What is a 16.4 guardian?

[HAPPYDAD2]

Hi everyone,
I have just had a second section 7 completed. The conclusions the father should now have unsupervised contact. We need handover at a contact centre. Social services have reccomended a 16.4 guardianship.

This now means our final hearing on 1/2 November 22, may be vacated for 3 months until a guardianship is sorted.

What are the advantages or disadvantages a guardianship. Are Cafcass involved. Any advice good or bad much appreciated.

It is me who is requesting a guardianship otherwise future contact will be effected.

 

[Ash]

That means the court will appoint a Guardian (usually a Cafcass officer) who will monitor things - speak to both parents regularly, make sure the order is followed and someone for the child to speak to. It can be helpful - but it very much depends on the Guardian - some are good some are a bit woolly. Sometimes there is a later hearing and the Guardian is expected to report back to the court with recommendations. If that's the case and you don't agree with them (or think the Guardian has been manipulated by the Mother or is biased) you can cross examine them to prove their report is flawed.

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

Ash: The social worker of the s7 has stated that it will take 3 months to get a guardian and the final hearing of 1/2 November will be cancelled. When do you think the final hearing will be done? My solicitor has suggested a 1 hour court hearing on 1 November for interim contact to be agreed. Does the guardian complete the report before a final hearing. Can the mother go against the guardians report.

 

[Ash]

I don't know enough about this but I believe a parent can reject the Guardian's report - I am not sure how that would be handled if you have legal representation. It sounds a good idea to have an interim hearing in November rather than just a long adjournment. Are you getting interim time at the moment?

 

[Ash]

There's more about it here. Under section 4. What is your current situation? Are you getting to see the children at all, or are they alienated? If it's a case of alienation it could be better to ask for psychologists reports instead.

PRACTICE DIRECTION 16A - REPRESENTATION OF CHILDREN

 

[Ash]

I know one Dad said it's a way to get psychologists reports paid for. If the child has a 16.4 Guardian, they also have a solicitor, who has legal aid to pay for expert reports. However I believe someone else said that doesn't happen any more sometimes - so the answer to that is probably - it depends.

There's an article about it here

rule 16.4 Guardian – suesspiciousminds

Posts about rule 16.4 Guardian written by suesspiciousminds

suesspiciousminds.com

Is your case one where the Children are being alienated? Or is it the ex is "implacably hostile" and just refusing to follow court orders etc?

 

[StayStrong]

I know one Dad said it's a way to get psychologists reports paid for.

It's not. The cost is split three ways instead of two.

If the child has a 16.4 Guardian, they also have a solicitor

A v poorly paid solicitor, who may be entering family law for the first time.

Circumstances prevent timeline preciseness but I will now indicate a real timeframe:
Court orders G apptmt. From that point:
10 wks....Cafcass are too busy, pass to other provider;
+20 wks...other provider appts solicitor but no case worker (ie a G);
+14 wks....interim FDR.....still no caseworker, final hearing date set for 26 weeks later;
+11 wks....G apptd. Rapid, haphazard interim report produced +6 wks later. Final hearing date vacated.
At this point it is 61 wks after Court ordered G. apptmnt.
Ex rejects 1 of 2 report reccs. Expert Report recc accepted, another +26 weeks to produce.....no final hearing date set.

One other comment: it is straightforward to search pay grades of 'caseworkers' aka G's. They are paid £15.00 per hour.

I have nothing further to add apart from wishing you the best of luck.

SS.

 

[Ash]

I'm just wondering if you could get an Independent Social worker report (ISW). That's another way of proving alienation and another expert report that overrides Cafcass. Another Dad got residency that way (for parental alienation). It takes an expert report to prove it.

It might end up being quicker and negate the need for a Court Guardian.

Stay Strong your case sounds fraught with delays - horrific - I hope all cases aren't like that. Some may be regional perhaps?

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

I know one Dad said it's a way to get psychologists reports paid for. If the child has a 16.4 Guardian, they also have a solicitor, who has legal aid to pay for expert reports. However I believe someone else said that doesn't happen any more sometimes - so the answer to that is probably - it depends.

There's an article about it here

rule 16.4 Guardian – suesspiciousminds

Posts about rule 16.4 Guardian written by suesspiciousminds

suesspiciousminds.com

Is your case one where the Children are being alienated? Or is it the ex is "implacably hostile" and just refusing to follow court orders etc?

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

My case is a hostile ex. The section 7 recommended that I now have unsupervised with my son starting with 2 hours a week. After this a review will be done and overnights slowly added after 6 months. The mother point blank is refusing this. I suggested a Guardianship hoping they will see through 3 years of reduced and no contact.

I had a 2 hour observation with my son at the contact centre. Sw gave me a glowing observation and stated that the father can meet the child's physical/ mental and education needs and was going to state that in the final hearing. The mother has contacted me stating she will for avoidance of doubt refuse this due to historic child neglect and domestic abuse. Not true of course.

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

I'm just wondering if you could get an Independent Social worker report (ISW). That's another way of proving alienation and another expert report that overrides Cafcass. Another Dad got residency that way (for parental alienation). It takes an expert report to prove it.

It might end up being quicker and negate the need for a Court Guardian.

Stay Strong your case sounds fraught with delays - horrific - I hope all cases aren't like that. Some may be regional perhaps?

Ash: Thanks for your advice however, my ex has a personality disorder. You would have thought in three years a conclusion would be insight no chance. It has got worse now she has no control over him. He has got autistic traits so she has involved all the professionals. He dosen't speak and can have bad behaviours. Not good. So she says he can't say when alleged abuse started. Of course it has never happened. Thanks again.

 

[Ash]

Ok. So ongoing refusal to follow court orders. I'm not sure whether a Guardian is the right thing for this situation or not. Have you had legal advice? For this situation, if the court makes orders and she refuses to follow them, it can become intractible, it's true. And then it gets to make or break. Either they transfer residency or they tell you to give up.

What do you think is causing your ex's extreme hostility? Is she just like that? Or is it that you're in a new relationship or something? (Some Ex's refuse point blank to have another woman involved).

So I can see why you're thinking Guardian - someone monitoring things. My concern with a Guardian in cases of parental alienation (which may or may not be happening with your kids), is the Guardian doesn't always see the kids are coached and take what they say at face value - because they're not trained in spotting PA. They say vague things like the Mother's hostility is affecting the kids - but they stop short of saying - the Mother is emotionally abusing the kids by filling their heads full of lies. Because they seem to have this innate need to always see good in Mothers, however badly they behave. And because the kids aren't being beaten up.

I know with my case - it didn't come to needing a court Guardian but if it had, I was fairly sure my ex would manipulate the Guardian!

From what you say - it sounds like a good idea at this stage - the Guardian can't make your ex follow the order though. And if, as Stay Strong says, these things are hugely delayed and not really working at the moment ............ Another Dad on here has a Court Guardian in place at the moment and that was organised fairly quickly (although he's not happy with the Guardian).

So what are the alternatives? You say there should be a final hearing in November. One option could be - don't ask for a Court Guardian but just let it go to final hearing. If the ex has refused to follow the interim order then that is even more reason for stronger clauses in the final order.

If you have a final hearing, and win the case, you could get a 50/50 order and a suspended residence clause (although they might not do a suspended residence clause straight away but a good Barrister could argue strongly for it saying - the Mother is clear she will not follow any orders and it's unlikely she will comply with this one so there needs to be a suspended residence clause.

I think I'd be more inclined to let the Final Hearing go ahead in November and get the best representation you can get (ie a barrister). And get the best order you can get. As part of that your ex will be cross examined and she could be completely torn to shreds during a good cross examination - and in some cases that actually makes them follow an order - and never want to go back to court again.

 

[Ash]

Ash: Thanks for your advice however, my ex has a personality disorder. You would have thought in three years a conclusion would be insight no chance. It has got worse now she has no control over him. He has got autistic traits so she has involved all the professionals. He dosen't speak and can have bad behaviours. Not good. So she says he can't say when alleged abuse started. Of course it has never happened. Thanks again.

So she's probably an alienator as well as hostile if she has a personality order. Hatred forever and no insight or rationale. Unable to put child's needs before her own.

No Cafcass will not have insight into that - they are basically social workers who deal with black and white situations. And that is where you need psychologists reports. A psychologist would diagnose the personality disorder and recommend transfer of residence probably citing ongoing harm to the child.

That is another option. I doubt a Guardian would have insight into ex's personality disorder either.

If you are going to go with the recommendation for a Guardian, I would ask for psychologists reports as well. The psychologist report would override anything the Guardian reports (if they don't agree). Thing is - that costs a lot of money - psychologists reports. Maybe 10k or more. But it provides a solution.

You mentioned a solicitor - are you just using a solicitor or a solicitor/barrister team? I think you need the right kind of lawyer too - some of them don't even get personality disorders.

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

Ash: It social services who want a guardianship put in place so that I can have that opportunity to have unsupervised and develop our relationship. I assume that his autism may have something to with it. She is denying his right to have that unsupervised/ overnights. They may monitor her more closer. Like I said he is non verbal and has development delays, sadly. I have a appointment on Thursday with my solicitor. My position statement is due 28 September. 4 October I have an hour with my barrister at court chambers.

 

[Ash]

Understood . I was a bit confused as earlier you said it was you who had requested the Guardianship. And perhaps it is the right route. What I meant to suggest was, perhaps you (and the barrister perhaps) need to think through whether you think this is the best course of action. So the barrister can argue against it (or agree to it). Even though social services have recommended it, it is actually possible to argue against it - but I see what you're saying. It's part of the process. And the Guardian will see your son with you and be able to report back positively about that.

If your son is autistic, then social services will be being cautious about how things progress. Does he have any therapy?

 

[Ash]

Ash: The social worker of the s7 has stated that it will take 3 months to get a guardian and the final hearing of 1/2 November will be cancelled. When do you think the final hearing will be done? My solicitor has suggested a 1 hour court hearing on 1 November for interim contact to be agreed. Does the guardian complete the report before a final hearing. Can the mother go against the guardians report.

So that means another three months without seeing your son? Because the ex is refusing? Even if interim time is ordered in November, it sounds like your ex will refuse to comply with it. But if social services have recommended to the court that the final hearing is cancelled ...........is that the case?

I think it's more likely there would be a further FHDRA before a final hearing, for the Guardian to report back but I may be wrong.

When I mentioned psychologists reports - those are on the parents, not the child.

I think one thing I would be wanting to ask for at the hearing in November is - for a Guardian to be appointed as a matter of urgency because the Mother is refusing to follow interim orders and delays will cause harm to the child. Whether it can be done quicker or not is another matter. But I see your point - at least you might get to see your son unsupervised if the Guardian is involved.

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

He has funding for nursery and an Educational Health Plan is being put together by the nursery, the mother and ss. He is only 3. I am starting 27 September a 20 week parent weekly course on children's behaviour. The mother refuses any form of contact with me. This creates issues when I see him as he needs routine and structure. I have to continually speak with SEND officers, his nursery and ss to find out what is happening.

 

[Ash]

I am thinking about this situation again and it's been three years so far - that is a long time in a child's life. And it's dragging on and on. Gradually introduce overnights in 6 months? That is far too long a timescale. Even if your son is autistic, it can progress quicker than that (if it progresses too slowly there can be setbacks too). A number of Dads have argued for, and been successful in, getting a quicker progress of time ordered. Two weeks at a few hours, three weeks at half a day, four weeks at a full day and a midweek tea time. Then one overnight a week for 4 weeks, progressing to a full week-end and a midweek tea time progressing to a full schedule within 3 months.

Sw gave me a glowing observation and stated that the father can meet the child's physical/ mental and education needs and was going to state that in the final hearing.

And in that case it should be going to final hearing and a final order made. And if the ex doesn't follow it, you enforce and ask for a suspended residence clause. (ie if she doesn't comply then residency will be transferred).

So if it was you wanted the Guardian - did you say that to social services or did they just decide that? Because I think that glowing observation should be reported and the final hearing should go ahead in November. That's the starting point for getting things going. There is no reason certain other things can't be ordered as well - eg play therapy. But why should a final order be put off? It could be another year.

 

[Ash]

He has funding for nursery and an Educational Health Plan is being put together by the nursery, the mother and ss. He is only 3. I am starting 27 September a 20 week parent weekly course on children's behaviour. The mother refuses any form of contact with me. This creates issues when I see him as he needs routine and structure. I have to continually speak with SEND officers, his nursery and ss to find out what is happening.

That's good you're doing a course - it'll help with court. So he's three now - he'll be starting school next year. He needs stability sooner rather than later and a good parenting schedule is stability. He'll respond differently to each parent and I would be arguing that he can only benefit from having his Father in his life for a significant amount of the time.

 

[HAPPYDAD2]

Ss want him to have weekly "dad Days" on a weekend. The s7 was completed 10 September 2022.

The mother's judgement is clouded by her lack of understanding of her son's relationship with his father.
There is no risk of harm by either parent.
The child has a right to love both parents equally and have that right.
The mother puts the father in a no win situations. He is learning makaton and is starting a course for parents with additional needs. When the father contacted the SEND officer from ss and had a meeting. She condemned him for this for not contacting her. She is the main carer for her son and all appointments need to be cleared by her????