"Trial arrangement" offered - Advice needed please

[smithsmith]

Short version - I had a really loose arrangement with son's mother. Difficult in early years and she tried limiting to 2 nights a week when he started reception in 2021, despite doing a two day and swap arrangement during Covid. I was encouraged to gently change this over time - this was achieved and I would have him pretty constantly a 3rd or 4th night most weeks. I then got a partner, she made it clear she wasn't content to watch me build a life in 'her town' and eventually she really enforced the two nights a week and wouldnt drop him if my girlfriend was here. We are now approaching final hearing.
We had to go to court because she tried changing the final hearing date, judge tried to get us to sort it out, he really pulled a face when i spoke about 2255, said in his 20 years he's not seen that implemented - I now realise it's because it sounds too much like 50/50 which they don't like to hear for a few reasons (child isnt property to be split.) I just don't think I explained it very well. She was very encouraged by this but the legal advisor was also very clear that there's no safeguarding concerns and therefore no reason to limit child to two nights a week with his Dad.

Currently I have Tuesday overnight and either Friday or Saturday overnight with next day 6pm drop off, alternating the Friday or Saturday each week.
My offer is, with me Monday Tuesday overnight, Wednesday Thursday with Mum overnight and alternate weekends Friday to Monday morning. (2255 in other words, ha)
Her offer is
Week 1 with me Tuesday overnight, Friday, Saturday overnights, home 6pm sunday.
Week 2 - with me Tuesday and Wednesday overnight.
A grand total increase of one day over two weeks. 5 nights out of 14.

She is offering for us to trial her way until we have to submit to court in 4 weeks time. Am I best taking this trial as it is a slight increase in time and it starts us having him alternate full weekends which I know the court will want to enforce anyway. My argument would be that I tried this and I think my son should have the same nights during the school week each week for consistency? My worry is that if I try this, it might seem like another change too soon if they then add another night at final hearing. I'm considering referencing the fact this was offered but I turned down more time with my son in the short term because I didn't want to mess him about, which to be honest is true.

Please help! Final mediation is today but I obviously don't have to commit to anything.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[Resolute]

It is a very specific question. I am not sure there is a categorical right answer.

Was it at a FHDRA that the judge and LA said as you mention above? Do you know if you'll have the same judge at the next hearing?

The jump to 5 nights is not big and it is within the pattern to which your child was previously accustomed. 5 nights a fortnight is enough to get an order that the child lives with both parents. If the child has quickly adapted to one extra night, that could be an argument for rather than against further progression.

Although I can understand your reservation about going for her deal, I think it is better to be as close to what you want as possible. Being at 5 out of 14 by agreement would make it difficult for her to stick at the 4/14 she started on. If you are not going to get 50/50. You could just add the Sunday to your weekend for 6/14. I think it is best to be pragmatic and secure whatever progress can be made.

 

[smithsmith]

Thanks for the reply

It was at a hearing for her to try to change the final court hearing date, which was denied. It was a 90 minute hearing so the judge asked us to try to sort something out with the time we had.

It will indeed be the same judge because I asked for some consistency for the final hearing, which he seemed to really approve of! (The irony being I originally asked because I wanted a different judge that had heard of 2255, ha!)

 

[smithsmith]

Just to note she is willing to change to 5/14 permanently, but this is due to the fact she can see it being more than that so is trying to get the least worst scenario for herself. She's "doing it for me" apparently!

 

[nothernsoul]

I agree with resolute completely.

Any informal agreement you can get with the maximum time will be important.

What you're really doing is creating the minimum you will then get a final hearing. If you end up with 5 days a fortnight and half the holidays you've done okay but if you can get an extra night or 2 per foernight youve done brilliantly.

 

[bujanin]

Are the overnights working out well for the child, are they happy with the arrangement and the handover? I mean as you say there are no safeguarding issues.

It seems that there is an undercurrent leaning towards fathers being awarded shared care orders over the past couple of months but then again that could just be a flurry of folks on here.

Seems like an odd statement from a judge that he's not really seen 2255 implemented in 20 years. Is it that unusual?

 

[smithsmith]

As far as my son's concerned his interpretation is that he sees us about equally - he's always gone in-between our two houses (we live a mile apart) and we have very much a bond of me being a full time father to him. I just need the court to ensure she can never mess his time with me about again.

The 2255 is absolutely because of how I explained it (everyone in the room looked confused, it's honestly so straightforward but people seem to struggle to understand it when said out loud). It was very much the judge trying to tell me off for suggesting something that means 50/50 with numbers. It's their motif that they don't like that as it relates to a child being split down the middle like a piece of property. Lesson learned.

 

[Ash]

judge tried to get us to sort it out, he really pulled a face when i spoke about 2255, said in his 20 years he's not seen that implemented

That's absolute rubbish. 2-2-5-5 orders are made quite a lot. If he hasn't seen one in 20 years then that is odd. It suggests he thinks the Mother is the main parent. Shame you've got the same Judge but you could come at it from a different angle next time and not mention "numbers" as such but "schedules" and "proposals" etc.

I agree with the others to take her trial of an extra midweek night each fortnight giving 5 nights a fortnight. Then before final hearing (have you done final statements already?) you could say you feel your child would benefit from having the Sunday nights with you on the alternate week-ends, to have the opportunity for a full week-end away sometimes and to be able to go to and from school at week-ends with seamless transitions.

That way you might end up with 6 nights a fortnight. I don't see a problem with one midweek night one week and two midweek nights the alternate week. However the two midweek nights she's offering mean there'll be quite a few changeovers as they don't tack onto the week-end like 2-2-5-5 does. So if you got the Sunday night for your week-end he'd then be back with ex on Monday night then back with you Tuesday and Wednesday night.

So if it was just a case of "adjusting" which midweek nights it was by final hearing, plus adding the Sunday night (courts usually seem to accept adding a Sunday night) then you could maybe propose

Week 1: Monday and Tuesday night then Friday through to Monday morning.
Week 2: Thursday night (if it's Tuesday then you go almost a week without seeing them).

That would be:

Week 1 Mon, Tues Dad, Wed thurs Mum, Friday to Monday Dad
Week 2 Mon, Tues, Wed Mum, Thursday Dad, Friday to Monday Mum.

Which is 2-2-3-3-1-3 (but better not to quote the numbers with that Judge!).

The courts would normally order the same midweek night each week, unless it's by agreement. For example I had alternate Monday and Thursdays by agreement. Which meant I saw my child every 3 or 4 days and no long gaps.

I think you're unlikely to get the full 50/50 or 2-2-5-5 to be honest, because there has been a long standing pattern over a few years with the Mother as primary carer/resident parent, so normally it would only change to 50/50 if she's done something wrong. I would settle for trying for 6 nights a fortnight at the final hearing.

For some reason, ex's seem to like them back on Sunday nights, but it really does limit a week-end - you can be clock watching from lunchtime onwards kind of and it restricts days out on a Sunday as there's always a deadline to get back. If I could only have 5 nights a fortnight, I'd rather have the sunday night and one midweek night each week, but alternate the midweek night so there's no long gap.

Your ex might decide she's not budging from 5 nights a fortnight and offer you the Sunday instead of the second midweek night (at the final hearing). I would try for both. ie go along having had the 5 nights a fortnight trial and say you would like the Sunday night as well and adjust the midweek nights.

You want to avoid too many single overnights though.

Her proposal has a lot of changeovers - it's 1-2-2-2-2-5

Week 1 with me Tuesday overnight, Friday, Saturday overnights, home 6pm sunday.
Week 2 - with me Tuesday and Wednesday overnight.

You could argue at (or before in a statement) final hearing that it is too many changeovers and not a good schedule as child grows up and say instead it would be better as a full week-end with each parent, including Sunday nights, the two midweek nights being Monday, Tuesday and the following midweek night being Thursday, so child doesn't go a week without seeing you but has a more relaxed schedule with each parent rather than 2 nights and 1 night most of the time.

To be honest, 2-2-5-5 is better for the child as they get a longer period of time with each parent and no changeovers. If your ex is trying to avoid longer periods of time with you, then she's not thinking about the child and the number of changeovers. Every two nights back and forth might be ok up to age 7 but after that they would get fed up with it.

 

[smithsmith]

It was 100% the fact I used numbers. The mediator yesterday said "They just don't understand it".

"The same two school nights with each of us, and alternate weekends Friday pick up to Monday drop off" would have been better, but I know that now.

Ex wants to limit the overnight number due to maintenance. If it makes the judge happy then I'd rather give her the Sunday night as realistically it's just a couple hours til bed time; I'd get more quality time and time to parent with an overnight after school.

Son has always gone back and forth and genuinely I think he'd be happy doing a day with each but that's no particularly practical.

The legal advisor to the judge shook her head and let out a slightly exhausted laugh and said "there's no safeguarding concerns, there's no reason for child to only see his dad two nights a week". Ex knows I'll get the 3 nights so she's clutching.

Side note, I see my son a great deal as he asks me to go round and play football with him at his mum's which I do at least once a week. My point to the judge is that I wish to maintain that contact but without the risk of his mum taking it away at a whim.

 

[Resolute]

The thing I would keep in mind is to make it as easy as possible for the judge to take steps towards your position. I take you point about Sunday night only being a couple of hours and an additional school night offering more quality. But, the school night is a more drastic step for the judge to take against your ex.

If your ex is going to act on a whim to disrupt your relationship with the child. An order that says lives with both parents is valuable. It would give your ex less freedom to mess arrangements around, especially during school holidays. Lives with both could be given with unequal time. It is more likely at 5 nights and much more likely at 6. This would mean your ex gets her CMS and you get the more equal parenting role. The Legal Adviser's exhausted laugh suggests to me that this judge may be routinely dismissive of an equal role for fathers. Judges I've experienced have hugely favoured a default order, it is safe ground for them.

 

[smithsmith]

I'm going to do a other more specific post with more information as I write my final statement. This seems to be a no evidence trial, no cross examination etc. Judge made it very clear anything past four pages he won't look at - ex own statement for fhdra (10 pages with 50 points pointing out anything I've ever done wrong) clearly shows there were extra days that she took away "at sons request". My point is that the last year has been the disruption to sons routine and he regularly asks me to come over, to stay when I drop him off, when will he see me again etc.

Ex is already asking about changing the order in the future. The last thing she wants is something she is bound to.

Re legal advisor, I really think it was exasperation at ex not allowing more time but obviously I would think that, ha. Judge asked for her opinion and nodded along to what she said.
I got the sense in the end he was very fair minded and willing to be persuaded in the interest of my child.