Absurd Request For Undertakings

[Resolute]

Hi All,

I recently sent a message to my ex appealing to her "better nature." It was simple stuff about being more flexible around minor alterations to arrangements in service of child's best interests. Along with this I proposed building a positive co-parenting relationship to progress arrangements in line with shared understanding of wishes and feelings. I was advised that arrangements are "not about" the child and reminded that flexibility will be zero.

Following that I received a letter from solicitor. It starts with allegations which I can disprove and don't amount to a great deal. Moves on to misrepresenting our current order, social services take on our case, undertakings, previous proceedings... It concludes by asking me for undertakings and threatening court action if they are not made within a timeframe. Undertakings they request appear petty, e.g. not to ask for more time for me, never to mention proceedings to child, not to interfere with bedtime routine... But I would be giving her the rope to hang me with if I made them.

When they tried this stuff previously, I told them I was not minded to agree but that I would review formal drafts if produced all the same. Drafts have never materialised.

I could tear all of this apart, but it has never been of much use when I have previously. If I ask them to clarify and tidy up errors/sloppiness, they just act as though I am argumentative and unreasonable.

Is there any reason to do more than something like:

Dear XXX

Thanks for correspondence of xx/xx/xx.

Accounts presented on behalf of your client, and by you directly, are denied.

Yours sincerely...

Lots of the time I am indulgent and take a reassuring tone with my ex, but this does not seem worth my attention and effort.

I'd love to hear any experiences people have had of simple denial on stuff like this.

Thanks.

 

[Ash]

Yes I would normally say just ignore the solicitors letter. But if they have made some allegations then a brief response denying them would be good. I would keep it very short and simple - something like

"Thank you for your correspondence of x x and x. The allegations made within the correspondence are strongly denied. Yours sincerely".

However if there is a court order in place and you were seeking to discuss variation (and why shouldn't you) then that is clearly a no to negotiations! And they are seeing it as a pre-emptive move to applying to court again so have gone on the defensive. So you might want to add something like

"I am complying with the Child Arrangements order of x date but was simply seeking to discuss some possible changes. I take it your client does not wish to discuss the matter further".

Having that response that flexibility will be zero could be useful at some point! But that is probably why your ex is sending solicitors letters rather than replying herself, as her saying that in an email would be better evidence than a solicitors letter.

 

[Resolute]

"I am complying with the Child Arrangements order of x date but was simply seeking to discuss some possible changes. I take it your client does not wish to discuss the matter further".

He never responds on anything aside from his immediate agenda. Often he doesn't even respond on that. I am thinking of keeping thread of communication ongoing with ex. She is coming out with loads of nonsense that is plainly written by him, but I have been saving up the rope she gives me. Almost ready to use it now. He writes stuff for her thinking it will provoke me. I respond without focussing on the moronic bits. There are 4 or 5 threads I left fizzle out to be reignited when convenient. I'm looking forward to the one where I get to say "I was immensely disappointed to realise that you do not believe Child Arrangements are 'about' our child" . But she has given me a load of other gems as well.

Her response to my message appealing to her better nature failed to address any points. I'll probably send something listing those points much more simply and requesting that she gives them some attention.

 

[Ash]

Just be careful you don't get accused of harrassment! Is "he" her solicitor? It is tempting to point out what they've done but my experience is that usually backfires. Also the best advice I ever had from a Cafcass officer was "don't point score in communications". At the end of the day if she won't negotiate, she won't negotiate.

What kind of flexibility were you wanting? If she won't agree to flexibility, just do it anyway in certain areas. My ex was the same once I had a court order - she was so fuming about being tied down by it that there was no flexibility whatsoever - she would stick to it to the letter.

 

[Resolute]

Various levels of flexibility:

couple of requests for one night in addition to term time schedule during Xmas hols, one of them for a night I would have been dropping off just before bedtime and picking up after breakfast anyway;

switching handover location to train station (used multiple times already) to gain time and save walking for child;

some flexibility on handover time to fit with trains and allow fuller activities for child...

I was deliberately asking for minimal adjustment so as to show how unreasonable her approach is. Asked her to reflect as long as necessary, coined it all in terms of kid's interests and wishes.

He is her solicitor, NMO application was dismissed, I do not communicate outside of email (despite her best efforts), kid is begging for more time with me (of her and me, think this was part of trigger for solicitor letter).

"Also the best advice I ever had from a Cafcass officer was "don't point score in communications". At the end of the day if she won't negotiate, she won't negotiate."

Mine has steered the case away from CAFCASS so far, fought hard against their involvement, used back door methods to avoid S7 ordered in hearing. Good in a way, as it shows how flimsy her allegations against me are at base. You must have scored some points for the CAFCASS officer to offer the above advice.

 

[Ash]

Lol. Yes the Cafcass officer could see what my ex was like and was warning me to try and get the best outcome later by basically seeing - keep all your communications polite and civil, no point scoring or arguing. It was good advice as I was more careful with communication after that and had some great evidence for final hearing!

What you are asking for in regards of flexibility is just perfectly sensible stuff which presumably is not covered in the court order clearly? Is the handover location specified in the court order?

If she won't agree to flexibility over these things and it specifies handover location then you'd have to apply to vary really. I can see asking for an extra day wouldn't go down well!

 

[Resolute]

Order specifies handover location, but, there is no term-time/holiday schedule. "Time with" works like this:

School pick up on date X until 3.5 hrs later, same every alternate week "thereafter" (week 1);

School pick up on date Y until 51hrs later, same every alternate week "thereafter" (week 2).

Variations, including for holidays, to be agreed between the parties in writing.

Handovers to me during holidays at school times but at location usually used for handovers to her. (Sorry for edit, it froze)

 

[Resolute]

My final hearing was 1 day of her barrister using all his effort to ensure nothing was resolved. We were over time before arrangements came into the picture. Judge gave vague indications for barrister to bastardise in the order he wrote.

 

[Resolute]

Thinking about this now:

Dear XX XXXXX

Thanks for correspondence of XX/XX/XX.

The contents of your letter, including allegations made by your client, are denied.

Yours sincerely...

My reason is that the narrative in solicitors voice is packed with lies. He speaks about undertakings I have not made; refers to our order as an agreement, when it was contested...

P.s. I have reassured myself that ex is making her own bed. It was great to get formal notification that one of her biggest fears is our child coming to know of what my she has done. The undertakings would be by consent and cements absolution for mum. Perhaps the 100's of K spent have not delivered!!!!!!

 

[Ash]

Order specifies handover location, but, there is no term-time/holiday schedule. "Time with" works like this:

School pick up on date X until 3.5 hrs later, same every alternate week "thereafter" (week 1);

School pick up on date Y until 51hrs later, same every alternate week "thereafter" (week 2).

Variations, including for holidays, to be agreed between the parties in writing.

Handovers to me during holidays at school times but at location usually used for handovers to her. (Sorry for edit, it froze)

It does say variations within the order. The problem is, if one party won't agree then you can't vary. So yes you need evidence to show why this needs defining more. In a way it's a shame the location is in there at all. If it just said from x time to y time. Then the child is in your care from x time and the Mother just needs to make her available, at that time, and it's up to you what you do from there. Although with you having to travel then I guess a location needs mentioning to make it easier to collect. But that is a simple matter - location - that could easily be agreed unless she physically couldn't get a child somewhere.

 

[Ash]

My final hearing was 1 day of her barrister using all his effort to ensure nothing was resolved. We were over time before arrangements came into the picture. Judge gave vague indications for barrister to bastardise in the order he wrote.

Were you self repping then? If you had been represented, it should have been your side who wrote the order. It can be an idea to attach a draft order to the final statement too, with everything in you want and if some points aren't approved they can be amended on the draft and then it's done and just needs amending, printing out, approval that it's correct and sent for sealing. Even then, I had issues with the other side refusing to approve the wording!

 

[Resolute]

Were you self repping then? If you had been represented, it should have been your side who wrote the order. It can be an idea to attach a draft order to the final statement too, with everything in you want and if some points aren't approved they can be amended on the draft and then it's done and just needs amending, printing out, approval that it's correct and sent for sealing. Even then, I had issues with the other side refusing to approve the wording!

I have only ever self repped. Even if I was represented, her brief would have written the order. I was the respondent.

Judge saw my correspondence with his predecessors and refused to admit me into correspondence on the final order as a result.

 

[Resolute]

It does say variations within the order. The problem is, if one party won't agree then you can't vary. So yes you need evidence to show why this needs defining more. In a way it's a shame the location is in there at all. If it just said from x time to y time. Then the child is in your care from x time and the Mother just needs to make her available, at that time, and it's up to you what you do from there. Although with you having to travel then I guess a location needs mentioning to make it easier to collect. But that is a simple matter - location - that could easily be agreed unless she physically couldn't get a child somewhere.

Ex lives on the same road as train station. We walk 15 mins from station to handover location, ex then has to walk 10 mins home after handover.

Ex's barrister wrote into order that I cannot "enter, or pass by other means" road X between junction Y and junction Z. He did this because my interim orders had me in ex's house 2 days a week. It was difficult for her to drive home what a menace I am, when she was lapping up my cooking 2 days a week and giving me the run of her house.

 

[Ash]

. So she needs to keep up her stance that you're dangerous and not to come near her house so she won't vary the location. If she's that scared of you why does she want to be at a handover location and see you?! I don't think you'll get far with changing that arrangement with the trains being involved.

 

[Resolute]

. So she needs to keep up her stance that you're dangerous and not to come near her house so she won't vary the location. If she's that scared of you why does she want to be at a handover location and see you?! I don't think you'll get far with changing that arrangement with the trains being involved.

She has changed it in writing numerous times when it was convenient to her. I know she will never make a change I ask for and will want to give an impression she needs protection provided by the order, but the ship has sailed. It is only the child that loses out by her being stubborn.

Location variation would be to a public place covered by CCTV. I have to get off at that station anyway. Only reason I come onto her road is that I leave the train station. If we handed over at the station, I would cross platforms and head home. She asks me to stay at handover location until she is safely away with child, in fear I might try to intercept her - but she will not agree to me not even leaving the station.

 

[Resolute]

Deadline for my response to absurd letter from the solicitor is quite a while in the future. Today, my ex reattached the solicitor letter to email from her demanding my immediate agreement under threat of suspending my time with child indefinitely.

Pure bullying tactics. I am petrified of not seeing my little angel, but I do not think I can roll over. This is among other threats to go for non-mol.

WTF!

Not sure if I should just stand firm and continue with the plan, or write to her about her outrageous threat?

 

[Peanut 21]

Sounds like partners ex. Whenever he asks for extra time he gets "we've made plans" even with plenty of notice and most random of days. He's also had threatening letters from her solicitor in the early days demanding he doesn't say xyz to his own children. His ex has demanded he doesn't go to certain locations if she’s there. All whilst calling him controlling

 

[Ash]

Deadline for my response to absurd letter from the solicitor is quite a while in the future. Today, my ex reattached the solicitor letter to email from her demanding my immediate agreement under threat of suspending my time with child indefinitely.

Pure bullying tactics. I am petrified of not seeing my little angel, but I do not think I can roll over. This is among other threats to go for non-mol.

WTF!

Not sure if I should just stand firm and continue with the plan, or write to her about her outrageous threat?

This is very tricky. It sounds sensible, from now on, to not contact her directly. It suggests that if you want any variation you would have to do it via the courts.

So you don't want to be bulldozed into agreeing to something unreasonable, but neither do you want her witholding your daughter. So maybe for now, skirt around it to keep seeing your daughter. Maybe a reply like.

"I am sorry of requesting a variation on time has led to this kind of reaction, so I confirm I will not request such a thing directly again. There is a court order in place however and this needs to be followed by both parents."

Tbh I think you should apply for a variation - that was basically a threat - to stop you seeing your child if you didn't give in to a load of ridiculous demands. Having said that the court aren't going to be interested over a "minor" disagreement about a handover point - but the bigger picture is that you cannot have variation by agreement (as the evidence shows) and therefore there need to be defined times for holidays and other arrangements.

 

[Resolute]

This is very tricky. It sounds sensible, from now on, to not contact her directly. It suggests that if you want any variation you would have to do it via the courts.

So you don't want to be bulldozed into agreeing to something unreasonable, but neither do you want her witholding your daughter. So maybe for now, skirt around it to keep seeing your daughter. Maybe a reply like.

"I am sorry of requesting a variation on time has led to this kind of reaction, so I confirm I will not request such a thing directly again. There is a court order in place however and this needs to be followed by both parents."

Tbh I think you should apply for a variation - that was basically a threat - to stop you seeing your child if you didn't give in to a load of ridiculous demands. Having said that the court aren't going to be interested over a "minor" disagreement about a handover point - but the bigger picture is that you cannot have variation by agreement (as the evidence shows) and therefore there need to be defined times for holidays and other arrangements.

Today was on basis of something entirely different. She cancelled time with saying she would be "happy" to do "another time" with just a video call today. I did the video call then wrote to suggest tomorrow for the replacement she offered.

That was enough for the threat.

Her solicitor has repeatedly asked me to deal with her directly "to save on costs"

 

[Resolute]

Thanks Ash, I sent a separate message highlighting a few bits and pieces in a very neutral way. Today I was looking at adapting one of your ways of skirting around things when I received a non-threatening email offering solutions.

"Family Law Professionals" just like to get that red rag out and see if they can get us charging around brainlessly for a bit. It is torture knowing they also have the sword.