What next after an adverse fact finding hearing?

[mikeayo1891]

After some last minute scheming by the ex and their counsel to seek a postponement of my fact find on account of claims that her own solicitor failed to include the further allegations/evidence that she seeks to rely in the bundle, i managed to convince the judge that any delay further would not be in the best interest of the child as I havent seen him in 18 months and that the mother has form in always blaming her solicitors and deliberately causing delays. She is already on her 3rd solicitor now. The earliest possible date if the FFH was postponed would be in 6months if i'm lucky. The judge was in two minds to postpone as the counsel tried to convince him that the allegations/evidence that needed to be included were very serious ones that affected the safety of the child.

Just to avoid a postponement i offered to allow the ex to include these new allegations and evidence (that i hadnt seen before) in an amended bundle just before trial which was at my detriment. I was happy to defend myself as i had nothing to hide. Anything to avoid a postponement.

Ex made all manners of false allegations from stalking, harrassment, rape to threat to kill her and child, DV, attempts to stab child in the chest with knife etc. None of these allegations ever reported to the police, social services, GP etc for over 5yrs of us being in a relationship and 5yrs coparenting (a total of over 10yrs) until May 2023 when she stopped me seeing child cos i was in a new relationship. Then started making false reports to police. Saying she was reluctant to report in the past.

I was LIP and I think i managed to defend myself and show incoslnsistencies in her allegations. Like her texting in an amicable way the very next day that she claims that i hit her.

Anyway even though i am confident that her false allegations will be found put i am just preparing for the worst. Can anyone tell me what happens IF one loses fact find? What are my options? Can i appeal? Is it even advisable to appeal? If i dont appeal and just get on with it does that mean i cant see child again? What is the potential consequences of me losing the fact find in my child arrangement case and it being used as evidence in final hearing? Thanks

 

[mainstay92]

After some last minute scheming by the ex and their counsel to seek a postponement of my fact find on account of claims that her own solicitor failed to include the further allegations/evidence that she seeks to rely in the bundle, i managed to convince the judge that any delay further would not be in the best interest of the child as I havent seen him in 18 months and that the mother has form in always blaming her solicitors and deliberately causing delays. She is already on her 3rd solicitor now. The earliest possible date if the FFH was postponed would be in 6months if i'm lucky. The judge was in two minds to postpone as the counsel tried to convince him that the allegations/evidence that needed to be included were very serious ones that affected the safety of the child.

Just to avoid a postponement i offered to allow the ex to include these new allegations and evidence (that i hadnt seen before) in an amended bundle just before trial which was at my detriment. I was happy to defend myself as i had nothing to hide. Anything to avoid a postponement.

Ex made all manners of false allegations from stalking, harrassment, rape to threat to kill her and child, DV, attempts to stab child in the chest with knife etc. None of these allegations ever reported to the police, social services, GP etc for over 5yrs of us being in a relationship and 5yrs coparenting (a total of over 10yrs) until May 2023 when she stopped me seeing child cos i was in a new relationship. Then started making false reports to police. Saying she was reluctant to report in the past.

I was LIP and I think i managed to defend myself and show incoslnsistencies in her allegations. Like her texting in an amicable way the very next day that she claims that i hit her.

Anyway even though i am confident that her false allegations will be found put i am just preparing for the worst. Can anyone tell me what happens IF one loses fact find? What are my options? Can i appeal? Is it even advisable to appeal? If i dont appeal and just get on with it does that mean i cant see child again? What is the potential consequences of me losing the fact find in my child arrangement case and it being used as evidence in final hearing? Thanks

Hi,

The results of the fact find will determine what will be taken into account for the child arrangements order. If you are say found say Domestic abuse, they will look at how it would affect the child if they continue to let them see you. If any of the allegations are not found then they are not included in the decision of the child arrangements order.

 

[Ash]

I take it you've had the hearing but haven't yet had the result/Judgement of the hearing - is that right? If so there should be another short hearing for the results. If it is found against you, then at the end of that hearing you can ask for permission to appeal. That doesn't mean you have to appeal, it just means you've gained permission to appeal. If it's a District Judge then you can't appeal until you have permission to appeal. So if you don't ask at the end of the hearing, then it means the appeal process is much slower as you have to apply for permission to appeal before appealing. If that makes sense. Whereas getting verbal permission to appeal at the end of the hearing, cuts it shorter and keeps it simple.

The difficulty will be in preparing, because it's possible that some things might be found against you and some things won't. And you'd have to think on your feet. Appealing a fact find means basically that if your appeal is accepted, the fact find has to be done all over again from scratch. Which may not be helpful. Yes it'll give you more time to prepare to her newer allegations - but you may not have much evidence to refute those allegations. What it would give you time to do is get a barrister to represent you to try and win the second fact find.

So - if you don't appeal and it's found against you (sometimes some allegations are found against you and some dismissed) then there is sometimes a Section 7 report after the fact find. If you've already had a S7 report it might be a S7 addendum. Cafcass will make recommendations what happens next.

What happens next can vary. Sometimes Cafcass might say you can only have a regular unsupervised schedule, once you've completed DA courses. Other times they may straight up say that you can only have indirect contact - letters and cards.

But usually it then goes to a final hearing, and there is still an opportunity to argue against Cafcass recommendations - although that would be hard.

So in some ways it might be better not to appeal a fact find, whatever the outcome, let it go to a final hearing - and then if the outcome of that is bad, appeal the final hearing instead. Again you can ask for permission to appeal at the end of the final hearing, if it goes badly - to speed up the appeal process. But Cafcass recommendations after the fact find will give you an idea of what the final order might be after a final hearing.

This is all just my opinion based on the experiences of other Dads.

 

[mikeayo1891]

I take it you've had the hearing but haven't yet had the result/Judgement of the hearing - is that right? If so there should be another short hearing for the results. If it is found against you, then at the end of that hearing you can ask for permission to appeal. That doesn't mean you have to appeal, it just means you've gained permission to appeal. If it's a District Judge then you can't appeal until you have permission to appeal. So if you don't ask at the end of the hearing, then it means the appeal process is much slower as you have to apply for permission to appeal before appealing. If that makes sense. Whereas getting verbal permission to appeal at the end of the hearing, cuts it shorter and keeps it simple.

The difficulty will be in preparing, because it's possible that some things might be found against you and some things won't. And you'd have to think on your feet. Appealing a fact find means basically that if your appeal is accepted, the fact find has to be done all over again from scratch. Which may not be helpful. Yes it'll give you more time to prepare to her newer allegations - but you may not have much evidence to refute those allegations. What it would give you time to do is get a barrister to represent you to try and win the second fact find.

So - if you don't appeal and it's found against you (sometimes some allegations are found against you and some dismissed) then there is sometimes a Section 7 report after the fact find. If you've already had a S7 report it might be a S7 addendum. Cafcass will make recommendations what happens next.

What happens next can vary. Sometimes Cafcass might say you can only have a regular unsupervised schedule, once you've completed DA courses. Other times they may straight up say that you can only have indirect contact - letters and cards.

But usually it then goes to a final hearing, and there is still an opportunity to argue against Cafcass recommendations - although that would be hard.

So in some ways it might be better not to appeal a fact find, whatever the outcome, let it go to a final hearing - and then if the outcome of that is bad, appeal the final hearing instead. Again you can ask for permission to appeal at the end of the final hearing, if it goes badly - to speed up the appeal process. But Cafcass recommendations after the fact find will give you an idea of what the final order might be after a final hearing.

This is all just my opinion based on the experiences of other Dads.

Thanks @Ash . Yes the decision for the fact find will be next week. I'm just very concerned that with the sheer number of allegations its easy for the district judge to accept atleast one of the allegations as proven even though i thought i managed to disprove all of them. In particular i think the allegation of me searching for her address is likely to be proven as she managed to get a recording from the tracing company of me tracing my child's address. Even though i argued that it was my right to trace where my child lives, i feel there's a good chance that that is proven against me.

Another thing going against me is that my child has been alienated and saying bad things about me to teachers in school and saying his dad is bad and he doesnt want to see his dad. Something he never said before May 2023 when i stopped seeing him.

If one appeals a fact find is the entirety if the allegations heard again or the specific allegation that one is appealing against?

Also, do cafcass consider the nature and degree of the allegation that has been proven in making their decision? For example if an allegation of stalking is proven is then enough to have an adverse s7?

Also if cafcass decide only indirect communication or supervised and a final hearing agrees with them how long does this decision holds for? Is the indirect communication or supervised for life till child becomes adult?

 

[Peanut 21]

The allegations your ex have made are being formed in the mind of someone extremely unstable. I just can't get my head around why some women do this. Putting legal aid aside, I just can't relate to someone so hell bent on revenge that they do this.
Sorry, it still blows my mind the way some people act. I just couldn't be that way.
It's shocking they make these allegations yet they never once went to the police or GP to report it. Suddenly when the ex meets a new partner it gives them the courage to confess. Why? Yet strangely, they never reach out to the new partner to try and warn them about this terrible abusive man. My partners ex certainly didn't.

In response to your fact finding queries, you'd hope the Judge and cafcass would see through her lies.
My partners ex did a big list of allegations at the start of proceedings. Some dates of supposed incidents were days we were away on holiday. The fact find didn't go on about the allegations much and I'm pretty sure it said somewhere on the paperwork they weren't relevant to the child arrangements order.

 

[mikeayo1891]

The allegations your ex have made are being formed in the mind of someone extremely unstable. I just can't get my head around why some women do this. Putting legal aid aside, I just can't relate to someone so hell bent on revenge that they do this.
Sorry, it still blows my mind the way some people act. I just couldn't be that way.
It's shocking they make these allegations yet they never once went to the police or GP to report it. Suddenly when the ex meets a new partner it gives them the courage to confess. Why? Yet strangely, they never reach out to the new partner to try and warn them about this terrible abusive man. My partners ex certainly didn't.

In response to your fact finding queries, you'd hope the Judge and cafcass would see through her lies.
My partners ex did a big list of allegations at the start of proceedings. Some dates of supposed incidents were days we were away on holiday. The fact find didn't go on about the allegations much and I'm pretty sure it said somewhere on the paperwork they weren't relevant to the child arrangements order.

Thanks @Peanut 21 . Yep. Very very unstable woman she is. Its crazy how the court allows many women to get away with this. They throw every single allegation at you without eveidence and without a single police report. If the man was that terrible how come they allowed him around the child for several years and only change their mind when he starts a new relationship? They dont even put much thought into their lies as well. Someone saying you assaulted them badly and there's a whatsapp message the very next day of you asking when he will be joining you and the kid to swim at David Lloyd.

I can just hope like you said that most of the allegations are judged to have no bearing on the child arrangement order. Just trying to prepare my mind for the worst so that i can handle it better.

 

[Ash]

If one appeals a fact find is the entirety if the allegations heard again or the specific allegation that one is appealing against?

I believe it's the entirety - it starts all over again. But I'm not 100% sure. I also believe it's quite hard to appeal a fact find. I think when someone else was in this situation he let it go to the final hearing and appealed the final hearing instead.

Uncertainty is the tough thing in these situations and it's hard to know what will happen until you actually have the hearing. When is the hearing?

 

[mikeayo1891]

I believe it's the entirety - it starts all over again. But I'm not 100% sure. I also believe it's quite hard to appeal a fact find. I think when someone else was in this situation he let it go to the final hearing and appealed the final hearing instead.

Uncertainty is the tough thing in these situations and it's hard to know what will happen until you actually have the hearing. When is the hearing?

Thanks @Ash . The judgment is expected in a hearing by Wednesday next week. I suspect judge might order cafcass to do s7 regardless of whether i'm found innocent or guilty. Thats because 7yr old son says he doesnt want to see daddy , daddy is bad, daddy is planning to kidnap him to a foreign country
. Maybe a final hearing will come after that.

For that person that decided against appealing their fact find, how did their final hearing go? Did they manage to get something favourable? If not, did they now appeal the final hearing? How did the appeal of the final hearing go? How did they manage to get something favourable and undermine s7/fact find?

 

[Peanut 21]

I found a screenshot of the paperwork after my partners very first hearing and in the recitals it mentions domestic abuse. In relation to the exs DA allegations it says:" The court has concluded that is however not likely to be relevant in any decision of the court relating to the welfare of the children". I always assumed this meant they didn't believe her.
So hopefully you may have something similar as unless there's hard evidence to her claims they won't be given too much weight.

There will surely be a S7 as they have to take a child saying they don't want to see a parent seriously.
It's not right he's saying he'll be kidnapped. What 7 year old says that unless an adult has planted that idea.
Are you originally from another country? Have you ever hinted at going back?

 

[Ash]

I can't remember who it was or the case exactly - and also every case is different. I think Cafcass recommended supervised only and that's what he got at final hearing - appealed that, got a District Judge and got a regular order. I can't remember the outcome of the fact find though - I think it was findings against both of them.

 

[mikeayo1891]

I found a screenshot of the paperwork after my partners very first hearing and in the recitals it mentions domestic abuse. In relation to the exs DA allegations it says:" The court has concluded that is however not likely to be relevant in any decision of the court relating to the welfare of the children". I always assumed this meant they didn't believe her.
So hopefully you may have something similar as unless there's hard evidence to her claims they won't be given too much weight.

There will surely be a S7 as they have to take a child saying they don't want to see a parent seriously.
It's not right he's saying he'll be kidnapped. What 7 year old says that unless an adult has planted that idea.
Are you originally from an African country? Have you ever hinted at going back?

Yeah i am originally from xxxxx but never ever hinted going back. Been settled in UK for over 20yrs and no plans of moving back. Ironically its his mother who has taken him on holidays to xxxxx twice already

So with your partner are you saying the allegations werent individually decided as would be in a scotts schedule? I was under the impression that they will list all the individual allegations separately and then say "proven" or "not proven". Am just praying its all "not proven" and any "proven" ones are unlikely to be relevant to welfare of child.

 

[Ash]

Just edited the country name out of the last few posts

 

[Peanut 21]

Yeah i am originally from xxxxx but never ever hinted going back. Been settled in UK for over 20yrs and no plans of moving back. Ironically its his mother who has taken him on holidays to xxxxx twice already

So with your partner are you saying the allegations werent individually decided as would be in a scotts schedule? I was under the impression that they will list all the individual allegations separately and then say "proven" or "not proven". Am just praying its all "not proven" and any "proven" ones are unlikely to be relevant to welfare of child.

This was 6 years ago so just trying to jog my memory.
I remember she wrote a huge list of allegations. It wasn't even written out neatly like on a Scott schedule. All a bit vague with random dates.
My partner responded to each one with either "allegation refuted" or "was on holiday when this allegation was made".
The court did then order a S7 and fact finding but there's no paperwork to say proven or not proven.
Obviously every case is different so wouldn't like to say yours will have a similar outcome. But it's so common for this to happen at the start of proceedings.

 

[mikeayo1891]

Hi guys. Excited to let you all know that won my fact find. I was a LIP against a very vicious, lying, scheming and vindictive ex who had made false and fabricated allegations including DV, rape, sexual molestation, threat to kill, religious radicalisation, threat to stab child with a knife etc. And this was against some young rabid barrister with a sinister agenda. In all there were about 12 main allegations in total with several sub allegations underneath each allegation. The court did appoint for me a Qualified Legal Representative (QLR) who I provided with my prepared questions for cross-examination.

The judge said in their judgement that the ex was not a credible historian and had exaggerated normal things and commented that she had influenced my son as well.

The next step is an enforcement hearing (as mother had already breached interim order for me to have face to face contact with child once a week) in a few weeks time to discuss and agree/vary the interim contact. Court has also ordered for Cafcass to use the findings of fact to undertake a section 7 report (within 23 weeks) to investigate and see how contact can be promoted as child at the moment does not want to see or talk to his father.

The next hearing will be a dispute resolution hearing after the section 7 report has been completed.

Just to encourage anyone who needs it. It is doable but you need to make your response to allegations very clear and point to your evidence and respond calmly to cross-examination and direct the judge to the evidence and inconsistencies and lies in the ex's account. The burden of proof is on them.

Now I am required to send a position statement to the court (ahead of the Enforcement Hearing) on what kind of interim contact I would like pending the completion of the section 7 report. I need advice on what I should request in light of the fact find. Bearing in mind that mother has moved almost 4 hours away from me under the guise of fleeing DV. Guys I need your advice on whether contact centre, community, supervised, overnight stay etc will be the best at this stage. Bearing in mind that child has been alienated against me.

Not yet Uhuru as I still haven't won my case yet but this is a massive weight off my shoulder. What would you suggest I do or request that would help me get a very good final order in a about 6 months time when we go for the Dispute Resolution Hearing and potential Final Hearing?

 

[Ash]

That is great news - well done. I edited out the quote from the Judgement as that's a legal document and shouldn't be posted on here - so just summarised the outcome.

I take it you're not getting any time at all? I would maybe ask for time in a contact centre for 3 weeks then supported time in the community for 3 weeks (if you can think of someone suitable to support) then unsupervised time weekly. Technically there's no need for it to be supervised if her allegations are dismissed, but as Cafcass hasn't done the S7 yet you can suggest supervised for a short time and then progression to unsupervised. The contact centre reports should help later.

 

[mikeayo1891]

That is great news - well done. I edited out the quote from the Judgement as that's a legal document and shouldn't be posted on here - so just summarised the outcome.

I take it you're not getting any time at all? I would maybe ask for time in a contact centre for 3 weeks then supported time in the community for 3 weeks (if you can think of someone suitable to support) then unsupervised time weekly. Technically there's no need for it to be supervised if her allegations are dismissed, but as Cafcass hasn't done the S7 yet you can suggest supervised for a short time and then progression to unsupervised. The contact centre reports should help later.

Thanks @Ash . You might want to remove the quote from here too: https://www.dadswithkids.co.uk/thre...ated-by-judge-need-advice-on-next-steps.2658/

 

[mikeayo1891]

That is great news - well done. I edited out the quote from the Judgement as that's a legal document and shouldn't be posted on here - so just summarised the outcome.

I take it you're not getting any time at all? I would maybe ask for time in a contact centre for 3 weeks then supported time in the community for 3 weeks (if you can think of someone suitable to support) then unsupervised time weekly. Technically there's no need for it to be supervised if her allegations are dismissed, but as Cafcass hasn't done the S7 yet you can suggest supervised for a short time and then progression to unsupervised. The contact centre reports should help later.

Thanks Ash. Please what does "supported time in the community" mean? Is it the same as supervised or is supervised something different?

What about overnight stays with me? Is that too early and can i progress to that before the section 7?

Also should ex be paying for the contact centre?

 

[DadLad]

I would request ICFA and a co-parenting course through court and get it free with a glowing report to support your case.

I had doubts about ICFA but it has been beneficial.

 

[mikeayo1891]

I would request ICFA and a co-parenting course through court and get it free with a glowing report to support your case.

I had doubts about ICFA but it has been beneficial.

Thanks @DadLad Didn't event think about that. Is this usually ordered by court for Cafcass to organise the ICFA it parallel with the section 7 report or is this ordered on recommendation by Cafcass after the section 7?

 

[Ash]

DadLad's suggestion sounds good. "Supported" just means what it is really - it's like supervised but you don't actually need supervision so it's called supported - it's a step before unsupervised.