Trying to organise Child arrangement issues

[Bigredmachine]

Morning all.

I have the feeling I'm about to get into a battle with baby mother. Short and sweet of it is that he came from a one night stand, we have done paternity test, he's 99.9% mine and im in love and idolise him. I am on the BC.

He had a rough start to life but outlook is looking good, he's awaiting surgery on something but will be fine in a few months.

Things have been civil between me and his mum to a degree, she's been anxious about leaving him/me having him due to almost losing him at birth which I understand totally and have genuinely played ball with every wish.
He's 9 weeks now and I started off by having him a couple of hours at weekend and last 2 weekends had him for about 6/7 hours which has been amazing. We have put 2 dates in diary for next month for me to have him overnight (dates she suggested which I have found out she has nights out planned)

However yesterday she dropped the bombshell that me having him for a bit each weekend isn't feasible as she wants her family and friends to see him too as some of them only have free time then. Again I understand but then she said I need to start taking annual leave to see him in the week. I feel this is totally unfair.

At this point for the 1st time I suggested that once his surgery is done I'd like to get a proper routine in place for everyone's benefit (right now im having him literally whenever she decides/says so I can't plan anything on weekends etc) she asked what I'd like and I suggest an evening or 2 every week and every other weekend. She said no to every other weekend...

Her reason behind this was that she spent 4 months of her pregnancy thinking it was just going to be her and him (she refused having a paternity which set alarm bells off for me, in December I met her and got her to agree to it) so now she thinks "giving him up" every other weekend is "too much"
I asked what she would be happy with and I just got "I don't know" I left it there as I had the baby and didn't want my day ruined with that thought.

I'm just not sure on my next step, I was hoping to avoid court etc as so far everything has been sorted fine, I've made regular payments using the CMS calculator on time for correct amount each month (full wack as no overnight stays yet) and our relationship seemed to be civil, she asked me about going on BC and has a couple of times asked if I want him. I look after him fine when he's with me, he's happy, gives me smiles etc.

Myself, I'm in full time employment in a respected job, worked every day since I was 16, don't smoke, rarely drink, never been in trouble, CRB checked and at the moment live at home with my mum who is a retired foster carer and my adopted brother who was fostered who I have helped to raise.

Any advice here would be hugely appreciated

 

[Resolute]

While the child is this young mum can pretty much call the shots. A court would likely give not a great deal more than she is offering. In my view, court would take a lot of time stress and money, it may lead to things getting worse before they get better.

Short, regular time with the child is what would likely be on offer through the court, assuming there is no massive shortcoming in the mother - crime, substance use, mental health...

The big prize I see here is the possibility of having your infant overnight. If you can make that happen on whatever terms it would greatly strengthen your position. Perhaps you could say you are willing to take annual leave for an evening into the next day.

Keep a good record of the times you spend with the child and of how they go.

Bending over backwards, within reason, might be your most powerful play at this early stage. Having a record with the child before court would give you a head start.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Others may see differently.

Good luck

 

[Ash]

I agree that is still a bit early at 9 weeks to try and push anything. I completely understand you wanting to have your child with you more, but it would be better to keep things amicable with Mum and just get as much time as you can and be as flexible as you can - being flexible now will pay off later. Even to the point of occasionally taking a day's leave to have your child for a day midweek. But not every week if that's what she's asking. You want to keep her onside as much as possible so maybe just say you can be flexible around the times at week-ends.

If you can keep things going until the child is about 9 months old you'd be in a much stronger position if you had to go to court, and would have a history of regular time with the the child.

So maybe if you push for every other week-end now she may pull back. I don't think every other week-end is a good schedule for a child that young anyway. I had Saturday night until Sunday tea time for 2 or 3 years plus a midweek night. I was lucky that my ex liked to go out on Saturday nights.

I would maybe say to her that you agree that might be a bit much right now but suggest splitting the week-ends and you have time on either the Saturday or the Sunday, depending on what her plans are, and you are open to the idea of midweek time on occasion but couldn't take a day off work every week. You could maybe suggest a tea time, early evening time midweek.

To be honest she is probably right in that midweek time is important too. The ideal schedule for a child that age is to see each parent every 2 or 3 days. What time do you finish work and can you get flexi time eg to finish early one day a week - as then you could maybe have them from say 3pm to 6pm on Wednesdays or something. If you agree to that she might be more amenable to overnights. I think my son was about 12 weeks before my ex agreed to overnights.

 

[Bigredmachine]

While the child is this young mum can pretty much call the shots. A court would likely give not a great deal more than she is offering. In my view, court would take a lot of time stress and money, it may lead to things getting worse before they get better.

Short, regular time with the child is what would likely be on offer through the court, assuming there is no massive shortcoming in the mother - crime, substance use, mental health...

The big prize I see here is the possibility of having your infant overnight. If you can make that happen on whatever terms it would greatly strengthen your position. Perhaps you could say you are willing to take annual leave for an evening into the next day.

Keep a good record of the times you spend with the child and of how they go.

Bending over backwards, within reason, might be your most powerful play at this early stage. Having a record with the child before court would give you a head start.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Others may see differently.

Good luck

Thanks for this, not really the answer I was hoping for but it's all totally new to me and understand you're much more experienced here.

There are a couple of things I'm worried about however, the main one is not building a bond with him and him not knowing who I am. A couple of hours every week whenever she decides isn't the way to go imo.

Selfishly from my side now is how am I meant to have any plan in life? I can't arrange to do things as there will always be a chance she might just decide I can only have him that certain time. I've bought lots of clothes and all that but none he can wear now as he's not spending long enough with me.

I definitely have bent over backwards for her, I check in every day without fail to see how he is and if they want anything, all I get is "he's fine thanks" and occasionally a picture.

The annual leave issue is not really feasible either, I can't again just take days off here and there to suit her.

Am I being wrong that I should be allowed to spend a little time every weekend with him?

Also at what point do you think every other weekend I could get through court? I believ that's the least reasonable access?

 

[Bigredmachine]

I agree that is still a bit early at 9 weeks to try and push anything. I completely understand you wanting to have your child with you more, but it would be better to keep things amicable with Mum and just get as much time as you can and be as flexible as you can - being flexible now will pay off later. Even to the point of occasionally taking a day's leave to have your child for a day midweek. But not every week if that's what she's asking. You want to keep her onside as much as possible so maybe just say you can be flexible around the times at week-ends.

If you can keep things going until the child is about 9 months old you'd be in a much stronger position if you had to go to court, and would have a history of regular time with the the child.

So maybe if you push for every other week-end now she may pull back. I don't think every other week-end is a good schedule for a child that young anyway. I had Saturday night until Sunday tea time for 2 or 3 years plus a midweek night. I was lucky that my ex liked to go out on Saturday nights.

I would maybe say to her that you agree that might be a bit much right now but suggest splitting the week-ends and you have time on either the Saturday or the Sunday, depending on what her plans are, and you are open to the idea of midweek time on occasion but couldn't take a day off work every week. You could maybe suggest a tea time, early evening time midweek.

To be honest she is probably right in that midweek time is important too. The ideal schedule for a child that age is to see each parent every 2 or 3 days. What time do you finish work and can you get flexi time eg to finish early one day a week - as then you could maybe have them from say 3pm to 6pm on Wednesdays or something. If you agree to that she might be more amenable to overnights. I think my son was about 12 weeks before my ex agreed to overnights.

Sorry Ash I don't think i made my post quite clear. Im not asking for every other weekend right now, I made that clear to her that's what I'd like down the line.

I've had him either sat or Sunday the past few weekends, maybe a month or so but it was this weekend she said this can't carry on as she wants him to spend time with her family and friends too. She knows I work Mon - Fri and live an almost 50mile round trip from her I thought she would accommodate me. I don't know maybe I'm being unfair here.

I agree about midweek and evening time, with that she said just once a week. I just don't think a few hours once a week is enough or fair.

She is happy about us working towards overnight which is something but I'm really worried that she shot the every other weekend down the line idea down.

Isn't that what most courts advise for access?

 

[Ash]

Sorry I may have misread. But I would try not to think too far ahead right now about the every other week-end. A 50 mile round trip doesn't make it easier. And yes it's unfair if you don't see him at week-ends at all so I would try to keep negotiating politely there and offering suggestions - but keep it child focused - it's surprising how sometimes ex's come round a bit if you show you're thinking about the best for the child.

She should accommodate you and a court would probably order 2 or 3 hours twice a week at this age with a progressing schedule. Anything more than that is usually by agreement. After the age of two they would order every other week-end usually.

It is a long way to go for a few hours but if you keep her onside she might start agreeing to overnights. There is also time at week-ends for her to enjoy time with family and friends, without having the whole week-end.

Maybe just send her a text saying something like:

"Hi - re schedules for baby. I think it's important he/she still has regular time with both of us every few days, for his development and welfare, but also understand you would like time with family and friends at week-ends. I suggest I have him/her with me one afternoon each week-end for now, but I am flexible as to whether it's Saturday or Sunday, depending on what your plans are. I also suggest a midweek tea time - maybe on Wednesdays from 4pm to 6pm. Please let me know your thoughts."

Apart from anything else, if you do end up having to go to court at some point, you are building up evidence, via emails like that, that you have tried to resolve something reasonable.

I would start proposing an overnight a week when the baby is 3 months old.

 

[Raccoon479]

Hi, interesting post and I'm sure not a lone one. I've had some experience with the family court machine and it's horrendous for everyone, apart from the solicitors. I was forced to seek this however as my first ex refused to allow me access at all. I basically had no choice and lost a house and most of my savings going through the process. I would try to avoid this at all costs. However, it's early days for you. My kids are older now but I am still getting the run-around, which all seem to stem from whatever mood my ex is in. It's so frustrating, especially when you have to set aside time to have your kids. At this stage, I would be patience and embrace whatever time you have with your child. Someone suggested keeping a diary, which could be of use later on. What you may find over time, is, if your ex wants to have something of a social life, she will call on you to have your child anyway. This could work in your favour and won't require any effort on your part. You will have to see how that all goes but you could end up having your child more than you proposed, which is a good thing in my mind. If she re-partners, again, this could work in your favour too and you will be able to build a strong bond with your child. I believe as fathers, we aren't given the same consideration mothers do, which has been my experience anyway. It's much the same in Australia as it is here. The last thing you want at this early stage is to cause friction. I can understand where you are, and I'm sure the mother has valid concerns as well. What you will have to do at some point, is work out what is best for the child, which to my thinking is time with both mother and father. I do commend you for wanting to take part in their life, given it was a one-night stand, as there are plenty of fathers out there that don't give a s**t about their kids. I have worked in the prison service for a number of years and one of the saddest things is to see kids coming to prison to visit their dads, especially when they are so young and vulnerable and at a time when they need a dad the most. Keep persisting, but please be patient and do not ever EVER show your frustrations to your child, or their mother as this will only cause a great deal more pain.

 

[Ash]

That is good advice. You don't want a battle with your ex because it's not a fair playing field to fight on. I also parented from birth with an unexpected child from an ex girlfriend. This was quite some years ago when it was very difficult for Dads to get "Contact orders" at all and it was even more heavily stacked towards Mothers who got free legal aid regardless if it went to court and had automatic residency from birth.

I knew all that so decided to bend over backwards to get on with my ex and be helpful. And yes I did get more time that way because I became trusted and she needed breaks from the child. It depends on the circumstances though. If a Mother has a lot of family support and they don't actually "need" you to help out, it gets tricker. In that case you want to try and get the whole family onside. Even if you have to act. Be upbeat, talk about the child, tell her what a great job she is doing. That kind of thing.

 

[Resolute]

It can be difficult to imagine the lengths people go to when the family court process gets going. Even when there is a long history of a successful relationship with the child, the parent the child lives with often claims the opposite. If you go head to head with mum now, you would be coming from a very weak position. Once mum gets advice from solicitors this will become brutal and ruthless. If you can get through a period where your involvement is stable, or even better developing, your chances are greatly improved.

Solicitors make their money from lengthy contested proceedings. They will create conflict as a matter of course as soon as they get their claws into mum. Do all you can to avoid winding her up.

I learnt this lesson the hard way.

 

[MagicJ]

It can be difficult to imagine the lengths people go to when the family court process gets going. Even when there is a long history of a successful relationship with the child, the parent the child lives with often claims the opposite. If you go head to head with mum now, you would be coming from a very weak position. Once mum gets advice from solicitors this will become brutal and ruthless. If you can get through a period where your involvement is stable, or even better developing, your chances are greatly improved.

Solicitors make their money from lengthy contested proceedings. They will create conflict as a matter of course as soon as they get their claws into mum. Do all you can to avoid winding her up.

I learnt this lesson the hard way.

I'm in this position and it's so highly adversarial it beggars disbelief, every communication is fraught with the fact that it's all stacked against me no matter how polite and accommodating I am being.

Good advise if your position allows, after all pride & ego are worth nothing if it sacrifices your kid having you in their life.

 

[Resolute]

It it becomes unbearable and you feel like there is nothing to lose, a court application might be the right option. There is no point delaying court if you are getting nowhere informally. All of what I have said so far is based on mum playing ball and allowing a relationship with the child.

If you can work around her and get an overnight or two with the child. It becomes difficult for her to claim you are an absent father and that she is scared for the child's safety with you.

If mum allows a couple of hours or so a couple of times a week, with progression to more over time. She could be seen as ticking the boxes on what is reasonable as far as the court is concerned. A part of what I found, and sometimes still find, hard to adapt to is the utter duplicity and insincerity. I was used to relying on a measure of good faith, even where there is conflict. For some reason that often goes out the window when there is conflict on child arrangements.

Even if it becomes a struggle to get more than a few hours once a week. It could be worth doing that for a period to show your commitment/reliability and have involvement established before going to court.

Another factor to consider is how much you have to demonstrate that mum is clearly being unreasonable and blocking the child's right to a relationship with you. This is necessary to show that court proceedings are justified in your case.

Sorry this is a long post. I know you have such difficult choices to make and just wanted to share some angles on things in case one of them might help or inspire.

 

[Resolute]

Sorry Bigred and Magic, I have responded to Magic's post as though it was from Bigred.

 

[Bigredmachine]

Thanks all for your feedback and after a few days to calm down and reassess Im glad I didnt go in all guns blazing.

I had a great few hours with him last week and she even messaged saying I could keep him extra if he was behaving and I wanted to, so definite progress.
When I took him back she said it was the 1st time since having him she enjoyed him not being there and time to herself which again is a positiv.
she also mentioned that her mum and sister told her “it’s time to let go a bit more“ and let me have him, again another positive.

from that I now have him a whole day 12 hours this froday , an evening next week and Saturday all day and overnight until Sunday morning the next weekend. Progress.

 

[Ash]

That's really good news. I wonder what changed her stance. Maybe they picked up the vibe you might go to court. That is what you should be getting ideally - an overnight and day at week-ends. So is that 10am Sat to 10am Sunday or similar? Ideally with some time midweek as well even if it's only a few hours. It's still rocky ground though - so it might mean putting up with doing things her way for a while. Ie just go along with her suggestions whether it's over feeding or types of nappies or whatever. I'd also suggest giving good feedback after every visit - and bits that went well or anything that didn't go so well. It helps build trust. I found it annoying that my ex kept giving me advice on how to play with my son to build a bond but just sucked it up.

 

[Ash]

I do know of one Dad, whose experiences were shared with this forum, who did get a full 50/50 from birth, representing himself. He persuaded the court that because he had brought up another child from birth before, he was perfectly capable, and actually took his bottle sterilising kit to court with him to demonstrate using it. He clearly impressed them with his confidence and attitude.

It's better if you can keep it out of court though - at least for as long as possible.

To give an idea what to expect - you could be having the one day and night at week-end for the next year or more - hopefully with some midweek time as well even if it's just a few hours, if you can't get time off work. (Are you planning to move any closer? A midweek overnight would be good).

Possibly up to age two. Throughout that time you should look at having the child for longer periods for a holiday or during periods of sickness. Kids get all kinds of bugs. If child is sick, offer to help out to give Mum a break. Maybe in the summer you could try asking for 3 or 4 consecutive days as a bit of a holiday - if you have holidays from work. And a couple of extra days around Christmas time.

When the child turns two then you'd be wanting to move to something like a full week-end every other week-end - plus a midweek night - because two weeks is too long to go without seeing your child. So again you might want to think about living closer by then. Then your week-end could be a 3 night one as well - from Friday through to Monday morning. Meanwhile - enjoy.

Other tips to help keep things smooth are token gestures - like getting the ex a birthday card from the child. If both parents do things like that it really helps keep things positive. The same on Mothers Day and Fathers Day. I did that for years and so did my ex. Until she did something really nasty (and treated my son badly) and I couldn't keep it up then as it didn't seem appropriate to show my son I was approving of what she had done. So things became more "separate" then (we both had new partners).

 

[Bigredmachine]

I do know of one Dad, whose experiences were shared with this forum, who did get a full 50/50 from birth, representing himself. He persuaded the court that because he had brought up another child from birth before, he was perfectly capable, and actually took his bottle sterilising kit to court with him to demonstrate using it. He clearly impressed them with his confidence and attitude.

It's better if you can keep it out of court though - at least for as long as possible.

To give an idea what to expect - you could be having the one day and night at week-end for the next year or more - hopefully with some midweek time as well even if it's just a few hours, if you can't get time off work. (Are you planning to move any closer? A midweek overnight would be good).

Possibly up to age two. Throughout that time you should look at having the child for longer periods for a holiday or during periods of sickness. Kids get all kinds of bugs. If child is sick, offer to help out to give Mum a break. Maybe in the summer you could try asking for 3 or 4 consecutive days as a bit of a holiday - if you have holidays from work. And a couple of extra days around Christmas time.

When the child turns two then you'd be wanting to move to something like a full week-end every other week-end - plus a midweek night - because two weeks is too long to go without seeing your child. So again you might want to think about living closer by then. Then your week-end could be a 3 night one as well - from Friday through to Monday morning. Meanwhile - enjoy.

Other tips to help keep things smooth are token gestures - like getting the ex a birthday card from the child. If both parents do things like that it really helps keep things positive. The same on Mothers Day and Fathers Day. I did that for years and so did my ex. Until she did something really nasty (and treated my son badly) and I couldn't keep it up then as it didn't seem appropriate to show my son I was approving of what she had done. So things became more "separate" then (we both had new partners).

As far as moving closer thats out of the question, however a 30 min drive isn’t too bad, plus she has a lot of family in my town too so I can’t see that be8ng an obstacle.
Its her birthday next week (hence her wanting me to have him) so I’m sorting out a card and small gift, we shall see how that plays out with Father’s Day in a couple of weeks too, im not expecting anything off her.

I do want to keep it out of court also, not just for costs but just the stress and extra aggressio. We have been friends for 10 years or so, so I’m hoping that foundation will keep things civil, also we have the same friendship group so I think that could benefit also.

My only frustration is not being able to plan things for me, like days out on weekends etc incase she just decides I can have him. I know that sounds selfish but I still need to be able to live also

 

[Ash]

Its her birthday next week (hence her wanting me to have him) so I’m sorting out a card and small gift

That sounds great. I'd do it as if it's from the baby rather than from you. If that makes sense. So it's less personal and more about showing respect for the baby's other parent - it's obvious it's from you but it takes thought to say it's from the baby. Or you could put from you and the baby. Hence a card would be like a card a child would give and say "to Mummy" or something. Just a small token gift is all that's needed. Apart from anything else the expectation would be for a more expensive gift in future, if you did that now!

My only frustration is not being able to plan things for me, like days out on weekends etc incase she just decides I can have him. I know that sounds selfish but I still need to be able to live also

It is frustrating. I spend three years never being able to go away for a week-end because I had my son every Saturday night and Sunday. I just accepted it. I could go out on a Friday night or a Sunday night though. Or you can have a day out and take the baby with you, if it's with friends or relatives. But take the point it is difficult to make plans. I just accepted it as part of parenting a young child - it restricts your social life until they're a bit older.

 

[Resolute]

Thanks all for your feedback and after a few days to calm down and reassess Im glad I didnt go in all guns blazing.

I had a great few hours with him last week and she even messaged saying I could keep him extra if he was behaving and I wanted to, so definite progress.
When I took him back she said it was the 1st time since having him she enjoyed him not being there and time to herself which again is a positiv.
she also mentioned that her mum and sister told her “it’s time to let go a bit more“ and let me have him, again another positive.

from that I now have him a whole day 12 hours this froday , an evening next week and Saturday all day and overnight until Sunday morning the next weekend. Progress.

That is absolutely fantastic!

Do you have all the kit you need for having overnight? Things like a bottle steriliser, bassinet/crib/moses basket, bottles, formula, gro-bag, temperature monitor... If there is anything you need to get, feel free to ask for product recommendations.

Have you asked mum about normal feeding and nap routine? Mine was napping 2 or 3 times a day at that age.

I really hope this goes ahead, what incredible progress it would be.

 

[Ash]

Indeed feel free to start a post asking for recommendations from all other forum members - who have had wide experiences. Probably best to run these by your ex as well as she may have preferences for only using certain products. Personally I have never had a moses basket. I had blankets, a sofa to sit on, a play mat and playpen area and a cot bed.

The bed is probably one of the most important aspects (along with safe bedding). I also had a back carrier but hardly ever used it.

 

[Resolute]

I agree with Ash about making sure you try to replicate mum's way of doing things as far as reasonable. It would be terrible for her to feel the baby isn't getting equivalent care while with you and 'routine' can be used as a reason to oppose time with dad.

Some parents co-sleep and believe it would be cruel to leave the baby away from the warmth and love of their parent. Others say that co-sleeping risks cot death (SIDS) and should be avoided at all costs.

Here is what the NHS has to say on things if you don't get a clear take on things from mum:

Reduce the risk of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS)

Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), or cot death, is rare. Find out how you can reduce the risk even further.

www.nhs.uk