a few weeks ago I had to mention my daughters health to my ex wife again, all the weight she lost and more had been put back on over the last few months. My ex wifes response was a bit less civil this time, I had written a long letter to her about my concerns and the reasons why and emailed it. She just text back “being taken care of my end” or something like that. Followed up with a few jabs about how I had taken her to eat fast food recently.

The build up to the big argument happened last week, when my new girlfriend had mentioned she was going to visit a friend. We had planned to take my daughter up there for a day as we recently had taken her out near there to the zoo for a day and she had loved it. She was really excited and when she found out that I was going to spend the night up there she even suggested she might be interested in doing the same. I said I would have to ask mummy and I said that she needed to be sure she wanted to do it as there would be no way I could bring her home if she started crying for mummy in the night. She said she wouldn’t.

So, I drop her back and the send my ex wife a message later advising I would like to take my daughter over night to stay in a nice house, she would have her own room and plenty of space etc. The response I got back was quite shocking. I was berated for even thinking such as thing. Told it would be really irresponsible and basically abusive towards me.

I advised that I am the father of our child and have just as much rights to my daughter staying with me. And her response was to tell me that my daughter didn’t want to go anyway. And that my daughter only told me she wanted to go because she was scared I would shout at her if she didn’t. Believe me, this is not true and my daughter knows it – I think I only ever shouted at her once in her life – I am as laid back as its possible to be. So, the fact that my daughter was lying to her mum deeply concerned me.

Anyway, this unfortunately led to an exchange of nasty messages. My ex wife suddenly a very different person from a couple months ago. Itching for an argument and provoking me all the tools in her arsenal. I was exasperated by my daughter saying she was scared of me and her mum then had lots of fuel to call me a terrible parent etc that my daughter was scared of me etc, which she knows damn well isn’t true. Anyway, this died down after a while. But my ex wife told my daughter to tell me that I wasn’t allowed to come to her front door any more as she “didn’t want to see my face”. I only discovered this the next time I came to drop my daughter off. My daughter wouldn’t let me go to the door!

So, yesterday I pick my daughter up as normal. We go trampolining, I take her to visit my her cousin and my parents and she plays lots of games and has a whale of a time. Unfortunately she got shouted at for being naughty by my dad who is an ex teacher with a very loud voice - she is probably exhausted as her cousin is full on – she had a few tears but was fine by the time I took her back.

Driving home nasty messages start pinging through on my phone. “your daughter is in teers yet again when you drop her off” “she wants to start coming home earlier” “she doesn’t want to spend this long with you” etc.

I stop the car and message back that she is just exhausted and is having a wobble and all will be fine tomorrow. The messages continue so I decide to pick up the phone in the car and ring her.

I want to explain that my daughter is just tired and that my ex wife is not getting the full picture – that my daughter complains when it is time to go home. She is happy to stay with me as long as she can. The phone rings and I start trying to talk. I just get barraged with a ton of abuse. She will not listen to a word I say. And is a completely different person to whom I was discussing things with a couple months ago. The level of hate and anger is shocking to me.

I try and explain that our daughter tells us each a different story because she is just trying to please whatever parent she is with. Her response is to grab our daughter and put her on the phone, clearly full of tears my daughter says “I want to come back earlier from now on”. I say the my ex that of course she is going to say that when you put her under pressure. I call my wife an idiot. There is then suddenly a new voice on the line. “don’t you call her an idiot, you drive back here right now im going to come outside and kick your head in.. come back right now and lets have it etc.” These threats continue for a short while, Then my ex comes back on the phone “you need to listen to your daughter – shes telling you what she wants” etc. I realise I am never going to get anything but abuse and threats so hang up. Now, the day after I am wondering what to do. Is there any legal avenue I could take. Or ?

I know this is a book but I wanted to get as much context down as I could.

Anybody, who had read all this and responds probably deserves a medal! But anyone who does – It is very much greatly appreciated.
 
So, the fact that my daughter was lying to her mum deeply concerned me.
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The level of hate and anger is shocking to me.
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Hello and welcome. Really sorry to hear all this is happening. I think it's significant your ex turned nasty when you started seeing your new gf. It's very common. Even if you've been split up for years and she's with someone else. I think it's not just about another woman being involved with her child, but about feeling threatened that you're a family as such.

It does also sound like your daughter is being pressured by the Ex and has no option but to say what she's told. The ex's partner sounds very violent.

A few questions:

1) How long have you been separated?
2) How long since overnights stopped?
3) Could your daughter have her own room at your place?
4) How often do you normally see your daughter? One day a week at week-ends? It sounds like you take her to and from school?

Yes it is possible to apply for a Child Arrangements order, and as part of the process, negotiations can also have some agreements incorporated - about communication, and not saying anything negative about the other parent etc. The main thing it would do is give you a specific schedule of time so you don't need to ask your ex's permission to take daughter somewhere for a day out when it's her week-end with you. Having said that she can still try and pressurise your daughter to refuse to do things. But it's easier to manage when your daughter spends more time with you and you can reassure her and she'll learn to handle some of these situations with more confidence, knowing she will see you regularly.

What you describe about her telling you things and offloading sounds very typical - my son used to do this. As they get older they clam up more, especially if pressurised, but also when they start to realise you have no power, and they're trying to work their world out. You can't use things she has told you as it'll just be classed as hearsay - ie no evidence of any trouble at the ex's house.

But it does sound like you need something resolving ongoing - and well before your daughter starts secondary school. The concerning thing is your ex can get your daughter to refuse to see you. So I would try and get a good court order in place before she is 11. (Ideally before she is 10). Once she gets to that age, her "wishes and feelings" will be taken much more seriously, and of course she will be coached to say certain things. At the moment that wouldn't be the case - it's the child's right to have regular and significant time with both parents.

Before you can do that you're expected to try mediation to try and resolve things and reach agreements. It's unlikely to work but there's a legal requirement to at least have had a MIAM (Mediation, Information and Assessment meeting) - which is the first session you go to on your own and explain the situation to the mediator and they give you info about mediation. They then invite the ex to the next session. If she doesn't want to attend, or messes about delaying dates to attend, then you get signed off, and are given a sign off form which you need if you apply to court. The sign off form lasts four months. So at any time in that four months, you can apply to court, but after that you'd need to have another MIAM. It's usual to apply straight away though as the chances are a) mediation won't work and b) it's fairly easy for your ex to find out that if someone starts mediation, it's with a view to applying to court (it's all over the internet and Mum's sites etc) and she may decide to get in first and apply, and then you're on a backfoot.

So we usually advice having the C100 application form filled out before you even start the mediation. Then when signed off you can send it in straight away.

So it sounds to me like dynamics have changed. Child Arrangements have been reasonably amicable (except your ex controls everything and all on her terms) but you both now have new partners and that can subtly affect how you deal with each other sometimes. Plus her partner sounds an aggressive type.

It's unfortunate your daughter heard the row, but don't worry about that too much - she probably knows there are issues. It was wrong of your ex to bring her to the phone and get her to say that, because that is putting her in the middle. She will have strong loyalty to both parents. And that's when it's slightly complex. You're right she might just say some things to please her Mum and keep her onside. Other things - it may not be her at all - it's more likely to be your ex saying she doesn't want to do xyz and then telling your daughter to repeat it. Good children do what their parent tells them but it's inappropriate when it's rejecting the other parent.

What should be happening is things decided between you and the ex and both of you explaining to your daughter what is agreed - to keep her out of the middle or having to "choose" who to please. But your ex isn't doing that so it makes it difficult for you to do that.

The court process can actually improve some of these things along the way and it's also possible to reach agreements along the way for a consent order - but that's usually only possible if both sides have a lawyer so agreements can be thrashed out (read - lawyers threatening each other to reach agreement) at court.

I think maybe the first thing to do is try and calm things down with your ex. She has too much power at the moment. Maybe write an apology for the argument and say you know you both have your daughter's best interests at heart and hope you can discuss further. (Even if the argument wasn't your fault). You do this to try and smooth things over a bit, to take the tension and pressure off your daughter or your ex and her partner may try and make her take sides.

We usually advise BIFF messages and emails (brief, informative, friendly, formal). Because from now on anything you put in writing can be used for or against you as evidence, which can help you get a better order (if all your communications are polite and reasonable and some of hers are hostile and unreasonable). Texts, emails etc can be used as evidence at a final hearing, to back up why you need the court order.

These type of messages also keep the personal out of it. You can detach from the person. It's as if writing to a business colleague. Or a client you don't want to lose even though you don't like them.

"Hi. I'm just writing to try and resolve things after our disagreement the other day. I was driving while all the text messages were coming in, and it probably wasn't the best time to stop and discuss anything over the phone. I know we both want the best for our daughter and we both love her. Suggest we have a chat in a few days time."

Or something like that. But from now on be aware that anything you say or put in writing, your ex is likely to show to your daughter or tell her - as a way of turning her against you - and that would hurt her. So be careful what you say. Eg if you addressed the topic of your daughter's weight in a message, your ex could say to your daughter "Your Dad thinks you're fat" - and hurt her feelings and make her resentful towards you.
 
Thank you very much for your detailed reply. It is very reassuring to know that obviously I’m not the only one going through / to have been through this type of scenario. It also makes me realise I’ve been so close to the problem that I’ve not really been focusing on the correct things. Your advice is very valuable and appreciated.

As for your questions:

1) How long have you been separated?
Since a few months after my daughter was born. She walked out and took my daughter because my business went bankrupt. She said I could no longer support a family so left. I have since built up to be more successful than I ever was though.

2) How long since overnights stopped?
A few years. I have tried periodically since, when I’ve been allowed but it always ends in hysterics.

3) Could your daughter have her own room at your place?
Yes. This is the plan.

4) How often do you normally see your daughter? One day a week at week-ends? It sounds like you take her to and from school?
I have her Wednesday evening after school, pick her up from school. Then I pick her up Saturday morning and drop her back Saturday night. She lives 40 minutes away and I currently do all the driving picking her up and dropping her back.
 
I will definitely action the points you suggest starting tomorrow. There is a family law firm local to me who offer me meditation.

I will send an apologetic message back also. You don’t think it’s worth noting in that message that I don’t appreciate being threatened with violence? In case the messages are needed for court?

Something like “I am just writing to try and resolve things … etc. … But I also feel I need to point out that I was shocked to be threatened with violence by (partner) and am worried about the effect of this behaviour occurring in front of my daughter “

Or is that just mud slinging? Provoking more argumentative texts.
 
Oh ok. Sorry. There is an update - the ex has asked to meet me in a pub with her and my daughter so my daughter can tell me herself what time she wants to come home from now on…
 
Something like “I am just writing to try and resolve things … etc. … But I also feel I need to point out that I was shocked to be threatened with violence by (partner) and am worried about the effect of this behaviour occurring in front of my daughter “
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That would just annoy her and not achieve much or even make things worse.

the ex has asked to meet me in a pub with her and my daughter so my daughter can tell me herself what time she wants to come home from now on…
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That's a set up - don't do it. If you agree to that then you're showing your daughter it's acceptable for her to be put in that position. Did she ask you this in writing?

If you haven't sent the initial apology then you could add to it to cover both situations:

Eg

""Hi. I was about to contact you to try and resolve things after our disagreement the other day. I was driving while all the text messages were coming in, and it probably wasn't the best time to stop and discuss anything over the phone. I know we both want the best for xxxxxx and we both love her. I was going to suggest you and I have a chat in a few days time.

I'm not in agreement with our daughter being put in the middle of our disagreement however - these are matters for parents to discuss and resolve so I don't think it's in her interests for me to meet you both in the pub on the basis you suggest. Indeed I think it's highly important that you and I try and resolve this between us to avoid any feelings of conflicted loyalty for xxxxxxxxxxx and so she can see that adults can sort things out.

Perhaps you could let me know when you're free for a chat, or we can chat by text maybe.

Best wishes, you"

I think you need to get the mediation started asap. You can do it yourself. Just google family mediators in the area, and phone round them and see which one can offer the quickest appointment. If the local solicitors does mediation as well then that is an option to use a mediator there. But don't go spending money on a solicitor to refer you for mediation (which is also a bit of a slow way to deal with it).
 
So Wednesday nights - is that just from school until later in the evening? No overnight?
 
Btw a 9 year old shouldn't be co sleeping with her Mother either.
 
Once you've had a MIAM you can then message the ex and ask her to discuss it with you with a mediator to try and resolve things. And then she'll hear from the mediator. When are you next due to see your daughter then? This Wednesday?
 
You're quite right of course, the ex's partner threatening you like that, in your daughter's hearing, is very harmful to her. I would make a diary note of the whole incident while you remember. For diary notes, I used to email them to myself. ie send myself an email called diary note. Then just briefly set out what happened as you described above. Write it being aware you might want to to show it to someone at some point. By that I mean don't let it turn into a long ranty ramble. But also don't go loading it with how distressed you are etc or that could sound fake.

Then make an email folder for the diary notes to go in. Even if you don't need it for evidence, these things can be a useful reminder of what happened when exactly. If you do need them for evidence, they are more authentic than typed in word because the email is date and time stamped.
 
As regards parenting history - you have a solid parenting history by the sound of it, almost since birth. So the court will know your daughter has a strong bond with you and you should get a decent order (better than you have now). However I would ask for it to be a shared care order. What used to be called joint residence. So the child "lives with" both parents, even if it's more time with the ex than you. The reason being, to curb some of your ex's unilaterally doing things - you're both more equal if it's "lives with both". Psychologically at least. It needs to be about a third of the time to be a "lives with both parents" order so you'd be wanting at least every other week-end and wednesday overnight plus half the holidays for that. Any less time than that it would need to be a "spends time with" order - the only difference is your ex then has a residency order and is the "parent with care" so can call the shots a bit more sometimes (but she would still have to follow the order).

Personally I think the more time you can get, the better. Because there's less chance of your daughter being manipulated to reject you in future, if she is with you for a decent amount of time. It's probably best to apply for 50/50 time. You might not get it because historically it hasn't been 50/50 but you could get near 50/50 maybe.

Don't mention any of this to the ex yet - keep your cards close to your chest.
 
You don't need a solicitor for the application either :-) There's a guide on here or we can help you. When you could do with a lawyer is for a hearing and negotiations pre hearing.
 
Other than the legal route, I do believe it is better to have counselling to both you, your ex and your daughter. a 9 year old girl is going through a rapid change, physically (puberty) and mentally. I am still amazed by how much my daughter changed between 8 and 10, especially her attitude towards me ( not a bad way but she realised she is a girl and I am a bloke and she wouldn't get close to me anymore). And your daughter probably realised the odd relationship between her parents. She need someone she can trust to speak freely of her mind and give her some good advise how to handle the situation. I assumed both you and your Ex are loving parents, so the only thing that is hurting your daughter is the odd relationship between the adults. My daughter went through a few sections of private counselling and I can see it really helped. Anyone needs something to release the pressure on them when things turn bad. A child is no different. You can win a family law case, but you might not be able to win the heart of a child. It is still not late to do it, as she is only 9.
 
Thanks again for all the information and support. This is all super interesting and I am picking up a lot of extremely useful knowledge from this thread.

At the moment she doesn’t stay Wednesday eve, I drop her back after dinner. I do not see her as much as I want to but week days / holidays is difficult due to work and as she won’t stay over the whole weekend is a challenge. So, I’m not sure how I’d manage to have her full weekends and half of the holidays. But when I move into my house I’m sure I can try for more.

I have sent the message to the ex as you mentioned. No reply as yet.

One thing about the court order - what options for retaliation has she got ? For instance we have an informal child maintenance agreement. I pay her a direct debit each week. Could she try and seek formal agreements for things like this to cause inconvenience.?

Also, what kind of things can I put in the court order? You mentioned pick up times and spending time together obviously, you also suggested the order could rule against parents bad mouthing one another. What other things can it contain? Just wondering what I would write as I presume all this will have to be put in the form . Thanks!
 
In the C100 form for child arrangement order, there is a specific order section where you tick it and then enclose the details in a separate paper of what you want. I am not sure if you can put in the C100 form for things as detailed as of picking up time, but when you have a hearing scheduled, you will have the chance to draw a position statement ( we all called it PS here) in which you can list all the details you want.
 
Ok. Thank you.

I agree counselling would be a good idea. But at the moment feel the only way I could do this would be during my time with my daughter without consent of the mother which I’m not sure is the best idea.

I will have a look at the guides a bit later today.
 
Update: Had a response from the ex wife. She doesn’t appear to have listened to the point about not putting our daughter in the middle of it. She is entirely ignorant or unconcerned about the fact that coaching / pressuring my daughter on what to say or to take sides (whether she is trying consciously or it’s entirely subconsciously) is not acceptable and potentially damaging to my daughters mental health.

I did also explain that on the phone during the argument. But she just can’t grasp it. Frustrating!

Apart from this fact it is a step forward in being friendly and seeming reasonable.

The message:

“Hi x,
The point to me recommending us meeting with (Daughter) together was to hear what she wants to happen regarding the time she actually comes home . Meeting in a controlled environment/puplic space where people can keep their emotions civil ,so her wishes are heard and we both listen to what she has to say ,then there would of been no grey area with this.
I'm not into creating a scene publicly and especially with my daughter being present.
What (daughter) wants, im happy with. As I said in my previous message, she will see you Wednesday, and I think it's best just you and (daughter) have time together to chat and make a decision, which she's happy with.
If we then need to communicate further on this issue, then obviously, we will. After what happened on Saturday, tensions are running high, and best to leave verbal communication till next week (if any is needed) , unless it vitality is important, you need to spk to me regarding daughter). Just confirm what decisions are made on wednesday. Hopefully, then this will be resolved for (daughter) and there is no need for further discussion on this matter.
Best wishes, (ex) “
 
ESU said:
In the C100 form for child arrangement order, there is a specific order section where you tick it and then enclose the details in a separate paper of what you want. I am not sure if you can put in the C100 form for things as detailed as of picking up time, but when you have a hearing scheduled, you will have the chance to draw a position statement ( we all called it PS here) in which you can list all the details you want.
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Specific issues is a different type of order but the same form is used.
 
Dad_headache said:
Update: Had a response from the ex wife. She doesn’t appear to have listened to the point about not putting our daughter in the middle of it. She is entirely ignorant or unconcerned about the fact that coaching / pressuring my daughter on what to say or to take sides (whether she is trying consciously or it’s entirely subconsciously) is not acceptable and potentially damaging to my daughters mental health.

I did also explain that on the phone during the argument. But she just can’t grasp it. Frustrating!

Apart from this fact it is a step forward in being friendly and seeming reasonable.

The message:

“Hi x,
The point to me recommending us meeting with (Daughter) together was to hear what she wants to happen regarding the time she actually comes home . Meeting in a controlled environment/puplic space where people can keep their emotions civil ,so her wishes are heard and we both listen to what she has to say ,then there would of been no grey area with this.
I'm not into creating a scene publicly and especially with my daughter being present.
What (daughter) wants, im happy with. As I said in my previous message, she will see you Wednesday, and I think it's best just you and (daughter) have time together to chat and make a decision, which she's happy with.
If we then need to communicate further on this issue, then obviously, we will. After what happened on Saturday, tensions are running high, and best to leave verbal communication till next week (if any is needed) , unless it vitality is important, you need to spk to me regarding daughter). Just confirm what decisions are made on wednesday. Hopefully, then this will be resolved for (daughter) and there is no need for further discussion on this matter.
Best wishes, (ex) “
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Not too bad. But you can guarantee your daughter will have been primed to say what time she wants to go back and she will have no choice whatsoever. If the ex said - be back by 7pm she is not going to flout that. What she might do is say "Mum says I have to be back by 7pm". And let you know it's not her choice.

Regarding ESU's suggestion of counselling - I think this kind of thing needs handling very very carefully because it can be abused by a parent with an agenda. In fact courts don't approve of any counselling being arranged for children unless it's court ordered.

It doesn't sound like Dad_headache has a problem with the relationship with his daughter anyway, but with his ex. But mediation before court is always an idea. I wouldn't include the child though.
 
Dad_headache said:
Thanks again for all the information and support. This is all super interesting and I am picking up a lot of extremely useful knowledge from this thread.

At the moment she doesn’t stay Wednesday eve, I drop her back after dinner. I do not see her as much as I want to but week days / holidays is difficult due to work and as she won’t stay over the whole weekend is a challenge. So, I’m not sure how I’d manage to have her full weekends and half of the holidays. But when I move into my house I’m sure I can try for more.

I have sent the message to the ex as you mentioned. No reply as yet.

One thing about the court order - what options for retaliation has she got ? For instance we have an informal child maintenance agreement. I pay her a direct debit each week. Could she try and seek formal agreements for things like this to cause inconvenience.?

Also, what kind of things can I put in the court order? You mentioned pick up times and spending time together obviously, you also suggested the order could rule against parents bad mouthing one another. What other things can it contain? Just wondering what I would write as I presume all this will have to be put in the form . Thanks!
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Ok so in an application you would explain the situation (there's sample wording in legal resources which I'll link). And at this stage you just set out what you want in an order quite simply and basically. Like "I therefore request the court makes a Child Arrangements order for my daughter to live with both her parents on an equal shared care basis as follows:

During term time:

With Father - every other week-end and wednesday overnight, with all collections and drop offs to and from school.
With Mother - at all other times during term time.

And half the school holidays with each parent.


So you go in high - you can always negotiate down later but if you don't ask for enough in the application it's virtually impossible to negotiate up later.

Before each hearing you have the opportunity to send a position statement which can give further details and you can ask about recitals in that.

Assuming there's no agreement for a consent order and it goes to a final hearing with the court determining things, you can submit a draft order with your final statement that includes everything you want in an order. Or you can just set it out in a statement.
 
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